11-08-15: Geoffkait
That's an interesting theory. How would you explain break in of cables with an air dielectric? Furthermore, how do you explain the barrage of testimonials regarding the break in of capacitors?
Hi Geoffkait, air dielectric? The closest you can get to an air dielectric in audio cables is putting bare wire into tubes of insulation. The wire will still touch the insulation in spots and is still surrounded by insulation. This also separates the wires more which will raise inductance. There is no free lunch.
As for capacitors, it's still the same concept except you need a specific capacitance. In cables we do not want excessive capacitance or inductance lest we change the frequency response.
I am not disputing that the sound does change with "break in" I am just suggesting that the sound changing is not necessarily a good thing. Yes that is contrary to what people report.
You are correct, it is just a theory but so are most of the other thoughts on the subject.
I have not had a chance to play with a cable burn in machine yet. I would like to, but find the price of admission a little steep. I have heard good reports from people I respect. From what I have heard reported about them, they do not use a music signal to break in cables. They use a higher voltage signal that I'm guessing does something else to the dielectric than a normal music signal does. This possibly takes the cable farther away from normal "break in". From what I've heard reported the effect does wear off. Requiring further burning on the machine. This simple fact leads me to believe it is doing something other than accelerating normal break in.
Just my 2 cents. |
I'd say they are real depending on the cable. |
So, you would say Cookin/Burnin Time and Settling Time are definitely real (Real Time) events :) |
Its obvious that some have not heard Morrow cables at various points of breaking in. They can sound quit awful, and it isn't subtle. Way worse than whatever you had in there previously. And then they start to get it together, the soundstage grows, detail you've not noticed before appear and you can't stop smiling. Probably many expensive cables sound as good as a 2-500 Morrow cable, but the silver plating is the secret sauce. I once unplugged them to move things around and it took them a day to settle in again.
More recently I disconnected them and they were fine with it. Just like a woman! |
Ooops, of course I meant 500 hours. Schubert, how many days is that? My calculator's broken. So you don't tweak or mod? Well, good for you, Jack! |
Also peoples neurological systems do not stay totally constant over time so there is always the possibility that a change heard has nothing to do with the gear.
Then there is the weather and humidity and barometric pressure that are also changing all the time and might effect fine details of what one hears.
So its very hard to reliably attribute a change over the longer term to any one thing.
All you know for sure and that matters is if it tends to sound better, worse or the same to you over time. Someone else in the exact same boat could easily reach a different conclusion. |
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Geoffkait, that's five hundred HOURS not days.
I don't know about 500 hours but I've changed nothing for 300 hours many a time . |
I have Morrow speaker cables and interconnects. After playing them hundreds of hours, I put them on the AudioDharma Cable Cooker. There was a significant further improvement. For many cables, the audio signal cable is just not sufficient to fully break in the cables. |
I seriously doubt anyone can keep track of the sound of the system when breaking in cables unless he does absolutely nothing to the system during that entire time. Surely there must be at least some changes to the system in addition to cables. I have never met an audiophile who wasn't constantly involved in some tweaks or mods or changing one thing or another. Thus, the sound is constantly changing. It would be virtually impossible to say with certainty that the sound at the end of 500 days was due entirely to the cables, or that the cables were fully broken in at the 500 day mark for that matter. To(Morrow) never knows. Lol |
I had my doubts about burn in until I acquired Morrow Audio cables. They suggest 500 hours to get to full break in, although by 300 you are most of the way there. |
That's good because so far, I cook my cables using an old CDP and an old 25watt integrated amp, where I can set the volume, into a 10watt 5.5R resistor using a couple of music CD's that I like for this process :)
I will have a search for the different cable cookers that are out there, such as Audiodharma, and post them as I find them :) |
Good or bad? Haha! Good! There is no debate about it any longer. The debate occurred twenty years ago. :-( |
Yes, Good or Bad ... that is a question :) |
By what you have written, cooking/burning/cryoing/settling, it could be interpreted (not interrupted) as a further form of the annealing process, right :)
Yes, info for thought :) |
Cryoing I would think best described as dealing with the crystal structure of the metal. Maybe you could say just another form of tempering, like heat tempering. This is not to say that cryoing would not improve the performance of the other materials as well. |
Good point. Annealing has to allow slow cooling to strengthen the metal (or glass) and to remove impurities. This makes me wonder if it's doable with a high dose of cable cooking vs just playing music. It's probable that it all winds up the same in the end and only the quickness of the annealing process is accomplished. Smarter people than me need to chime in.
All the best,
Nonoise |
By what you have written, cooking/burning/cryoing/settling, it could be interrupted as a further form of the annealing process, right :) |
Addendum: Besides, even if one burns in the cables fully whatever that actually means, there's still a very long way to go if the cables haven't been cryo'd. There are obviously other things involved with getting the max performance out of the cables we haven't even touched on yet, like contact enhancers and vibration isolation. It never ends, thank goodness. |
No matter how expensive the cables are and how long you burn them in ultimately the odds are that the sound will not be as good in many respects as the situation with *no cables per se*. By having *no cables per se* (only the tiny 1 meter ultralight headphone cables) I avoid all the pitfalls associated with the house AC, with power cables that generate magnetic fields (that distort the sound), with vibration and magnetic fields (that uh distort the sound) generated by transformers, issues with connectors, issues with large capacitors, with wall outlets, wall duplex covers, all of those things and more. Not to mention the enormous cost associated with actually getting the various cables and cords I would like to become accustomed to having. |
Touche', I say to your per se. |
I use cables per se that is why I am asking :) |
@Yping- That's also my method for interconnects, using the 'Irrational But Efficacious' CD's pink, white and brown noise tracks, on repeat. Personally, I feel like running in cables, at the voltages/currents they will see in use, is best. Whatever device the cable outputs to, I leave off, as the device's input impedance will complete the connection. (http://www.musicdirect.com/p-6813-cardas-ayre-acoustics-irrational-but-efficacious-ibe-burn-in-cd.aspx) |
I don't use cables per se so I can't comment. |
How do you make'em? Rare? Medium or Well-done? |
Sorry I have to disagree with you but then I cook my cables using an old CDP and an old 25watt integrated amp, where I can set the volume, into a 10watt 5.5R resistor using a couple of music CD's that I like for this process :)
I will have a search for the different cable cookers that are out there and post them :) |
I'm leaning towards agreeing with Sarcher30 on this. After removing the Herbies Big Foot dots from under my speaker and placing them directly (verboten!) on their sturdy maple stands, the sound improved in a big and positive way. More focus, better extension both ways, and a clearer soundstage.
This was with my newish Supra 3.4W speaker cables which I really liked. Just these past two days I tried some old Clear Day (24ga) and Tempo Electirc (16ga) silver speaker wire and thought I'd found audio nirvana, again. But both proved too much in the sense they spotlighted some parts and gave too sharp a presentation with some aft-shortening (did I just coin a phrase?) in the lower registers. Also, most of the romance of the Supras just disappeared.
In went my trusty old Mapleshade Double Helix and only then did I realize I was in audio nirvana for keeps. These thin walled copper speaker wires did all the things the solid core silver did without the spotlighting, aft-shortening, and romance killing. Delineation is pretty much spot on down low without the romantic bloat that the Surpa had and the highs are as detailed as the silver cables and exhibit none of the sharpness or etching.
I have just spent the better part of several hours judging the Mapleshades and find them lacking not a whit. Hello old friend. And these are very thin walled dielectric wires. Horses for courses, YMMV, but I'm back in the copper single core, thin coated dielectric camp, pitched tent and all.
All the best,
Nonoise |
That's an interesting theory. How would you explain break in of cables with an air dielectric? Furthermore, how do you explain the barrage of testimonials regarding the break in of capacitors? |
I have a different view of cable break in. I find the less dielectric the better. Also I find that cables sound more detailed and less smeared with no break in, and only get worse with break in.
With break in, a cables dielectric has a chance to store a charge, that will recombine with the signal delayed in time. This smears detail.
I don't buy the cable makers claims that cables sound better with break in. In fact the more the sound changes with break in the worse the design IMO. The reason for the big change is because there is more dielectric to absorb a charge from the signal, and the more dielectric material the longer it takes to charge/ burn it in.
Something to think about.
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Other than AudioDharma what other brands of Cable Cookers/Burners are recommended... Have you tried any others? |
AudioDharma is the one I would recommend...
Wig |
Other than AudioDharma what other brands of Cable Cookers/Burners are recommended... |
My experiences are the same as David Pritchard, I've owned too many cables to list and most of them were in my system for thousands of hours and they ALL drastically changed for the better after cooking!
You'll hear more low level detail, blacker background, expansive sound-stage width/depth and organic vibrant imaging; almost like you are there...
Wig |
Geoffkait - it was during a burn-in I noticed this effect and I had music playing through the cables, but the amp was turns down.
Yping - I too heard of the saturation issue, but wondered if "overcooking" was the real issue - perhaps not
Definaitely some weird stuff :-)
Regards... |
Yep, burnin/cooking would require a signal to go through it but leaving a component turned on for 6 days or more would allow for magnetic effects within the component to grow to the point of saturation, at which point you would need to turn the component off for the magnetic effects to dissipate through the ground... IMO. |
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I'm pretty sure it's true that a signal has to be going through the system in order to accomplish burn in. I kind of doubt the system or the wires of cables will burn in without at a minimum a music signal going through it for those 5 or 6 days. Most likely there's something else afoot if you observed the sound quality go South after 6 days. |
Lak - an observation derived from the link you provided... Over-Cooking can reduce the performance, at least temporarily. The characteristics of this are a reduced or diminished soundstage and a dull, lifeless quality to the music. If this situation occurs, merely letting the cables physically rest, and settle, then putting them back in the music system to play for a few hours brings them back to their optimal performance level. Over-Cooking does NOT do any damage to the cabling whatsoever. Again, incremental Cooking-and-listening tests are highly recommended to avoid over-Cooking one’s cables. A couple of months ago I was made aware that leaving a system powered on all the time will result in degraded SQ. I tried with my own system and found that I could leave the system on for up to 5 days, but after day 6 the system suffered similar effects mentioned above. Turning the system off overnight restored its performance. So perhaps it could it be possible I was effectively "overcooking" my cables? Hmmm... It certainly throws some light on something I had no explanation for :-) Many Thanks |
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David,
I'd like to respect the privacy of the cable maker and not involve him in this. The last thing I'd want is to somehow hurt his sales or his integrity on this forum or other venues.
As for your generous offer, I have well over 300 hours on my speaker cables and love what I hear (although the highs slowly continue to improve) so I don't think I have much longer to go. Again, a very generous offer.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Lak - a couple of questions on your post...
What happens if you "overdue" the time of the cooking?
Is the reversal of the overcook possible and what do you have to do?
Many Thanks |
I agree with Davidpritchard.
I have always heard improvement after using my AudioDharma Cable Cooker providing I didn't overdo the time on the AudioDharma. |
I have played Audioquest, Morrow, Kimber, Virtual Dynamics, and Synergistic Research all for at least 150 hours and then put them on an AudioDharma Cable Cooker. Each cable and interconnect showed significant improvement.
I am convinced that conditioning a cable with the AudioDharma unit improves the sound that otherwise will not be heard.
Nonoise send me your cables and I will condition them for the cost of postage.
What cable manufacturer can't hear what conditioning does to his cables and what brand of conditioner has he tried?
David Pritchard |
It very well might be an old wife's tale but on his site he offers cable cooking if the customer asks for it but told me he doesn't believe in it base on what he hears.
As for my self, I've gotten used to the routine of just playing music and witnessing the process. The biggest and nicest surprises come long after I think it's broken in and then it opens up another notch.
All the best,
Nonoise. |
Geofkait - does that apply to ALL cables or just IC's ?
- since speaker cables are subject to much higher voltages
My personal approach, i.e. based on testing many cables of varying performance levels...
- cooking is a much faster route to attain "reasonable" SQ performance
- but there is still a level of refinement that can be acquired by simply playing music.
Some cables I have tested required some 300-400 hours of normal burn-in, but that was reduced to around 100 hours cooking and another 100 hours of playing for significantly better SQ and performance.
But that is on my system - others may experience different approaches work even better on their systems.
Also, from what I have read, it seems there is no "correct method", since this topic varies greatly even between different cable manufacturers.
Regards... |
That's actually an old wives tale. The music signal is actually not enough to completely break in the cable. More, uh, drastic measures are required. |
That is interesting Nonoise |
One cable maker told me that he didn't believe in breaking in cables on a cable cooking device. Something about it not being a true audio signal and how it affects and uses the dielectric to the point where it becomes a constant, of sorts, playing a greater role in the sound of the cable than it should.
After cooking, the dielectric takes a long time to dissipate the conditioning effects before you get the true sound of the cable. He recommended just playing music until it breaks in.
I have no idea myself but felt the need to chime in with what I was told.
All the best,
Nonoise |
What are your thoughts of the following... To mention again, I read on KLE Innovations website that they "believe that the cable Burnin/Cooking process can be thought of as an extension/finishing of the Annealing process" which I thought was quite interesting. Perhaps yes but perhaps no because it does not seem to be permanent, or is it permanent, that is the question?
It make sense that this would apply to the signal and ground conductors but it appears that nobody knows why, that is the question? Conditioning the ground conductor makes even more sense when you consider that the "Outgoing circuit is only as good as the Incoming circuit", especially when you consider that response and proximity necessary factor/variables in the equation :)
Perhaps it is to do with feedback just like Back EMF feedback from speaker driver voice coils effects reproduction of the signal, the signal itself, and the amplifier or just like feedback in an amplifier can effect the amplifiers output signal quality even though its intended use is to keep the amplifier from oscillating :)
All quite interesting and perhaps we may know one day, perhaps, just not today :) |
I have an AudioDHarma Cable Cooker and would not be without it. I recondition all my cables and interconnects every 4 to 6 months. It is easy to hear the improvement even after multiple conditionings. In addition the AudioDharma manufacturer now has an add on that runs the signal thru the ground wire of your power cords. This gives a further benefit to the sound. What are the sound benefits with the signal running thru the ground wire of the power cord? |
Yping...I do think the XLO track works. Does it work bettter/faster than simply playing music for an equal number of hours? Can't say (haven't had occasion to do the experiment with duplicate cables etc.) though that's my assumption. Would I like to have a cable cooker? Yup...but other higher priorities for those audio $ now. |
