I use the burn in track of the XLO test CD which can be put on REPEAT and played continuous for say one day or two days or a week or more. At any point along the way one can audition the system to see how the sound is coming along. In the case of the XLO burn in track the recommendation is for continuous break in as opposed to start/stop. TG Audio used to burn in their cables which are VERY GOOD for around one month prior to shipping to customers. |
Oh, so now we're justifying audio purchases? Interesting. You mean like Shakti Hollograms, Franck Chang silver and platinum little tiny bowls, Lessloss Blackbody, SteinMusic Harmonizer, and Walker Audio Black Diamond doo dad for stereo cartridges? Or for that matter the $102,000 Walker Audio turntable. |
That's actually an old wives tale. The music signal is actually not enough to completely break in the cable. More, uh, drastic measures are required. |
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I'm pretty sure it's true that a signal has to be going through the system in order to accomplish burn in. I kind of doubt the system or the wires of cables will burn in without at a minimum a music signal going through it for those 5 or 6 days. Most likely there's something else afoot if you observed the sound quality go South after 6 days. |
Less are saying nay today? Interesting....;-) |
That's an interesting theory. How would you explain break in of cables with an air dielectric? Furthermore, how do you explain the barrage of testimonials regarding the break in of capacitors? |
I don't use cables per se so I can't comment. |
No matter how expensive the cables are and how long you burn them in ultimately the odds are that the sound will not be as good in many respects as the situation with *no cables per se*. By having *no cables per se* (only the tiny 1 meter ultralight headphone cables) I avoid all the pitfalls associated with the house AC, with power cables that generate magnetic fields (that distort the sound), with vibration and magnetic fields (that uh distort the sound) generated by transformers, issues with connectors, issues with large capacitors, with wall outlets, wall duplex covers, all of those things and more. Not to mention the enormous cost associated with actually getting the various cables and cords I would like to become accustomed to having. |
Addendum: Besides, even if one burns in the cables fully whatever that actually means, there's still a very long way to go if the cables haven't been cryo'd. There are obviously other things involved with getting the max performance out of the cables we haven't even touched on yet, like contact enhancers and vibration isolation. It never ends, thank goodness. |
Cryoing I would think best described as dealing with the crystal structure of the metal. Maybe you could say just another form of tempering, like heat tempering. This is not to say that cryoing would not improve the performance of the other materials as well. |
Good or bad? Haha! Good! There is no debate about it any longer. The debate occurred twenty years ago. :-( |
I seriously doubt anyone can keep track of the sound of the system when breaking in cables unless he does absolutely nothing to the system during that entire time. Surely there must be at least some changes to the system in addition to cables. I have never met an audiophile who wasn't constantly involved in some tweaks or mods or changing one thing or another. Thus, the sound is constantly changing. It would be virtually impossible to say with certainty that the sound at the end of 500 days was due entirely to the cables, or that the cables were fully broken in at the 500 day mark for that matter. To(Morrow) never knows. Lol |
Ooops, of course I meant 500 hours. Schubert, how many days is that? My calculator's broken. So you don't tweak or mod? Well, good for you, Jack! |
Sarcher30 wrote,
Geoffkait: That's an interesting theory. How would you explain break in of cables with an air dielectric?"
Not sure I can explain it. Except that it hints that break in involves more than the dielectric. Perhaps the metal crystal structure is affected, difficult to say.
"Furthermore, how do you explain the barrage of testimonials regarding the break in of capacitors?"
I myself did not mean to say there is no break in of capacitors, I'm just saying there are reasons to doubt everyone who testifies is actually hearing what he says he's hearing, that's all. Who decides that 200 hours or 500 hours or whatever is the point when the sound stops improving? I mean, come on! Monkey see monkey do. ;-)
"Hi Geoffkait, air dielectric? The closest you can get to an air dielectric in audio cables is putting bare wire into tubes of insulation. The wire will still touch the insulation in spots and is still surrounded by insulation. This also separates the wires more which will raise inductance. There is no free lunch."
Yes, but touching the insulation in spots is better than touching it all along the entire length, no? Besides you. An use standoffs like cotton or foam to prevent the conductor from EVER touching the insulation. |
Yes, cotton and foam DC is higher than air. The foam or cotton are barely touching the conductor. And cotton and foam are guess what? Mostly air! Hel-loo! Air sounds the best, you can trust me. This is a case where what measures best actually sounds best. |
Yping, that's a big 10-4. By extension, ALL wire should be broken in, all transformers, all capacitors, all resistors, all connectors, all fuses, in short, EVERYTHING. |
It just occurred to me that the manufacturers of cable would be well advised to add heat tempering to the metal conductor manufacturing process in addition to cold tempering (cryo) which most of the high end cable companies already do. Just thinking out loud. |
I would not call cryo an annealing process. I would probably call it a mechanical stress relief process, among other things. |
Annealing and Thermodynamics (wiki page)
Annealing occurs by the diffusion of atoms within a solid material, so that the material progresses towards its equilibrium state. Heat increases the rate of diffusion by providing the energy needed to break bonds. The movement of atoms has the effect of redistributing and eradicating the dislocations in metals and (to a lesser extent) in ceramics. This alteration to existing dislocations allows a metal object to deform more easily, increasing its ductility.[citation needed]
The amount of process-initiating Gibbs free energy in a deformed metal is also reduced by the annealing process. In practice and industry, this reduction of Gibbs free energy is termed stress relief.[citation needed]
The relief of internal stresses is a thermodynamically spontaneous process; however, at room temperatures, it is a very slow process. The high temperatures at which annealing occurs serve to accelerate this process.[citation needed]
The reaction that facilitates returning the cold-worked metal to its stress-free state has many reaction pathways, mostly involving the elimination of lattice vacancy gradients within the body of the metal. The creation of lattice vacancies is governed by the Arrhenius equation, and the migration/diffusion of lattice vacancies are governed by Fick’s laws of diffusion.[2] |
Cryogenics benefits all or almost all materials, steel, aluminum, plastic, whatever. So most likely one shouldn't equate cryo with burn in. If you wish to burn in the entire system look no further than the XLO test CD burn in track. Put the player on REPEAT and let 'er rip. Case closed. That doesn't mean you can skip the cryo bit. See, there's always something. Lol |
I certainly do not think that cryogenics involves dipping something in liquid nitrogen and pulling it out. Whatever gave you that idea? It's all computer controlled or should be. I also am a big fan of home freezing, you know, to save on the cost and time of sending things off to the cryo lab. ;-) |
I am referring to the home freezer circa 10 degrees F. As I said previously all thermodynamic processes are permanent. When one cryogenically treats a CD are you suggesting the CD is annealed? ;-) |
I freeze for two days then slow thaw to room temp. It's permanent. I.e., irreversible. |
Yapping wrote,
"1. Annealing is a process used to bring a metal closer to its equilibrium state. In this soft state, the uniform microstructure will allow for excellent ductility and workability."
Again let me ask, what does annealing have to do with anything when cryoing CDs? What is your theory why cryoing CDs improves the sound? |
Sorry for the AutoCorrect failure, unfortunate choice of words but not mine. I blame Apple. OK, so now we have a theory for CDs, Cryogenics or freezing improves the transparency. Without saying whether I agree with you or not, let me ask another question, What is the reason why LPs sound better after cryo/freezing? In fact, let me just cut to the chase and make a bold statement: cryoing or freezing ANYTHING produces better sound. Even things completely unrelated to the audio system. |
Tom, oh, no, not THAT again. Haha! |
Yping wrote,
""cryoing or freezing ANYTHING produces better sound. Even things completely unrelated to the audio system."
Maybe."
I trust you read between the lines that IF it's true, what I said, that cryoing or freezing ANYTHING is good for the sound it becomes harder and harder to attribute the reason to annealing or atomic structure reorganization or higher performance of the material in the traditional sense of the term: stronger, more ductile, harder, less brittle, etc. That is not to say these things aren't taking place. It's just that the operating mechanism is more mysterious. |
Lak, I have the opposite results with cryoing gold. I have cryo'd copper, silver, gold, aluminum, vinyl, plastic, ceramics, wood, brass. All to good effect. There are some reasons why folks sometimes get negative results, not limited not waiting long enough to judge the sound after the item has been returned from the cryo lab due to the thermal shock involved that takes about a week to wear off.
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The home freezer method is 1) place item(a) in freezer, 2) keep them in freezer for 48 hours, and 3) take item(s) out of freezer and place them in refrigerator section for 8 hours or however long it takes for the item(s) to reach the temperature of the refrigerator which is around 38-40 F. Then remove and place on a table until room temperature is reached. If you are freezing CDs be sure and wipe off the haze that accumulates on the data side of the CD during the whole process. If you'd rather be safe than sorry repeat the entire process.
GK |
