The Pioneer rt701/707 were very well built units. 40lb well built!
Much more compact and less agricultural looking than some other units.
They could only handle 7 inch reels but playing at 7.5ips they are more than capable of delivering a stellar performance.
Best of all as they were plentiful when new, still lots of great examples around and prices are fair for a good working serviced unit, ($500 to $700).
Parts still readily available for most normal wear items.
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@vinny55 Like with all things, I try to keep to a lower budget. I have a TEAC 2300s. It’s seems like a solid player. I had it setup and calibrated by a pro here in the Greater Los Angeles area. It handles 7 inch stereo 4-track reels at 3 3/4 and 7 1/2 inches per second (ips).
When it comes to what sounds best, generally stay away from late 1970s and early 80s, everything else has sounded pretty good!
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Chakster, I'm totally convinced that whether or not you choose SS over tubes depends on your choice of music, and the aspects of that music which appeal to you most; in other words, I doubt if the two camps like the same music; however, if I auditioned those two amps that you mentioned, I might come to the same conclusion.
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@brettmcee at what tracks and speeds sound the best? What make and model are the most reliable and best sounding? |
To better illustrate Bretts excellent point.
I have a very nice copy of closer to home by Grand Funk on vinyl and same on r2r at 7.5ips.
My tt playback is no slouch but even on pioneer rt701 the reel is more satisfying in terms of depth and spatial imaging.
It just sounds more "real" Gor want of any better description.
Just depends how deep your wallet is on buying pre recorded reels. A lot out there but some crazy prices for real popular stuff like Zep or Floyd.
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@chakster
Some of the best tapes come from the 1950s and 60s. Classical, Jazz, Motown, R&B, Big Band, Vocal, there is so much selection available... The cherry on top is all the Pop and Rock from the late 60s and the 1970s!
Plus a well cared for tape from the 1950s (or any decade) will totally outplay the same title on a well cared for piece of vinyl. No ‘surface noise’, clicks, pops, static, or need for deep cleaning. No more of the resigned sentiment “I like the clicks and the pops, it’s part of the experience”.
With tape you just get the incredible illusion of real music being played for you. |
Chakster
You are certainly correct on cost.
But there are some great rare finds out there... At a significant cost.
I prefer to record my own from hires streaming. |
Reel to reel will always be great i love mine big time. |
@uberwalts you really need to check out Ebay for reel-to-reel tapes there’s more than you think out there @uberwalts you really need to check out Ebay for reel-to-reel tapes there’s more than you think out there There are no reel to reel tapes with music i can buy on vintage vinyl, but i am not listening to the mainstream, any reel to reel tape with rare stuff will cost more than my turntable. With all my respect to reel-to-reel format this is a problematic to find music i’m after. @orpheus10 Now that I’ve down-loaded my records to digital I no longer use the record player. The expensive NOS Telefunken tubes in the phono pre went belly up, and I’m not going to replace them soon. I replaced them with some run of the mill tubes, but you know how that is; you can go up the ladder, but not back down, I’ll have to live without the TT until I replace those tubes with the NOS Telefunkens. This is definitely not my scenario, i love to play records and i don’t like digital. But i have working telefunken tubes, probably the rarest of them (a quad of E84L and pair of ecc801s, both military versions from the 60s...). Honestly i prefer my solid state and no longer use tube amps or anything with tubes since i discovered First Watt, Pass Labs (by Nenson Pass). I am far more impressed by the sound of his gear than by those rare and overpriced telefunken in my ex triode push-pull arm after direct comparison in my system. |
Last week end I offered a DAC to my Technics RS 1500 US R2R, and recorded on a brand new lpr35 some WAV and AAC out of my SSD laptop Hard drive. What an improvement! The playback is fantastic, even at 7.5. Tapes or LPs, I really enjoy listening to the music while watching these 10 inches reels or the vinyl spinning. |
Chak.
you really need to check out Ebay for reel-to-reel tapes there’s more than you think out there |
I hooked up the Sony Video Cassette SLV 770 HF, and it sounded clean, loud and clear; no distortion. Beyond that I'm not going to compare it to any "high end" source, although the NEC I had was comparable to high end sources.
Chakster, get some "rubber cleaner" for your pinch roller, over a period of time you'll ruin it with water.
Now that I've down-loaded my records to digital I no longer use the record player. The expensive NOS Telefunken tubes in the phono pre went belly up, and I'm not going to replace them soon. I replaced them with some run of the mill tubes, but you know how that is; you can go up the ladder, but not back down, I'll have to live without the TT until I replace those tubes with the NOS Telefunkens.
I divide my time between computer playback and reel; although the reel is better, the play list is more convenient; plus the records were down-loaded when the NOS Telefunken tubes were functional.
Some years back, there was intense discussion on this forum in regard to upgrading digital playback until it was as good as analog. I took it all in and made the necessary changes including different cards in the computer, and the best equipment for down-loading records, as well as DAC for playback; my digital is very close to analog.
Those who haven't caught up can complain how inferior digital is to analog until the cows come home, but in the meantime I'm enjoying the quality and convenience of upgraded digital. Actually, since it's vinyl that was recorded digitally and played back through a Digital to Analog Converter, it's just half digital.
Happy Listening!
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I have been using reel to reel since this last december and have only managed to destroy one $8 tape (which I cannot find a duplicate of...ugh). But other than that i prefer it to handling vinyl. Everything seems to affect vinyl playback--everything.
To do it right, you have to manage static, dust, rumble, people walking, keep the needle clean, don’t bump anything, be careful how you slide the vinyl in and out of its selves, carefully drop the stylus, properly apply the RIAA curve (via one of a million different ways to do a phono preamp), dampen platter resonance, maintain tracking height, tracking weight, tracking angle, anti-skate, choose what type of stylus you want, how do you know if you have damaged your stylus or if it’s gotten old, deep clean your vinyl....
Tape has pretty much none of this. All you’ve got to do is get it calibrated once a year by a pro (or learn to do it yourself), degauss the metal parts occasionally, clean the tape path with lint free swaps and alcohol, clean the pinch roller with some distilled water every week or so and adjust tape position in or out if you happen upon a warped reel.
Nothing is near invisible with a tape player. Much is near invisible with vinyl.
Plus vinyl has an additional mastering phase and by the time it gets to your turntable it’s already like 3 more generations away from the master tape than commercially released tape is.
Tape path to your home:
Master tape>dupe master>tape you listen to at home
Vinyl path to your home:
Master tape>RIAA EQ applied and bass phase aligned and summed to center remix for cutting and then cut lacquer>mother>stamper(s)>record you listen to at home One problem: You can’t buy a good music on reel to reel tapes that you can always buy on original vintage vinyl today in one click on discogs. So the choise of music on reel to reel tapes is extremely limited, if you’re not listening to some pop or some other well known garbage you will never find anything on reel to reel tapes (with very few exceptions). This is the reason why vinyl is still in demand. It will be simply impossible to find even 1% of my record collection on reel to reel tapes. |
I correct myself, VHS-HiFi uses FM encoding. Great in concept except for the challenge of audio being a continuous stream which means head alignment is critical to ensure the playback isn’t hobbled with background buzzing. |
Isn’t VHS-HiFi just digital pcm? |
I became seriously involved in HI-FI VCR's after purchasing what I considered the best ever, it was head and shoulders above the rest, although I do recall owning a Panasonic; I know they made some good one's. After this VCR broke and I was unable to get it repaired, I was never satisfied although I purchased several Hi-Fi VCR's after this one; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmuL6AnO4SAUnlike most people, I used it exclusively for music, and other VCR's for the purpose they were intended. I think I'll listen to the Sony playing tapes made with the NEC and get back to you in regard to the quality. Too much trouble to put it in the setup, so I'll use headphones for the evaluation. |
At some point there was quite a bunch of Hi fi VCRs able to record Audio very well. They were there originally to play Hi Fi stereo pre recorded movies and sure it was a great improvement over ordinary VHS. First tape I tested through my AKG headphones was Silverado that was just released! What an experience! Could hear all the details of a very serious sound production. Don’t remember the make of this VCR. Later I became involved in video editing and used maybe the best S-VHS ever, the Panasonic NV-FS 100S. |
There is one vintage recorder that no body mentioned; it was my favorite, I owned one that was as good if not better than my reel, and it was more convenient. The one I owned was hi-end and I don't even remember the name, but if I took the time to look through some old magazines I might find it.
Aside from professional quality open reel, a Hi-Fi VCR was the best audio recorder around. I still have VCR tapes that I recorded on this machine. It broke and couldn't be repaired, but I bought a Sony that's still working.
By request, if anyone is interested, I could do a review of the Sony, and try to find the brand of the Hi-Fi VCR that was so good.
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Distilled water on the pinch roller without any alcohol? I doubt that would clean any residue off. |
I have been using reel to reel since this last december and have only managed to destroy one $8 tape (which I cannot find a duplicate of...ugh). But other than that i prefer it to handling vinyl. Everything seems to affect vinyl playback--everything.
To do it right, you have to manage static, dust, rumble, people walking, keep the needle clean, don't bump anything, be careful how you slide the vinyl in and out of its selves, carefully drop the stylus, properly apply the RIAA curve (via one of a million different ways to do a phono preamp), dampen platter resonance, maintain tracking height, tracking weight, tracking angle, anti-skate, choose what type of stylus you want, how do you know if you have damaged your stylus or if it's gotten old, deep clean your vinyl....
Tape has pretty much none of this. All you've got to do is get it calibrated once a year by a pro (or learn to do it yourself), degauss the metal parts occasionally, clean the tape path with lint free swaps and alcohol, clean the pinch roller with some distilled water every week or so and adjust tape position in or out if you happen upon a warped reel.
Nothing is near invisible with a tape player. Much is near invisible with vinyl.
Plus vinyl has an additional mastering phase and by the time it gets to your turntable it's already like 3 more generations away from the master tape than commercially released tape is.
Tape path to your home:
Master tape>dupe master>tape you listen to at home
Vinyl path to your home:
Master tape>RIAA EQ applied and bass phase aligned and summed to center remix for cutting and then cut lacquer>mother>stamper(s)>record you listen to at home |
Indeed uberwaltz.
I've seen a few fancy RTR that look kind of cool.
But the physical aspects of using RTR tape has always been a turn-off for me.
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Although you have to admit some of the machines are nearly "steampunk" in appearance!
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
Prof.
While I may agree that the physical beauty of many r2r machines can be lacking and the media is most definitely not sexy.
But there is absolutely something almost hypnotic about watching those reels spin at high speed and seeing one tape spool get smaller while the other grows.
And I do not need any eyes in all honesty, just my ears...... |
Reel To Reel holds no appeal to me.
Would I sit and listen to a system playing RTR?
Definitely!
Am I even remotely tempted to integrate RTR in my set up?No.
People may say the move from the ease of digital to getting in to vinyl is cumbersome - gotta find vinyl, physically handle it, put it on the turntable, get up to change sides etc. But for many like me, that’s actually part of the appeal - not the "work" per se, but I find the physical aesthetics of albums and turntables appealing and I enjoy looking at them and interacting with them.
For me RTR holds no such appeal. I don’t care for how the machines look, they are generally quite large and bulky, and having worked in film "forever" I sure as heck don’t care to go back to the hassle of handling/using magnetic tapes and RTR machines. And the tapes themselves...no aesthetic appeal.
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@ orpheus10
Don’t really see how a R2R is much less trouble than a turntable. Once the table is setup it’s easy. Unless, you are anal and must make adjustments for every record you play.
Pre recorded reel tapes are expensive.
If you record on a R2R it can be very time consuming not to mention a pain if you want to listen to a particular album on a ten inch reel. I remember having a few 10 inch reels full of recorded music but got sick of fast forwarding or backwards to get to a particular album. Then having to take the tape off and putting another on to get to another album.
My deck also had an auto reverse function if you applied a small length of metallic tape at the end of the recorded tape it would reverse. So you could get essentially 6 hrs(?) of music on one 10 in. reel.
No thanks.
I admit that the sound was fantastic though.
Like I said, I could have sold that rig for a lot more than what I did back in the day. I hope someone is happy with it.
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Regarding tape longevity,
I am reducing my collection. I have sold over 150 of my factory recorded tapes from the 50, 60, 70's. on eBay. I offer unconditional returns.
40, 50, 60 years old, they still sound awesome, no one has ever asked for a return.
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I have some great early stereo 50's R2R that slay the LPs and CDs. George Wrights' Razz Ma Jazz on Audio Fidelity, Red Norvo Quintet Naturally and the Hi-Lo's on a pre-Columbia tape Amazing clarity and dynamics. |
I’ve ‘had tears’ twice now with reel to reel. One a recording of Nina Simone, the other an Ink Spots recording—a group and recording I had never heard before.
Simply amazing! |
Long Live R2R.
Analog must involve physical wear. We deal with it, happily.
Analog simply gets the overtones right. That's why it is so Involving.
I play Sgt. Pepper's (anything I have in all 3 formats) on CD, then LP, then R2R. EVERYONE prefers LP to CD, and EVERYONE prefers R2R to LP.
Play
In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, CD, LP, .. now play R2R, you can hear him say "In the Garden of Eden".
Play 1st Moody Blues Album, Go Now, before Justin, when they were a piano based blues band. Hear hard driven piano, muddy/mushy on LP, play R2R, it sounds awesome.
Rare Earth, ... Anything
I play McIntosh 300 wpc transistor, then 30 wpc tube amp, EVERYONE picks the tubes.
Come over here, we will listen, you will leave with tears of joy.
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Brett
You could be right but I cannot afford Aqualung in any reel format!
Lol
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@uberwaltzSome 3 3/4 will surprise you! I think I said it before, Jethro Tulls Aqualung on 3 3/4 tape is the best way to appreciate that album. |
All I have to say right now is ... Ahhh!
Listening to Closer to Home by Grand Funk on 7.5ips pre recorded tape and it is really well recorded.
If buying pre recorded tapes I tend to only buy 7.5ips ones.
Very nice indeed.
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I don't know why radio stations play poor sounding 78s, even acoustically recorded pre-1925. I have 7,000 78s, 100,000+ on CDs and LPs superbly remastered and they sound fine within their sonic limitations.
As to the Masterlink, it is an adequate recording device. I don't use it for live recording. I use it solely for copying and editing recordings to CD format. I prefer DAT recording to RR for ease of use and have great recordings on DAT. |
That was a totally erroneous statement; a reel is much less trouble than a turntable. I bought a reel in order to listen to a number of records without getting up to turn them over, and as a matter of fact my first reel was an Akai.
Face it, you wish you hadn't sold it because you would really like to hear the pristine beauty of that Akai reel again.
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I had an Akai Reel to Reel deck I bought overseas at a base exchange Rota, Spain in 1981.
It was a fine piece and sounded fantastic. It even had a plastic dust cover that went over the reels.
I sold it around '93/'94 for what amounts to peanuts. This was before the internet.
I wish I still had it only because I could sell it for a lot more now.
I still play my records but that's as far as I will go as far as inconvenience is concerned. Life's getting too short to be constantly fiddling and not listening. |
I HAVE A FEW Reel to Reel prosumer decks, but I would make two points here. #1- I listen with great pleasure to VERY old 78's played on the radio here on WLRN Sunday nights from 8-12MN. The sound quality is terrible but the music is captivating and wonderful if you can get into it. Once upon a time there were ONLY tube radios and they were wonderful. They played everything- comedy, news, big bands, classical,
blues- everything. Or you went out to the cinema or took in a concert.
Clubs played all kinds of live music. The IPOD is not necessarily an improvement, nor is your phone. Which is how most people think they're getting such a great experience. So it's a matter of opinion.
#2- Reel to Reel is not dead if you have a studio-quality machine built to last a very long time. But that also means you have to calibrate it and maintain it properly. A Studer-810 or an Otari MTR series (or better) can handle tapes properly and play them and record them the way it's supposed to be. Then taping will be the least hassle and the most rewarding. Of course the deck will be heavy and take up space. Years ago prosumer machines were easy to fix or replace. But unfortunately
those days have passed us by. And I agree that 15IPS audiophile tapes
are far too expensive. Make your own at 7IPS from someones' vinyl collection. And don't forget to listen to Bessie Smith recordings once in awhile. They're sure to put a smile on your face. |
I honestly believe after cabling, music delivery medium is probably the least important aspect of a solid hi-fi system. If you have a properly performing and well attended to setup, you can get lost in well made mp3 files just as easily as tape. You might not listen as long, but a good deal of pleasure can still be had.
With tape, there is something so unmediated and transparent its hard to explain. As a delivery medium tape will just knock your mouth agape in awe and wonder. |
I have some 50s pre-recorded RRs that are amazingly good but transferred them to CD via the Alesis Masterlink. I've used the Masterlink extensively. Its OK, but is really an artifact of the early 2000s and not up to snuff with modern digital recording gear, studio grade reel to reels or LP. I've compared it side by side plenty of times. Nice for what it is though. I've got one for sale cheap. |
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Like Vinyl, analog tape is of course and older technology. Is it dead, well that depends on your perspective. I have a VPI turntable, Wadia digital, Tuner, and Revox A77. This is of course a mix of vintage hardware and much newer technology. To put it simply, not all available media is either affordable or in good shape but I do have some older recordings (family type stuff) that I cherish and that was recorded on m A77. I also have recording that were made from sources that are no longer available to me in any format.
Do I enjoy any format over another? Simple answer: they are all great given the restrictions or the very character of the playback device. Noise, hiss, pops, etc. are part of the media and enjoying the music simply requires a mental step; what's more important the content or the delivery .... I go fo content always!
Sam |
I own a Tandberg 9000X and Technics 1500, both fine decks. However, I rarely use them anymore other than playback. The Tandberg was used until the mid-80s to make very fine recordings. However, LPs and CDs are just too convenient and only the LP cartridge wears out (the lasers I've had last 5,000+ hours) and now approach 15 ips RR quality. I use a digital recorder since the 2000s and have used DAT prior to that for recording transfers. Most of my pre-recorded RR from the 60s and 70s are inferior to well mastered and pressed LPs and often well mastered CDs. I have some 50s pre-recorded RRs that are amazingly good but transferred them to CD via the Alesis Masterlink. I've appraised many sound studios and found some rockers prefer RR from the 90s to the present time. They can also afford using RR instead of digital (some major bands). |
topoxforddoc, Thanks to Google, I found this website you are certainly familiar with. Clicking on pictures makes it even more confusing. All the available tapes are from very short period. Roughly 1987-1993. Nothing that I could find from decades before that. I did not check those with no pictures, though. Almost like someone decided that nothing after 1987 was worth keeping and everything before that was too good to be thrown away. Puzzling. All are on the same tape (Agfa PER 528) which was probably the standard of the day but I wonder if every major company had really used only those to send to the local pressing plants. https://www.mastertapes.eu/jugoton-masters#myCarousel |
topoxforddoc,
I think I understand now where it came from and what copy it was. It was as close of a copy as a local distributing company could get to the original and it served as that to make actual records. That would make it, for all practical purposes, an "original" for that local pressing plant. That is what is puzzling me, why would they give it away? I know it may be impossible to find out about each particular tape. It just does not seem expected.
As life gives us surprises where we would never expect them, I got stuck with that particular tape of yours as it brings back a few memories. I visited that room a couple of times and I believe I might have been in it at the same time your tape was (just passing through as a curiosity, not much else). Remembering people there, it is hard for me to imagine they just threw the stuff away. Who knows, maybe they did.
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Glupson,
I think you have got a bit confused about the "vault". Sony, Warners, BMG all have vast temperature and humidity controlled vaults, where they keep the original multi-track and stereo mix down MASTERS. These never leave the record company.
Copies (in their hundreds) were made by the record company and sent all around the world to record pressing plants. When these record pressing plants went bust in the 80/90s, the copies (production/distribution masters) were just put into skips/dumpsters. Some of these got rescued, preserved, and now find their way onto the market.
Charlie |
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Thanks for the welcome! On a publication, if I am not mistaken the National Recording Preservation Board, at the beginning of the new millennium it was estimated that about 80% of human knowledge understood as music, data, writings, etc. it was still recorded and stored in analog form (vinyl records, magnetic tapes, etc.). So the problem for RAI but also for the competition is that of the enormous amount of data to be transferred and that is why they have taken all the available machines out of the warehouses. Furthermore, there are many problems of degradation and poor preservation of analogue media that require very slow and delicate technologies to read them and then digitize them.
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topoxforddoc, That is interesting. Giving away "originals" seems unusual for a record company when even hobbyists (as your example here shows) are considering them as good as it gets. Could it be that such a tape was, practically, stolen from the company while nobody was paying much attention? That particular place’s vault was not much of a vault, but it was enthusiastically taken care of. Not that you can find it out now, but it would be interesting to know which ways, and when, did the tape travel before it reached you. This is, it seems, what you are talking about... http://www.museumofmastertapereels.org/introduction.htmlAs you mention, it used to be tapes, then it was hard drives, now it may be Internet. As good as tapes may sound, vinny55 may be right, they are obsolete. Not for hobbyists, for everything else. |
In the days when tape and vinyl ruled the roost, the record companies would send a production/distribution master tape to Yugoslavia, South Africa, Mexico or wherever, so that records could be pressed for the local market. In due course, they sent hard discs, and now it gets sent over the internet.
When the record pressing plants closed, as everyone went to CD, the tapes got put in a dumpster/skip, or alternatively people took them away. The record companies had no desire to retrieve all these tapes, as they had nowhere to store them. Anyway, the record companies already had the original multitrack and stereo mix down in a vault. |
topoxforddoc,
I, kind of, figured out what that Jesus and Mary Chain tape was but, at the same time, am not sure what distribution master fully meant. If it is any kind of master that certain company (distributor in this case) got to work with, why was it given/sold away?
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