O.K. Lets get into this subject as I just argued on the subject with a reviewer. Most systems do not have the ability to resolve these differences completely. The user must have a trained ear in that they know what they are listening to and what it should sound like. Getting past these two hurdles is difficult as most of us look at the ticket of a system and then start our conclusions relative to that,this is not the correct way to listen for review/results. I have had the good fortune to audition many cable products on many systems for free!! Here is my take the $$$$ guarantee how much you are into your fixation,but not the quality of performance. I can tell you it is subjective of course,but to say that a certain brand is great in all categories is foolish. Here is an example,I am at a fellow audiophiles' home his 2ch system is $600,000 and he has a elite cable manufacture in his home to demo his wares.First we auditioned the interlinks and it was a pleasant improvement,next we move to power with and without his interlinks this was a let down but ever so slight was the difference,but the cost was an insulting $5000 for 6' power and it was muddy. Guess what my buddy bought $100,000+ of this stuff. Why did he? The manufactures techno-babble pitch won the prize. Example Oyide R1 ac recepticle tested agianst leviton orange hospital grade. I have a 165 lbs ferro-resonant power conditioner hooked directly to my service with 15'6 gauge wire at 220volts steped down to 120, it has about 14 outlets. I have a fiend over and I swapped an leviton for the oyide.The test was simple same phase leg,alternate between the R1 and leviton. First choice by my friend was literally wrong he picked leviton thinking it was the R1 being more transparent and open.His second attempt was R1 by brand but but for an exagerated detail in a stand up bass fingering,when I put the passage back to the original he agreed it was grainy and bright. I like to meet the man who can walk into the a room and identify the sound of a smeared sounding system due to the nano-second delayed release from a higher dielectric absorption! Has anyone run the test of the sonic properties of carbon fiber(buzz word)connectors?In conclusion yes there are differences in cables some make improvements that are amazing but most are not worth the value. Oh forgot to mention I do make my own cables and friends of mine have noticed pleasing differences.So I don't buy the hyped stuff ever.The Pear site is a wonderful example of tech-no hype. Conclusion cables do make a difference but are mostly over-hyped,10 gauge wire or braided romex for power is an low grade improvement compared to run of the mill supplied cords, acquired knowledge of wire and geometry is a skill that does work.
I was a none believer until recently. I was using homemade speaker cables using audioquest type 8 wire at 5 feet. Interconnects are 15 feet of Canare /Nutech xlr. My system is magnepan 20.7 with krell amps and AR Ref 5 pre. I auditioned AQ Comet speaker cables and Colorado xlr's. Frankly I thought wire was wire but yes I heard a difference. The speaker cable was maybe 1% difference but the xlr is rather big. I cannot listen to the Canare anymore. It's muddy. I still do not want to spend this kind of money even though I can swing it. So a compromise. AQ Rocket 88 speaker wire and Columbia xlr. Should be decent, I spend about half the money so let's me rationalize the purchase.
@ Dsper, A used pair of Taralabs, the one speaker cables would for ever change you impressions, at the cost of your system, these will be a good improvement for sound, I have tried this speaker cable on very cheap systems, always heard a significant improvement!
I have actually read through this ENTIRE thread so I must be masochistic.
My system is worth closer to $10K than $20K so some would opine that my setup is not very resolving and therefore I cannot hear differences in cables.
They may be right, and it is good to "know" that I can still make very hearable component upgrades without succumbing to mind numbing discussions about speaker wire.
The best products in cables can give a big positive influence on the overwhole sound of a system. And is worth the money. This is why I use blind auditions and a b comparisons all the time. I Always try to create the best sound for the money. These days it is very easy to let people hear a better sound with a source of 2000 dollar with a cable of 1000 dollar compared to a source of 4000 dollar with a cable of 100 dollar. But the problem is that the % avrage or poor products is very big. This is why people say cables are more hype than value. So yes it is true because of the many average and low level in quality of most cables. But you find it in all different kind of audio products. When the focus of many audioshops is making as much money as possible, you Always sell less quality to your clients. I have seen this in 15 years a lot and it makes me angry sometimes. Because I work at the opposite of this way. You need to love music and audio to do it the right way.
Bose is the by far the lowest level in audio what I ever sold. I call it a 4.8 ( scale 1 to 10) for the money. We compared it all the time with other brands. So who buys it? Often wenn a woman is the boss in a relationship. When you sell it, after some time you recognise the Bose buyers. Is it all bad? No it is not, after some time they got some credits. When you needed something 1 day later it was there. Prospects, speakers everything is often all in stock. Bose pays a lot of money on advertising, and yes this need to be paid back. So yess you get less quality for the money ( 4.8, you could get a 10 (A) as well) People often believe what they hear. How stuppid you can be? People are screwed all the time in the world of audio and vision. So use your own eyes and ears and don't let them fool you!!
I am not going to say that a person bought B&W for just the name. But.....I owned the 802N and the 800S. And yes B&W is incomplete. Why? because they do not make and use the best crossovers. I got aware of this because I could compare it with other speakers. I am a perfectionist and only interested in the best. So yes B&W is not able to give the absolute sound. WhY? Because a deep and wide stage ( which B&W cannot give) is an essential part for the absolute sound. This gives an important part in 3-dimensional sound. This is the most stunning and concinving part in highend audio. There is no discussion about this. This is said by a person who player for over 8 years with the best B&W speakers. They make fine speakers, still today. But not the best. It is as it is. It is just as simple as it is!!
@calloway : please if you want to be credible to me, you should use another example than cars! Cars are mechanics! Porsche use better engineering than Kia and it's not meant for the same purpose and use. Of course there is fame in car's business too (Ferrari is not reliable like Porsche for example) but it's mainly mechanic. Watches are mechanic too. There is fame too but you can't deny the engineering behind some brands.
Hifi is quite different. There is engineering but it's mainly a marketing and fame business! Usher audio for example is one of the best brand in the world. When you compare a CP-8571 to a Wilson Sasha 3, you buy the Usher! Another brand like XTZ for example uses the same drivers you can find on very high end brands for a fraction of the price! How can you explain the difference of price then? Of course you can argue on the quality of the component and the crossover craft. Usher work with Dc. D'apollito, probably one of the best engineer in Hifi business. And the prices are still lower?! When you own a Sasha, a B&W 800 or any other high-end speaker, you buy the marketing, the advertising on magazines, the shows... and a lot of FAME! One of my relatives bought a 805Di for the look and fame. When he tried it at home, it was crap! After comparing it with a BE-718, he cried over his bank account!
So anyone can think he own a system only for the performance but, deep inside, there is pride...
Often when I visit people at home they bought something what has good reviews. A review is often an opinion of a person. Or it has been paid by a brand. It says a lot less than we often think. And yes there are good reviews. But the % what is not good is a lot bigger. The other problem most people make in this business is that they do not know the properties of what they bought. Audio is the art of making the right combination of different stuff. And what I also see often is that people bought quite expensive speakers. Compared to the stuff were they drive it with. I say to all these people; you drive at about 30% of the quality your speaker can give. The % is often too low because the speaker can give a wider and deeper stage. It can give a better sound realims then the sound it plays at that moment. The speed and control is often not the best. Lack of resolution, or the instruments and voices are not that really sharp focusses. What I do is bringing in a amp which can show them the things they miss. Or call it a mirror to understand what the speaker can do better. Money in audio does often not say a thing at all. I compare all the time with other amps, sources, cables, conditioners etc. To open the ears and eyes of these people. So I bring it with me to show them. On and on and on.....
'Snob people want the better known and expensive system to show their money!'...so by your logic, using another commodity as an example, porsche owners only buy the porsche because they want to show off..?..not because it's a better car than, say, a Kia.. audio systems aren't jewelry. nobody comes over to SEE my system..they come to listen, and only if i invite them.they aren't interested in the price.
@bo1972 : We can't be more agree on that! There is a lot of scammers in Hifi business... And a lot of stupid customers too! People are more trustfull on marketing products than their own ears! Snob people want the better known and expensive system to show their money! There is a lot of futur business for those scammers...
Audio is not a fair business at all. In 15 years of time I visited many people with expensive sets. Many of them still play at an average or even low level. Why? Because often they are screwed by some people in this business. This is the thing I hate most. People thrust the people they buy things from. Many are only focussed on making money. Many of these people do not have a set at home. Often they do not have a lot of music as well. I met many of them. These people are those who dislike me the most. Because I held the mirror often for there eyes. That is who I am. Audio need to be more transparent and honnest. The positive thing I see in this business is that you can get a better quality for a lower price compared to the past. But the biggest problem is the high % of average or worse quality in audio in general. I love cables which are exeptional good compared to there competitors. Because they can bring new properties/ qualitities to the sets we own. Without you cannot reach the level of the absolute sound. For the non belivers I often use blind auditions. This is the only way to understand what they can give you more than when you would not use them. Audio need to be kept as simple and clear as possible. And this for every single person. It should be that simple!
i think high priced cables are too expensives but the problem is that brands value the result, not the real cost of their design. In Hifi, you have really nice designed circuitry in cheap electronics. For example, an electronic engineer i know is still really impressed by REGA circuitry. When he uses his measurement instruments on it, it's near perfect! Anyway, REGA is a fair brand but not really excellent. Sometimes some brand value the innovation like Devialet, not the result (Devialet is good but not a fair deal at all!!!).
My point is that you can create a good design without higher the price but sometimes, when you get a result no one else can equal, you can be tempted to rise the prices for it! High End business is definitely not a fair business and it's important to be well guided through this maze...
3 D staging is Always about accuracy of all the parts including acoutics togheter. But the differences in cables are big. They project the image differently wenn played by the same amp, source and even in the same room. So the question is; What is the right way?
The accuracy of 3D imaging quality of any system is afforded by the combined result of all components retaining a high degree of channel separation throughout the signal path. Any induced 3D imaging created via phase distortion, or cross channel leaking, is inaccurate, yet many like this sound quality.
And, remember, the room is 50% of what you hear 3D wise.
The % real good stuff in audio is extreme small. In over 15 years I do this work and visited many shows, dustributers, shops clients and even manufacturers I am still stuned about how much shit there is on the market. I first could not sell it to my customeers. But second it is often difficult to understand why people spend so much money for a low level in quality. It is a very important reason why I am still in this business. I love this world and I love high quality audio!
I tested many canbles in 15 years of time. In my opinion there are a lot cables which are average or even poor. So yes you can say that most cables are more hype than there value worth. But about audio in general the same thing.
regarding the original thread, hype may be a marketing ploy by manufacturers, or the result of owners' cognitive dissonance, but "value", is subjective.
my 2cents: just went from 60/40 copper/silver to OCC (pure copper) and there was a difference. Also, went from bi-wired to shotgun with jumpers, and there was a difference. Changed to Crystal cable inter-connects, and there was a difference!
So for sure you can customize the sound of your system with cables. If you have an issue with your sound - just ask, we all have answers.
Judging by the number of posts on this thread - we all have answers :-)
So you see women can have a positive impulse on the stuff we buy. In the past I had a Nordost demo of the SPM loudspeakercable. First he didn't hear the difference with his other Nordost cable. The difference was big to be honnest. What I did was learning him were he should focus at during listening to his favorite music. I used one of his favorite tracks. We played the song 4-5 times. And I told him were to focus at. After 20 minutes and some more songs it became clear for him what the difference was. But he said; my girlfriend plays half. So I said to him; you can lend it for some days. After 3 days he called back. He said; I buy it, we love it. What I did was what you learned me a few days ago. I try to keep audio as simple as possible for everybody. That includes women as well!
I don't think women have better ears. I think they are more connected with their emotions. For example, my wife aren't interested in Hifi but on my new system (based on Usher audio speakers and Music culture electronics), she cried on a song she already knew and listened on my previous system. The emotion was so palpable that she felt the sadness of the song. Women didn't think like men over hifi system. Men are "brainiac" and more connected on details, bandwidth, sound staging... Emotion comes after and not on every guys... Another story : One guy comes over to my place with his electronics (melody tube amps). He wanted to test Usher speakers. First he came alone. On a second occasion, he came with his wife to be sure of the improvement. His wife laughed at him after the first musical notes cause my system was WAY better than his...She mentioned the emotion and overall balance sound. He bought Usher audio MINI-2 after that...
The biggest problem is that most audio stuff is not good enough. So I understand that people are not convinced. In over 15 years of time I know that over 95% of all audio is not that special or good. But people still buy it. Wenn I visit some, you often hear a low level for too much money. Wenn you use the right stuff at the right way you can convince every person. Also women. That is why I Always focus on owmen. Women have a better hearing than men.But the interest of men in audio is bigger. So you need to triger them. That is why I Always have a lot of different music with me. So they can play the music they know and like. Quality sells itself. So use the best so it will make it more easy to understand and convince. You have to keep it this simple!
It's one of the most common leitmotiv in High-end business : if you can't ear it, you're the problem! It's so stupid to say that! Just say to the guy that he's lucky cause he's gonna save a lot of money in the process! On my system, some friends are hypnotized by the sound, some are not able to ear the improvement and many of them tell me i'm crazy to spend so much money on that! It doesn't mean they're stupid... Hifi is a mind game...
He was irritated because the person said to him: I do not hear the difference. It is how he hears it. So he has to accept it. The man of Nordost said to him; that it was his limitation. How stuppid you can be to use those words. The difference was noticable but not that big. So he did not give a good demo. He played with Odin, Niodeo and Raidho speakers. He played one of my cd's; Bruce Springsteen Brothers under the bridge. His voice was a little to big in proportion. The instruments were not projected in a lot depth. And I missed resolution at the words endings of his voice. Wenn I play it at home you can hear so much easier the words endings. Ending at a ssss, ttt or th. You could hear it, but it was not that clear. So I understood that the person did not hear it. The demo was not good enough. Many parts were you Judge a system at were not convincing enough. It was there fault and not the person his fault that he could not hear it.
@ Iblieve, You want an amp capable of 3 dimensional musical presentation for not too much money??? Try upgraded McCormack DNA-1 & .05 Deluxe Ediion amps. After Steve's upgrades these amps do it well!
The nice thing about cables is that there are so many flavours. Wenn you understand the properties/talents you can adapt every system to a higher level with ease. Average or sometimes poor cables will limit amps, sources, speakers etc. in the quality they are able to give. There are many people who are not even able to get more than 30-60% out of the amps, speakers, sources etc what they own.
I was this year also at a show were they did demonstrate this. It was even more funny. You could hear the difference ( I could hear it quite easy) But there were people who did not hear it. The person of Nordost became irritated that he didn't hear it. So he made a big misstake.
They believed in there synergy bullshit story. 100% Valhalla Always gave different limitations. But also with other cables in there line. The stage becomes smaller wenn you use full Nordost cables. Wenn I changed for examples interconnects to Kimber the stage became bigger. And the instruments and voices were so much better focused. Then I used blind test to see what people prefer. They Always choose for the combi of Nordost and Kimber. I am a person who Always looks further than other people. Many people stick to the nonsense they say. Wenn I hear limitations I will directly look for a better solution. Nordost gives a lot of resolution. But instruments and voices need to be focussed sharp were they are ar put on the recording. It does not give the palpable image as in real. Instruments and voices are a lot more direct to point out. That is why I Always did use Nordost just for a part in a system. Because wenn you use it wise it gives you important parts in your set what is very important. Nordost does not have all properties/talents what can be given by cables. That is why I call it incomplete.
During the Denver audio fest of 2010, I auditionned Nordost new power filtration system. They were demonstrate how it worked on a system. I'd preferred the system without their device!!! It was more natural without... I don't have many experiences with nordost but this one was quite funny! And the power system was insanely expensive by the way!!! Hype for sure...
What I said earlier VDH does not make that great cables. He is a funny person, but there are enough brands which outperform his cables with ease. And yess cables have also a big influence on the stage. I sold Nordost for over 9 years. And I did hundreds of teste with them. Wenn I played 100% Valhalla my stage also become less wide and deep. Wenn I had discussions about this with Nordost they Always became quite irritated. It is as it is, it is that simple!!
optimization is the heart of High-end audio! In that matter, cables are a major component of the system. I listened to a system last week. The guy use a REGA Apollon and BRIO R amp on a pair of Usher Audio MINI-ONE. He wires the whole thing with a VDH interconnect, and self-made PCs. For the trial, we used my Analysis plus big silver. After the first song, i notice a problem : the dynamic flattened the sound stage and a lack of high and low frequencies narrowed the overall presentation. I asked the guy to switch the VDH for a pair of Analysis plus's Copper oval in. After the change, the depth was back with a greater sense of 3D, highs and bass were also more present with more subtilities. The gap was huge between the 2 cables. And the Analysis is not expensive so not hype at all. The Analysis plus's solo crystal oval is probably one of the most valuable wire on the market for his performance/price ratio. If the system is neutral, the Solo will make it sing with naturalness and a great sense of pace. If the system is unbalanced, it will sound even more unbalanced!
Wenn a client emails his list I often can see which properties his set has. At show I do the same. before listening I describe how the image and sound will be wenn i play one of my cd's. Wenn you think in properties it is a lot easier to understand audio. Wenn I go to a client I Always first ask them to play 4-5 numbers they know well. Wenn it is possible I listen with him behind the hotspot. I get an idea about the image, sound and the way it performs in his acoustic. Then I use a few numbers to improve the individual focus and also the balance of the low freq. in the room. This costs me about 20 min. Then I ask him to play they ame music he strarted with. You can seet he smile on there faces wenn they are listening. Then I say: and this is for free!!
@Bo1972 : i'm looking forward to see those videos. It's always interesting to see other approach, mostly when it's a cheaper way of approaching audio High-end! You should offer a kind of training to spread your knowledge to more people! May be i should buy a plane ticket to you...easier from France!
I am busy now with a new website. The comming time I will start making professional video's about many audio stuff. I will make them in dutch and in english as well. So then you can see a face and hear a voice. Second step is also demo's. I also collected many review's of my cliebts the last time. So you will get an idea hoe they think about my way of working.
Cause of Audyssey Pro I also can create it in a worse acoustic. This year I sold 2 audio sets in a farm with the worst acoustic ever. But cause of using Audyssey with my way of measurement I got also stunning results. Superior imaging and also no harsh sound at all. Without it it would be a big mess!!
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