I haven’t seen the YouTube video of Paul McGowan answering the dodgy question, “Why is there so much snake oil in audio?” but have a good feeling about it. 😳
OK, having just watched the video, I get have the distinct impression, that’s he is referring to me personally at the very end, you know, when he looks very uncomfortable talking about certain tweaks that his “engineering mind” cannot handle. 😁
Which speaker did B&W make that was time and phase correct? I am not saying they didn't, I just don't recall it.
Also, there are others stepping in to fill the niche left by Thiel. However, they are not in the traditional sense like Thiel or Vandersteen in that they are using digital to achieve the phase coherence. Kii Audio, the newest line of Meadowlark Audio speakers, and the new Eikon Audio speakers shown at Axpona are examples of it. I spoke with another manufacturer at the show and was told that they would do a custom, fully active, digitally controlled speaker. The problem with the old sloped baffle, first order speakers is that very few drivers made were up to the task without use of notch filters, etc. and the cabinets can be complex to build. The advantage with digital is that steep filters can be used and out of band behavior can be controlled without messing up the phase. Room correction and equalization are all done in the digital domain, again without messing up phase. Drivers can be used in their linear band and system power handling will go up. That makes the selection of drivers that can be used much, much larger. Plus, the crappy passive filters are out of the signal path. However, there are trade offs. A 3 way would use 3 stereo amps or have the amps built into the speaker. That would be a tough sell with most audiophiles as they all have their own favorite amplifier and wouldn't want to not have the ability to change amplifiers from what the manufacturer chose. That or they wouldn't want the complexity of having multiple amplifiers of their own choosing. It is intriguing thought to have only a digital source, an I-pad and a speaker system and have first rate, fully adjustable, phase correct sound in your room. Change is tough because it is human nature to resist it. With the advances in digital processing, these systems appear to have a lot of promise.
I was paraphrasing, Mr. Smarty Pants. His actual quote is,
“It requires a much higher degree of imagination to understand the electromagnetic field than to understand invisible angels. … I speak of the E and B fields and wave my arms and you may imagine that I can see them … [but] I cannot really make a picture that is even nearly like the true waves.”
Besides, Feynman said a lot of things. Perhaps more relevant to the current case is this zinger,
“They wouldn’t have given me the Nobel Prize if I could explain it to the average person.”
"Even Theil (sic) went out of business." Classic disiformation in the context of this discussion. Thiel went out of business because after Jim Thiel died his partner cashed in by selling to a group of clueless financial investors who summarily discarded Jim’s time-aligned coherent source designs to pursue "me too" products aimed at the Lifestyle audio market.
The misuse of this tragedy to further an argument against superior speaker designs is another glaring example of a know--it-all distorting facts to further a flawed conclusion.
The fact that the author of that mistruth even spelled the company’s name incorrectly speaks volumes about the credibility of his assertions here on Audiogon.
rodman99999 @geoffkait - "Whatever"? I haven’t heard that retort to the truth, since my little girl’s mind matured. Thanks for the memories! You asked, " So what’s not to know?" No one KNOWS for certain, what part in the conduction of electricity electrons and photons actually play. As I said, " Electrical Theory is called such for a reason. There are a few, "Laws" regarding electricity, but- still much that is theorized." I’m trying to understand your rejection of that fact. ie(for inquiring minds): https://www.quora.com/Are-photons-involved-in-all-forms-of-electricity-for-example-when-it-flows-thr....
As Richard Feynman was fond of saying, anyone who says he understands how electricity works probably doesn’t.
@ieales- Yes, Sir: I never thought you were intimating that phase was the sole issue. Sometimes we think we've comprehension of what another's written, but- what we've understood, isn't what they meant. Isn't clarity fun?
@geoffkait - "Whatever"? I haven't heard that retort to the truth, since my little girl's mind matured. Thanks for the memories! You asked, "
So what’s not to know?" No one KNOWS for certain, what part in the conduction of electricity electrons and photons actually play. As I said, "
Electrical Theory is called such for a reason. There are a few, "Laws" regarding electricity, but- still much that is theorized." I'm trying to understand your rejection of that fact. ie(for inquiring minds): https://www.quora.com/Are-photons-involved-in-all-forms-of-electricity-for-example-when-it-flows-thr...
Wow, and I thought I could just put a CD on and enjoy my music (McIntosh and Salon's). Thought my system sounded good, but now I think my cables may be running backward, my system out of phase, messed up polarity, dry contacts (no paste), stock fuses everywhere, lack of cable elevators, etc. I can't even listen to that stuff anymore.
I suspect you’re confusing phase information with Absolute Polarity. The absolute polarity of the recording and of the playback system should BOTH be correct. If only one is correct the sound will be relatively diffuse, bass shy and non coherent. OR if the system is in REVERSE Polarity then recordings that are also in reverse Polarity then the sound will be CORRECT. The trouble is that there are no standards for Absolute Polarity so everything is topsy turvy. Of course phase is an issue too, and time alignment of speakers.
the reason phase coherent speakers aren't the order of the day is because the virtues of that strategem haven't acquitted themselves as highly important. Typically speakers that make that a cheif priority make detrimental compromises in some other facet.
IMO, given that a HiFi should come as close as possible to recreating the original performance, be it a well recorded orchestra in a great hall or a pop effects menagerie, unless the phase is correct, that is not possible.
Many recordings have zero phase information from over miking and effects. Some early stereo recordings are magical when heard on correctly phased system achieving an 'aliveness' otherwise not possible.
If accurate sound stage presentation and performer focus is a priority, good phase performance is mandatory.
Again, IMO, the reason phase is not pursued is it is difficult, and therefore expensive, and there is no point when most consumers are oblivious.
ieales OP I’ve heard it said a mother can recognize the cry of her infant
Not sure about humans, but definitely true in many animals.
Changing wire is no mystery. Differences can be predicted with math. Audibility, not.
Jury is still out on fuses other than acting as non-linear resistors until shown mathematically and all other possible causes are adequately controlled.
>>>Good Godfrey! Please tell me he didn’t just say that! Non-linear resistors? Can you hear me crying?
I've heard it said a mother can recognize the cry of her infant
Not sure about humans, but definitely true in many animals.
Changing wire is no mystery. Differences can be predicted with math. Audibility, not.
Jury is still out on fuses other than acting as non-linear resistors until shown mathematically and all other possible causes are adequately controlled.
@rodman99999 My comment on phase was not to suggest that it is the only important parameter but that it is so very important and largely ignored. Next year it will be half a century since Richard Heyer's seminal paper "Loudspeaker Phase Characteristics & Time Delay" and yet speakers are released every year that can only be described as incoherent.
@rodman99999 Yes many, many factors contributing to the final sound. Someone I read recently compared putting together a good audio system to cooking. With many ingredients in the recipe, it's their combined interaction that determines the final taste...good or bad. The character of one ingredient in isolation from the others isn't a reliable predictor of the end result.
One other "analogy" that might be relevant to the differences some can hear with wire changes: I've heard it said a mother can recognize the cry of her infant from a chorus of others. If that's actually true (no idea), might there be a parallel in the subtle (or not so subtle) differences some hear changing wire, or fuses or [fill in the blank] in systems they are very familiar with?
@ieales- Wouldn’t it be nice, if phase anomalies were the only problems/issues, that we had to address, in out efforts for good sound? Again- So many variables.
"If it measures good and sounds bad, -- it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, -- you've measured the wrong thing." --
Daniel R. von Recklinghausen, HHScott
An awful lot of gear has appallingly bad phase response beginning with the power supplies all the way through the loudspeakers andmost listeners are oblivious!
Phase response is almost never measured. Component variations may affect phase response more than frequency response. The ear is very sensitive to phase, less so to frequency.
Ahem...it’s not really the observation of electrons that’s the issue. It’s the observation of photons. We already know electrons are the charge carriers and are virtually at a standstill. We also know the mass of electrons. And we know the diameter. We also know the speed of photons in a conductor. So what’s not to know? Nobody has stepped up to the plate and answered the burning question, “Do photons have mass?”
@ghosthouse - So many variables(aural acuity/sources/systems/rooms/experience/training) and so much resistance(can’t work so I won’t try/won’t spend more than 50 Cents a foot for wire). Thus far, there’s no known metric, for most of the subtleties that wires and fuses can out, just as no one can really say, why two amps that measure exactly the same, can sound so different(to ALMOST anyone). No one has actually observed electrons, or- knows what’s happening electrically, on the quantum level, which begs the question: https://code.tutsplus.com/articles/do-you-suffer-from-the-dunning-kruger-effect--net-22227
Doh! Sometimes you gotta hit me in the head with a wake-up-stick. I'm with you now. Yeah...that's a low count compared to some of the deniers. It's amazing to me how exercised some people get over what other people HEAR!
Yes, there's always an angle to explore or ponder but it could have been word of mouth or actual experience with the product that led to using it, or any combination of events.
In the interest of balanced reporting, legendary Abbey Road Studio Two just upgraded their cables with Van Damme Professional Blue Series Studio Grade cables, obtainable on Amazon for $43 for 6 meters plus shipping.
Not to be a curmudgeon, but when reading endorsements like that I do wonder if Eastside Sound paid for the cabling or was it provided for "promotional consideration"? However I do agree, whatever the reason for their use of Nordost cable, they definitely ain't the only studio using something other than generic pro-audio cable.
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