Cable Costs Relative to System

IMHO it is all system dependent. First is the components for your front end both vinyl and digital. Then the amplification.
You can spend lots or little. The thing to do is borrow the cables and try them in your system. Change only one cord at a time so that the changes will apply to one one component at a time.
The amount of money you spend is a matter of personal budget.
Did a shoot out of various power cords. All of the power cords were plugged into the Audience ar12, 20 amp version.
The power cords tested were Shunyata, Aural Symphonics, Nordost, Synergistics and Audience. See my posts on my System threads.
The testing was done over a three day period and all cables were burned in.
By changing PCs on the Audio Research CD7 I could get more resolution and better dynamics.
I had several friends over for the final day of testing. All were disbelievers of being able hear any differences between power cords.
As the evening progressed they all became firm believers that the last five feet can make a profound difference on the music.
In my system the Aural Symphonics worked best or had the best synergy. It was not the most expensive of the PCs demoed.
So go and try different cables and see what works for you.

That my two cents worth.

I have a $2500 integrated, a $4000 front end, and $9500 speakers. My power cords cost $1850 each, my interconnects $6495 and my speaker cables $12500! Without the cables, the system is ok....with the cables, it is close to some of the mega buck systems I've owned over the years. Maybe more musical in some respects, if being able to enjoy more recordings is the bar by which we measure. I've done the value cables and everything in between...some are worthless, others are sublime and worth every penny! MIT's approach deals with the real world problems inherent in all conventional cables and does so with an ear for musicality. Transparent does a fine job as well, but in a more obtrusive way...not compatible for many systems and in line filtration used instead of parallel technology.

A recent study showed that when a $40 wine is compared to a $5 wine, the most important determinant of the taste is the price tag. Switch the price tags and people identify the wine with the higher price as better tasting. ALSO, the study found that as the price tags were moved, the brain actually showed heightened activity associated with pleasure that correlated with the price tag, not the actual wine being sampled. The article was titled "Want to improve the taste of wine? Raise the price." Study done at Cal Tech and reported by AP on 4/15/08. Most people are too far-gone to actually reason things out so this is for the few who actually hear no difference: don't be shamed or bullied into creating a difference and paying more. The percentage to be spent on cables There are several well-known amp makers who recommend NOT switching power cords. The president of my amp company told me not to use a power conditioner or switch cords. For some companies, it’s right in the owner's manual. Components use DC, not AC. And the DC is fed from a power supply, which acts as a storage tank, not from the wall. That makes the power cord situation especially incredible, but if people can actually cause themselves to feel pleasure when a price is increased on wine then there is no rational argument that will matter. The subjects were not lying; they truly enjoyed the higher price more even though the wine had not changed! If you can are emotionally able, do a/b/x testing and save money. I always do and I have found $3,000 speakers that easily beat $14,000 units. Of course, this is to MY tastes- that is a different issue altogether.
There are excellent cable article all over the Internet. I recommend reading as many of these as possible and then doing blind testing. There may be a difference, but you won't need to know prices to hear it. Of course, quality may make a difference but the percentage of your expenses dedicated to cables should be determoined by what you hear and enjoy. Be as honest with yourself as possible, after all it's your money.

If the V2.2's are new, they will only get better as they burn in. Nice Cables. You should get the MIT IC's too.

Well, my system must have some weird "synergies" because the best sounding interconnects I have heard in my system are the $12.00 Dayton ICs from Parts Express. I tried three other brands of IC, ranging up to several hundred dollars each, and not only didn't I hear an improvement, the sound seemed to clearly degrade. I did hear one improvement, however, but that was when I moved my source closer to the preamp and went from a 6 foot to a three foot Dayton IC. I guess I'm either extremely lucky or extremely deaf. Anyone tried these? At such a low cost it couldn't hurt you guys to test out a pair...

System:
Zero One Mercury CD/HD player
Supratek Chenin Preamp
Flying Mole monoblock amps
Zu Julian Speaker Cable
Zu Druid Loudspeakers
Zu mini-method Subwoofer
Home made Belden Power cords

Just hooked up my new V2.2 Oracles...never have I experienced such a large transformation in sound quality in a system! The improvements are equal to or greater than most component changes.

Aintitgr8, 6-9-07, makes sense in my book - I have $11k in cables in a $25k system and it sounds real to me, and I've heard systems 2-5 times the price with weak cabling that sound ring-ey and artificial.

I came across these the other day. List $3,400.00 pr, Has anyone had a chance to play with them.

Bybee Golden Goddess "Super Effect" Speaker Bullets

Thanks Don

It may come down to how you listen. When I put on David Ott's Symphony #4 or Shostakovich's string quartets by the Emerson Quartet I need to be a part of the music, enveloped by the passion and power of the performance. Polite, nice pretty listening sessions are ok but when one needs to enter another world...the space where the musicians created the magic, nothing I've used comes close to my experience with MIT Oracle interfaces.

I have to disagree with you Dave b. My experience has taught me the better your system is, the less you'll want mystery box speaker cables. I know of several fabulously honed systems, including some of the finest SET systems, and the most power hungry, like my own. Some use highly engineered wires, such as VD, Cerious, and Shunyata, others have DIY silver, or copper ribbon.

If your contemplating using non-networked wire, then DIY is a cost cutting alternative. I have owned many of the high end non-networked cables and have had mixed results Even the best non-networked cables failed to present the music in it;s full measure with unrestricted dynamic range, 3D imaging land ack of distortion..when I went to something other than MIT I was unimpressed! Transparent is more tweaky and can be a great fit or a horrible debacle. The latest MIT stuff is remarkable....one must have the desire to hear the magic and utilize the cables properly. In other words, the rest of the system must be sufficiently well put together to take agvantage of what they offer!!

"the question could be : how to get the most improvement in sound for a given sum of money ?"

That's easy - DIY

(but use one of the proven recipe's)

Enjoy,
Bob

i think a lot of the comments complicate the situation.

the question could be : how to get the most improvement in sound for a given sum of money ?

improvement is subjective and there is no definitive answer because it is not possible to audition every component in one's price range. if you can afford the cable and you like what it does, that should be suffiecient.

the cost of the cable relative to the cost of the rest of the system is irrelevant.

Just thought I'd chime in and say my current rig has north of $25K in wires...and I wouldn't have it any other way..really, I've tried the radio shack route and everything in-between, but the damn stuff is sooofreakin great!!! FYI- I use MIT Oracle V2.1 spkr and IC's with Transparent MM Reference power cords.

There are only a few people who hit on the common sense behind this question and thread. If you are looking at spending several thousand or whatever on a new component and you try the component in mind and can find a new wire you heard about that is the same or less your only choice is to decide which makes the best or biggest difference. Cable makes a huge difference up to the point where you are close to optimal. Some of the best cables are not the most expensive. Some of the most expensive are far from neutral which confuses the issue when you throw coloration into the equation. Use your common sense in terms of letting your ability to hear changes or differences determine how much you spend. A budget component system with superb but pricey wire can outperform a system costing tens of thousands of dollars more that had medium priced mediocre wire.

Hi RidgeStreetAudio, I guess my definition of a tweak is altering the existing equipment in some way to make an incremental improvement. Replacing the supplied PC with an aftermarket upgrade is in my view a "tweak", just as upgrading speaker cables and interconnects from what you already have to something that performs better is a tweak.
I realise a power cable is equipment in the sense that the component wont work without it, but upgrading to something better (and usually more expensive) is a tweak.

I use to think that cables were an afterthought, but as my system developed over time, wires became the weakest link by far. I have since adjusted my outlook towards cables, I would consider cables to be a primary component, like an amp or preamp.

inpepinnovations@aol.com, I’m not an engineer, just a music lover. Don at DCCA Audio is a cable designer just like RidgeStreetAudio and such. I don’t ask about how he designs his cables. That is why I hire him to make me my cables. I tell him what I want and he sends them to me. Why don’t you e-mail him and ask him a few questions and maybe demo some of his fine cables and find out for yourself.

Metro04, I tell Don at DCCA Audio what audio qualities I enjoy and what type of sound I am looking for. I also provide custom specs of how long the cable should be and the connector positions so the cables fit perfectly in my rack. DCCA sends them to me and I take a listen on my system. I made requests of any changes in sound quaities and I send them back for adjustment. The cables come back tailored to my specific likings for my specific system. These are my experiences and this is what worked for me. I'm just passing on my findings. I'm happy and that is all that is important.

Enough said let's move on...

So, Joeyboynj, Don knows how those effects work, but is keeping it secret from you?

Bob P.

Joeyboynj, How does one go about specifying desired cable performance? Does one merely provide one's equipment make, model number(s), and any available specs? Since the consensus is that cables are component or system-dependant, how does a cable designer/manufacturer guarantee a cables performance without utilizing the customers actual components?

Just curious how the process works.

To inpepinnovations@aol.com,
I contact Don at DCCA Audio and specify how I want my PC's to sound and he makes them for me exactly how I ask. Thats how.

Here is another angle on how to consider power cords and why they affect our systems. Robert commented on thinking of the cable as a circuit, perhaps a different word for the same concept is a filter. I have a friend who first introduced this word to me a few years ago to describing audio cables. (Power, interconnects and speaker cables) Here is the logic and why this word made sense to me.

A cable can not "add" to the signal, it is only able to degrade the signal. In the perfect world the signal would be carried from point "A" to point "B" with no alteration. I hope we can all agree this is not functionally possible, although we might read various hype that claims to have solved it.

The fact is, no matter how a cable is constructed, it will have some impact on the signal being carried. The wire matters, the gauge and make up both affect the signal. The dialectic (material around the wire) impacts the signal as it possesses different electrical "storage" potential, thus altering the signal electrically. The shielding will affect the signal "electrically" and shield the signal from outside interference.

Please understand my lay person logic and language towards these issues. I am not an engineer or even a simply electrical hobbyist. My views are quite naive, I understand this. Please look beyond this for the concept and not attack me for misusage of the words I chose to relay the concept.

It all matters, in the example of power cable, the newest designs are quite elaborate in their designs. The weave or braid being incorporated to bundle wires are often very complex and have sound logic in noise rejection. Not only are these configured as a straight filter in the wire interface, but they often have very elaborate dielectric and shielding designs that both reject outside interference and absorb line bound noise within the conductor.

I realize the science to explain the concepts being developed are behind the actual practice. In audio I believe the hobbyist often discovers things through trial and error. This is then elaborated on through the hobbyist, and eventually an engineer might try to explain what is happening. The problem many of the scientist are having (In my opinion) is the language does not yet exist to describe what we hobbyists’ are hearing.

Now I understand this conversation has now gone into the place where arguments start, but this is not my intent. I am just trying to explain a concept that is very logical to me, and helps me move beyond the argument and “science” to the enjoy the result level.

I have a very dear old Audiogon friend in New Zealand who keeps in touch with me. He has been a DIY hobbyist for years, and through experimenting has developed some excellent results. He was at lunch one day and the topic of cable performance came up. Well, one thing lead to another, but the result was he ended up meeting with a professor at the University in Auckland. This man has been researching the science behind the very issues we have been arguing over for the past ten years. Turns out there is A LOT of science behind what we are hearing. In a quantum physics world, micro and nano vibration have measurable affects on electrical signals. These affects have not been explained because first we did not know they existed, and secondly we had no equipment to measure it.

The point is, this man plans on publishing a paper regarding exactly what we have been asking for, but his findings will not be released for about a year. It turns out there are many scientists in our Universities who are studying these issues to help resolve signal transfer brought on by nano technology. The smaller the circuit for example, the larger the quantum noise and movements affect the circuit. Perhaps the most logical example is with nano tubes. When an electrical signal is passed through a nano tube , the electrons that were in a complex interaction all line up and quite down. This of course will reduce heat (which is primarily what these scientist are concerned with) but it will also reduce noise. I do not know how much the noise issue will be of interest to these scientists, but it is of interest to us.

Of course one man amongst us has understood these concepts for many years. Jack Bybee has developed products that work on quantum noise. The sad thing is instead of embracing this man, we ridiculed him because he had no science. Fact is he has a great deal of science behind his thinking, and fact is much of it remains classified.

The point is, the science and measurements are being worked on. Now my question is; should we ignore the results we hear because the science is lagging behind? Or should we continue to experiment through the hobbyist mentality of trial and error and enjoy the results of our fellow hobbyists‘?

Robert is one of these men who chose to embrace the results of his experiments and chose to share these findings with the community by starting a company. This is how 90% of this hobby is developed and how it advances.

My concept is to enjoy the results. The science will come, but to simply ignore the elephant in the room because no one knows what it is or how to explain its existence is a bit silly. Some day we will have the evolutionary classification behind the elephant, and we will have volumes of documentation to describe how this beast came to be, and how to measure it scientifically, but for now I am just going to accept that it indeed exists, and that is really all the proof I need.

jd

Carl Wrote:

...I will endeavour to listen and compare PC's when I can and trust my ears, which is I guess all any of us can do."

Good for you Carl.

I trust you'll hear the importance of what good AC cords can bring to the table. When you experience that, remember this that I'll share with you: First, cables are not a "tweak" as it appears you suggest. A tweak (or an accessory) is something your system can perform with or without. Equipment is stuff that your system needs in order to function. Cables are equipment. In context of that, I've firmly come to the conclusion that good AC cords are foundational to a music system. Before any other partnering cabling, they can begin to show what a given music system is capable of.

Sound crazy? Yea, I suppose so. We expect to be emotionally impacted by out system's playback. Not so much intellectually stimulated by understanding all the whys of performance. Like going to a good concert - You come away with "Man...that was Good!" Not "Boy...that was Right!" Easy enough to understand to some degree why S/Cs or I/Cs might contribute to our emotional experience without becoming an EE. Simple as they may seem, AC cords a another story. It doesn't as readily make sense that a power cord can do wonders for a system. They need to be looked at differently than S/Cs or I/Cs. Understandably, many enthusiasts don't care to know all the intellectual reasons why an AC cord can allow a system to operate more efficiently. After a ragged day at work, most of us just want to settle down with maybe a good glass of wine and be emotionally nurtured with some good music. Not come home and do more work by testing dielectrics for capacitors, write the charts of our music collection or study wire theories. We really don't care so much if we can grasp all the workings of our music system. It's more about "Is this thing making music magical to me?". Add power cords as an important means to get there.

You might get a kick out of this: Some years ago, I dismissed the importance of power cords. Hell, almost twenty years ago I dismissed wire period. Today, I place AC cords at the top of cable or system hierarchy. That's quite a turn about. As it goes on these boards sometimes, I can hear it - Perhaps one would say of cable manufacturers (us included) "Well duh!, you make yer bucks from sellin' cables. You gotta promote AC cords." That's not true - take AC cords out of a product line and, if you're good at what you do, you'd still have a business that's worth the effort and that makes a good difference for folks. I would also counter by saying that many passionate high end manufacturers produce products out of what they themselves use. Not what can I make to turn a buck. They trust their "creation" would be of value to others and offer it in the market place. The market bears whether there's any value of one's efforts and the buck takes care of itself. Win/Win for everyone.

Anyway, I hope there's a bit of insight for you here. Let us know what you find when you get to auditioning some power cords. Might be useful for others.

Cheers!

Robert
RSAD

To Ridgestreetaudio, I appreciate all your replies, and I take on board the fact that many audiophiles genuinely hear a difference with every tweak they make to their system; I recently upgraded my speaker cables and can hear a definite improvement to my system's dynamics and a crisper top end. My argument doesn't apply to speaker cables and interconnects.

I guess my issue with power cords is this:
If you look at speaker cables, these form the entire link between amplifier and speaker, and therefore their impact on the signal can be profound. A PC, on the other hand, constitutes only a fraction of the AC power "loop" that extends all the way from the power generator to your components - an extension cord, in effect - and I therefore can't see how it can possibly impact on a system's sound. Not to mention the fact that the power supplies within high end gear should be able to have a greater smoothing and calming effect on the power supply than a few feet of power cord.

However, I will endeavour to listen and compare PC's when I can and trust my ears, which is I guess all any of us can do.

Thanks for an interesting debate.

Carl...

Sorry friend - no one is likely going to spend time trying to convince you. Judging the content of your responses, you already have your mind made up.

If you really and honestly wanted to know, it seems you would do what others have done to become convinced or not: Listen. If you want "Evidence", it will be in your taking the time to listen. Research or documentation is not evidence. It only predicts or explains something. Research and documentation is readily available if you took some time to search it out but I bet you'd dismiss it as some type of hype.

I said "If you consider a line cord as a type of circuit rather than wire, there lies the answer." This is true but instead of "considering" it to maybe lead to some discover for yourself, you dismissed it.

Between all the different price points of after market AC cords of good reputation and the return policies many of them come with, using your ears to provide evidence seems like a "no brainer" with no risk.

If you've listened to a few well regarded after market cords and heard no difference, then be content with your experience and go enjoy your music. Be kind to remember this though:

The universe does not revolve around your experience or only what you're willing or able to grasp.

Liver and Onions tastes bad. I can't taste anything good about it. I hear there's reports that say it's an American favorite and it's got some nutrition in it. I tastes bad. My Wife loves Liver and Onions. So I punched her in the boob and divorced her.

Best to you,
Robert
RSAD

I'm afraid I'll just have to wait for someone who does have the time to post some evidence. It must be nice to have endless funds to experiment with many different power cords "no matter how much they cost" and "custom made to my specs" as Joeyboynj does, but many of us need a little more than faith to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on a power cord that may or may not do anything to an audio system.

Once again, if anyone can direct me to any research/evidence on this topic, I'll happily be educated and corrected.

Joeyboynj, pray tell us how you specify your PCs if you don't know how or why they change the sound.

Hi Carl.

..."I spent $1000 on a power cord and Wow!", it sounds like "I spent $1000 on a power cord and it sounds no different but I don't want to admit I got conned by the HiFi shop."

You're right, it does sound just like that! Some enthusiasts are so ashamed of being so duped they won't even exercise the money back policy many manufacturers and I assume some retailers offer.

We had one poor soul buy four line cords from us and after some time called us to say how awesome his system was sounding. I knew what he was really saying and I felt really bad for him so I apologized. He bought two more. Poor guy must have a real victim mentality that he thrives on.

I apologize to you too. I lied with my brief explanation. Even though a "cable" possesses resistance, inductance, capacitance, has a reactance, carries a voltage and current within a closed loop system, can have a mechanical and electrical resonance, etc., ect. an AC cord cannot be a circuit.

Therefore....

I'm sorry: there is no "evidence" that line cords can make a difference so, of course they don't. Whether by measurement or by ear, such methods of evaluation are completely useless.

Having said all that, I'm just having fun with you. Hope you're having fun too.

Kindly,
Robert
RSAD

As for my opinion, I don’t need or have time for evidence. All I know, my system does sound different with different crafted power cords. I chose the PC’s that sound best to me no matter how much they cost and technology used. All my PC’s are custom made to my specs and to my liking. That is my preference and decision after testing many PC’s. Therefore, my conclusion is yes PC’s do change the sound of an audio system and each PC sounds different on different equipment. My suggestion is that everyone experiment and have fun and start listening to the art of music.

I appreciate the replies, but they still don't explain the apparent affect on the sound of a system. Once plugged into a wall socket, the power cable acts simply as a continuation of the power path from generation to your component's power supply (transformer etc); it isn't a discrete separate circuit as you suggest, in the way a power conditioner or UPS would be. It can therefore at best cause no further degredation to the power supply, but even a decent inexpensive cable will impart little to those two or three last feet.
As for RF/EM interference... yes, they exist and are a problem for low level signals in interconnects. But shielding less than 1% of your power supply chain is a bit like putting sunscreen on one finger and expecting the rest of your body to not get sunburnt.
I'm not trying to cause trouble here; I really am after some genuine evidence. But everytime I read "I spent $1000 on a power cord and Wow!", it sounds like "I spent $1000 on a power cord and it sounds no different but I don't want to admit I got conned by the HiFi shop."

I currently have two power cords for my pre-amp. When one is used it has a very big dynamic sound and when the other is used its recessive with a darker background and more texture. The difference is the shielding materials. Less shielding creates a big dynamic sound and more shielding blocks more EMI/RFI and softens the sound of my system. Therefore, I chose the power cord for my system for the sound I prefer.

Carl109...

If you consider a line cord as a type of circuit rather than wire, there lies the answer. What runs from the Utility Co. to a residence and then the house wiring is hardly a tuned or optimized circuit.

Kind Regards,
Robert
RSAD

"09-16-06: Sksos
I'll throw-in my 2 cents worth (maybe it's already been said, I didn't read all 135 responses up to this point!). Power cords can make or break a system IMHO."

I've asked before and will again; how can changing the last few feet of power cable in a chain of many miles from the power company, via various substations, power lines and your house wiring, possibly change how your system sounds?
Uninteruptable power supplies and conditioners I can understand. But suggesting that 3 feet of "special" power cord can improve an audio setup seems absurd. It's like saying that if your water supply comes via 10 miles of dirty pipes, then replacing the last 3 feet with new pure copper piping will suddenly make the water pure again.
If anyone can give an explanation better than "I've tried several and I can hear the difference", then I'm happy to stand corrected.

I spent $3,750 on cable for my system so maybe I should only be whipped with it! ;-)

Anyone who would pay $13,000 for wire just to connect his or hers stereo, should be strangled with it.

I've got an interesting thing for you to think about, what cable connection between components makes the most sense to put the best grade cable in including the speaker cable? If you follow the signal path from the cd player the one from there to the preamp is the weakest and most delicate, it needs to be boosted in a refined way so as to be a more robust level for the amp. If the cable loses minute detail because it isn't as good that detail will be gone from the system. Preserve that signal in the highest form possible to the preamp and you can drop to a lower grade cable from the preamp to amp and the detail that was fragile has been boosted so it passes through lesser cable without detail disappearing. I've used a trick of putting best in the first spot and medium grade in the next. It makes a huge difference from the other way where you have lost important ambient information, it doesn't have the dynamic energy.
In a budget allocation scenario the lower the budget the higher ratio I'll spend on cable, cheaper electronics fed with a better signal does better than if you dropped the cable cost back to nothing and put that money into a better component. The better component with cheap wire won't sound as good as the cheaper one that had more detail and depth.

First of all I have to comment on your thanks to Trelja and that you were looking for that kind of information, Why? Did that actually sound like good information to you?

I'll give you a quick rundown on why I would consider there to be value on my opinions about cable. I was a dealer in high end audio products, I like high end sound but also finding equipment that is a top performer at a price point. When I started I realized that if you tried to find out anything about wire and how much to spend you would get as many answers as people you asked. Even the people that have time and experience can be full of bull. I had some equipment lines that were the best values in audio, and others that cost a small fortune. I wanted to find out where the point that cables performance became a diminishing return because I assumed there would be one. I tried all kinds of relative value things like taking a BAT system with a $10k preamp, $18k amps, $6k cd, $22k speakers. Everything performed beyond it's price tag. The cables that are the best I've ever found going through about $400k worth of everything under the sun are the best value in stupidly high end audio, but at $2500 they are better than anything out into the $10k range. the whole line from high, mid, and entry matched others way beyond in price. Changing from the good cable down to mid level the price differential is only a few thousand dollars but you felt like the system was changed to components costing $30k less, the speakers which are glorious Meadowlark Nightingales that are as good as $80k Wislon Audio sounded like I'd dropped to $3000 speakers. Dropping to the entry which was actually competitive with $1000 I/C's for $129 and the system exhibited none of the massive audiophile presence and staggering detail and the right there in your face live feeling. So a few grand kills $60k worth of equipment as seen from that angle. Now I take the other way, nice entry grade performance equipment that matches to higher priced gear. Rega Planet, Belles 150, belles 21-A preamp, Meadowlark Heron speakers, a few grand in modest but excellent equipment. As I work up in cable grade the mid that was $300 for I/C's but would outperform most $1500 cable made the low grade in the big gun system sound less clear and detailed, the subtle things were not in the big system that the entry was starting to catch. The $800 I/C's in the entry trashed the big system with entry and the mids didn't have as much closeness and presence but the detail was starting to come through but didn't match the entry with cable that compares to anything on the market.

Questions about how much to spend on cable don't compute because the value with improvement to cost is so far beyond equipment gains it's like it takes $100 to get the gain over a grand in equipment does and it gets worse when the equipment is five to ten grand a component. A few hundred gives a better improvement than ten grand if wire hasn't been addressed much. Starting with the basic decent system I was talking about and entry grade wire you could make all wire upgrades until you were at a high level at which time your equipment upgrades will start giving up much higher levels of performance because you will hear it because the cable is capable of passing higher levels of detail. I started out a customer with the degree of equipment he wanted and educated them to several grades of wire so they knew where improvements were best made. I am writing a book on system synergy because this subject is the most bull filled in existence. I go through the logic in a manner that even Trelja could understand if he could consider for a short period that there is someone who tried $400k worth of wire in hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and that he may be mistaken about cables over $250 that he has never tried. I'm not sure how guys that find the magic $250 cable come to the conclusion that there couldn't be a better cable. The fact is that as good as they thought that cable is there are many more jumps up from there and they are just as amazing every time you make that improvement.

I cover things like which cables make the most difference and explain why so you can better understand why it's possible to make an upgrade that you won't hear much difference until you improve other things first. Another great thing to know is what happens when you upgrade speaker cable before interconnects.

Starting with a basic system upgrading components looking for great sound is only giving up a fraction of the quality the better equipment is capable of. Cable is a mind blower every time you jump up in quality, then equipment upgrades start delivering detail and presence that makes it worth doing.

There have been some very good responses to your inquiry but they weren't the ones that thought the idea of low limits being as good as it gets. Good quality sound is determined by the wire. Look at entry cable as cutting off 30% of the quality, higher grade lets you hear more, and every cable upgrade lets just a bit more. Yes there is a reasonable cutoff point but it really has more to do with how much you want in your system, picking a point to quit with wire doesn't make sense until the money spent on a new equipment upgrade will not make the difference wire will. If wire would still make an improvent that is just being wasted on new equipment.

An example of an opinion that means nothing is the guy who says that the best budget cable is Transparent, how many has he tried? It has to be the $129 JPS which will beat the $1500 Transparent, the $300 JPS beats Transparent out to $4000, and the $800 JPS beats the most expensive Transparent. I have had all these cables in systems and I had thousands of dollars worth of Transparent I used to show people the value differences out there.

No regrets at all...

Good points Duane. I've always been a proponent of very fast, wide bandwidth electronics. I'm sure that this has influenced my cable choices too.

If i had bandwidth limited electronics that introduced audible degradation via time and phase related problems, i probably would have went with lesser cabling. The cabling wouldn't make much of an audible difference because the purity of the signal was already degraded by the electronics.

In that respect, i guess that i can understand why so many people don't hear some of the major differences in cabling that others do. That is, their gear / installation has compromised the signal so much so that the cables are no longer the weakest link. This could be why "very subtle differences" are all that they are ever able to detect. Sean
>

PS... Anyone remember what the highest linearity / widest bandwidth speaker cable was that Audioholics ( the "cables are cables" people ) tested? If you took notes, you'll remember that this wasn't a "real expensive" speaker cable either.

Cables should never cost more than twice the system...

My experience with JPS shows good bang for the buck value and superb performance.

a cable(power/speaker/inter connector) is only worth what it will bring in the after market. example if a cable lists for $1000.00 and you can get a 25% disc costing you $750.00. then when you go to sell on audiogon and you can get $550.00-$750.00 back the cable was worth the price. if you payed $900.00 for the same cable and had to sell it for $450.00 or less, not a value in my mind. and the lower you most go the lower the ultimate value. so its not the price but the % of your original investment you can recover that determines the real $ value. so if you buy $8500.00 list spraker cables for $5700.00 and a few yrs of enjoyment or dislike later, and you can recover 80 to 100% of your money paid, well you did ok. obviously the closer to the 100% the beter. thats the way i see it anyway. you should research resale value first, then consider buying.

In blind test I would bet anything you could not pic Radio shack spoole wire form the The crazy 1K plus cables. Any money. Snake oil is snake oil. I dont need to brag on spending 5k on wire. To many on this site do.

Now, that's quite a generalization! It would do you good to find out which cheap products deliver and which ones do not. In my system I use 65 cents/foot military surplus signal transmission cable as speaker wire yet handcrafted, naturally insulated silver interconnects.

My system is resolving enough that anyone can tell apart same models of a power cable treated at different cryogenic facilities. My system is gentle enough that it can successfully play any recording of any musical genre regardless of recording quality.

With psychic power and primal intensity,

I'll throw-in my 2 cents worth (maybe it's already been said, I didn't read all 135 responses up to this point!). Power cords can make or break a system IMHO. Some cords that come with your components are fine as is (i.e.: Audio Note Japan pre-amps, their KSL-SPz AC cord is fine, no need to upgrade). Most gear a great AC cord will have a very positive effect and you don't need to spend huge amounts of $$$ to get a great power cord. Example: Z-Cables made (I say made because as of several weeks ago Z-Cables closed shop do to personal health issues... and YES, Mark is doing well now) a $600 Black & Red Lighting AC cord that actually beat out most mega buck cords or at least performed as well. I've listened to dozens of power cords, they all make differences (again as a qualifier, your system has to be capable to hear all these, sometimes subtle changes, but in the end it's trial and error. You have to experiment or trust your dealer.

that component which makes the greatest (positive) difference to the sound of a stereo system is worth the most dollar investment.

aside from the speaker, there is no formula for allocating funds to the other components which makes sense. if one's budget is sufficiently large the task of configuring components is easier than when funds are limited.

unfortunately it is not possible to assemble all combinations of components, so there is an element of luck and the opportunity to listen.

i see no advantage in developing a formula to allocate expenditures on individual components.

It is so easy to hear what a great cable or power cord can do for fine equipment. True, they are not always super expensive, but some of the higher priced stuff does deliver the goods on great gear..night and day differences!! Some people are tone deaf..that's a fact as well! I have owned just about all the major cable brands, including Radio Shack...all wires are not created equall sorry to say! MIT is my favorite of the higher price stuff...it allows the full dynamic range thru with both macro and micro dynamic shadings..tone color is vivid and soundstaging is deep and layered with oodles of air!! Horns are one of the toughest instruments to re-create on a stereo...try the RS cable against a MIT Magnum cable and ya don't have to scratch your head...your jaw will drop!! This all means nothing of course unless you own great gear like Krell ect....! One must also have a deep love of live music in order to understand what makes one cable sound better than another...if no appreciation exists then any cable will do, which is fine if that makes you happy! It's a personal thing..you don't have to make it a public scourge!!

A good cord is a good cord. They may or may not do what your looking for but that just makes it a good cord which doesn't meet your tastes. There are allot of good cords that sound different but are good. In some cases a cord that is not of the same quality will work better in certain applications. There are allot of good cords , average cords, exceptional cords and down right bad cords. The trick is finding the right cords to match your tastes. Unfortunately most of the good cords are pricy but that's because the manufacturers can get away with charging what people are willing to pay. There are very good cords at reasonable prices which are good value for the dollar. Some cords sound great in one application and horrible in another. Some good cords are inexpensive and some bad cords are pricy. The difference between good and bad is a matter of opinion but I believe at a certain point good cords are good but just sound different from each other giving a variety of tuning options. Power cords do make a difference and are useful to tune your system to ones particular tastes. Those who claim cords don't make a difference have probably never truly have given cords a chance or even tried them. Regardless of the theories and scientific facts subjectively cords sound different from one another giving audiophiles another variable to be confused or enlightened about. Cords are like any other tweak. They change the sound be it for better or worse. That's my rant of the day.

"If a cable makes a significant audible difference it must be altering the signal" said Ojgalli, among other tings.

Yes, and what ? Sophisme.
That only means that there are almost perfect (not alterning signal cables), and others which do alterate, more or less).

For myself, I have just tested different cables with the same outfit :

1) ok, the most expensive cables are not always the best ones, for sure - it's not a rule...like for everything !
It can even happen to be the opposite, sometimes - but not as often as I wish !
But the best are always among the expensive ones.

2) but there are important differences between less expensive and most expensive cables.
The average of the upper ones is much above the under ones.

3)Never forget, beyond that, that among each category, the active outfit is decisive.

NB It's the story of the half-full or half-empty glass, as truth, absolute, are never reached or measurable, objective.
A half-empty glass mind just says : cable is nothing, it has to be good, and it's ok, really nothing more;
a half-full glass mind says : cable is very important.
It's very difficult to make one which is reliable and don't pollute the sound.
Long, hard research, which has its prize.

Ojgalli,

There is a lot of science behind the claims made on the links you quoted. The problem is that science is not always trusted and fear of missing out on a potential performance improvement continues to drive people to try things.

Another thing not mentioned in these links is that some audio gear is very much more susceptible to cables than others. For example, the principle of a high input impedance and a low output impedance is desirable for audio components...this minimizes the effect of a coupling cable (often to a point of being audibly negligible when sufficiently high contrasts are employed)

However, not all audio components are designed according to these principles.

Well, that's maybe why the Anti-cables are winning out in so many systems.