At the end of the day, everyone makes their own best judgement about whether they worry or care about spending money on a speaker with internal parts likely to become outdated. The sound, convenience of these speakers are hard to deny, and there's nothing inherently better about getting something that lasts (or can last) a long time. Some people just don't care about that aspect -- and after all, we throw out computers, phones, TV's, air conditioners, etc. so often that the idea that one would hang on to speakers is quaint. (And environmental, of course.)
Perhaps the two points of greatest friction for me are (a) the ability of other components (such as DAC, streamer) to become outdated *so fast* that the combo unit (the speaker+) doesn't even make it out of infancy. One solution for that would be similar to the the Schiit approach, where modules can be swapped out down the road without trading in the whole unit. Don't know if that could work on a speaker. The other possible point of friction would be price point. Perhaps people are willing to have a speaker become outdated at $1.5k-$2k. But what about $5k? Or $10k? Now, it's not sounding like it's worth the risk. |
@mfgillia
decooney When one small thing went wrong with the A500s Mads sent me out a new module, which contains all of the electronics inside one small box. It took about three days to arrive and five minutes to install. Didn’t ship anything back nor did I ever pay for shipping. That’s an impressive level of service delivery. I don’t think I’ve received much of anything lately in 3 days, not from any merchant. I looked up Buchardt just now, remembering they are from Denmark. Makes sense now, all of the best sounding speaker drivers I’ve used all come from Denmark. The Danes take their products and services very seriously with great passion. And their audio too. Thanks for sharing :) Those Buchardt A700 speakers are nice too. Good to know! |
Wow, good to know about that about genelac.
I think that having just amplified, or self powered speakers, seems to be more reliable. Takes the dac and dsp out of the equation. Besides, the dac is really what we want to upgrade.
But then theres the whole controversy over what effects having your electronics inside the speaker cabinet have on your speakers as well.
I’ve always thought that you can compile a better system with various components from different manufacturers but MBL is one of my favorite and both times I heard them, they were complete MBL systems.
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If you're worried about something being outdated get Genelec they still service speakers from the 80's. |
Good company. We'll see how long they last, but the issue has more to do with a complex array of internal and specifically matched components not becoming outdated. |
@decooney When one small thing went wrong with the A500s Mads sent me out a new module, which contains all of the electronics inside one small box. It took about three days to arrive and five minutes to install. Didn't ship anything back nor did I ever pay for shipping.
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1. when the manufacturer no longer makes that model, or amp replacement inside, the whole unit becomes a throw-away. i.e. think old subs, "oh, we don’t make that model any more, we’ll give you a discount on new model".
2. one small thing goes wrong inside, you get to pay to ship it back to fix it. Waiting time, hope they will be around long enough to fix the proprietary technology. It’s not like separates with shared parts in common.
3. expect class D sound, "a new model is coming out" merry-go-round. It's not tube! :) |
So, that's another option. This thread has become a mere "shootout" between active speakers. ok. |
Might be blasphemous to mention in these parts, but Edifier S2000 MKIII comes darn close to LS50W at a fraction of the price, in fact sounds a bit more open if EQed properly and connected wired via a proper interface (which I'd do with LS50W anyway too).
But in actives, the real fight is now between Focus XD 20 and A500. Those are the top ones in high-ish end without going totally crazy with the likes of Kii III etc. |
@danielscottnyc1 At the end of the day the only thing that matters is whether you're happy with your system. So if to your ears the Sonos system provides similar enjoyment as the Buchardts then to me that sounds like an easy decision to make saving fair amount of cash.
Plus, Sonas software and app is considered by many to be among the best available and consistently works well for many people unlike what's available from most active speaker systems.
The Buchardt app for room correction has been available since launch. Darko uses it in his video review. There isn't an android version yet so borrowed the girlfriend's iPhone. Took awhile to figure out how to pair it to the A500s via bluetooth but once that's done it works very well.
I have not heard Dynaudio's nor System Audio's (SA) active speakers, which appears to use the same hub and remote control as the A500s. Regarding the former, the feature set is different than the Buchardts and SA but both Danish companies have very good reputations and their products generally receive very favorable reviews. |
@rbindc1 Nope, I haven't heard version 2 of the KEF LS50 Wireless. From reading reviews though my guess is that to me it will be more of a marginal / incremental improvement in terms of sound quality but more significant improvement in terms of usability & app quality.
I'm skeptical that adding a subwoofer to the KEFs will improve the sound quality to be on par with the A500s based on my experience pairing version 1 with KEF's Kube 10b subwoofer. Not to imply there was anything really wrong with the sound from that pair. I just could never really seem to integrate the subwoofer well enough for my tastes. It always felt like I was listening to music with a subwoofer banging away from another location versus disappearing seamlessly into the sound stage.
The bass of the A500s is also much more differentiated producing distinct bass notes from different instruments versus blending together. This is likely at least partially due to the room correction removing two large room modes from my listening room.
With that said there's also really nothing wrong with the KEFs LS50 Wireless in terms of sound quality compared to conventional book shelf speakers especially in the treble where to me it really shines. There's just a lot more to listen to when playing music from the A500s. Regarding speaker stands, mine are from the local stereo shop where I purchased the KEFs and are relatively generic. I just checked now and didn't see a separate brand name or any other identifier.
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@mfgillia I'm not really considered a high-end audiophile but I did buy the Buchardt A500 speakers. I'm still questioning whether to keep them or not. I did a head-to-head comparison Sonos play 5 generation 2. These are $1,000 for two. The A500 are $3,300 plus $700 for the Hub which gives you a lot of flexibility that Sonos doesn't give you.
Can I say that the A500 speakers are 3 times better sounding than the Sonos Play 5? I cannot. Twice? Probably.
@mfgillia why are you referring to the room correction when the Buchardt app with the room correction isn't out yet until end of December 2020?
Also have you compared the A500 with Dynaudio Focus 20 XD or XEO 20 ?
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Have you compared the Bucharedt with the new KEF Wireless II system?
Darko presented a very convincing case for the Burhardt A500. However, he did not compare them to the KEF Wireless Ils plus a subwoofer. The addition of a subwoofer could even the playing field. Of course, it would also substantially close the price gap between the two systems.
The KEF Wireless II is not one-half the cost of the Buchardt A500 after one spends $1000 (or more) for a decent subwoofer (or two small ones).
Even so, the Buchardt's offering room correction, plus the option to tune the speakers through software adjustments, is pushing me toward the A500s even though I like the KEF wireless II system.
One last question. What stands are you using with the Buchardts? |
@hilde45 Thanks - overall the Buchardt’s have been wonderful and tend to agree with Darko’s over the top and very flattering description of their sound quality including his comparison to the Kefs. The sound is just so much more fuller, dynamic and just simply more exciting & fun than my prior systems.
That bass... It’s the first thing that’s immediately noticeable after plugging in and the first time able to so clearly differentiate between different instruments that low.
The performance of those two active woofers mounted in the rear is more akin to having a set of very nimble balanced subs at least in my relatively small living room. But whereas in the past I was never completely satisfied with my ability to integrate subwoofers coherently with the rest of my system, it’s a different story with the A500s thanks most likely to the built-in room correction. It did a great job of taming two monster modes that were ripping through my room pre-correction.
It hasn’t been all positives though. I did have some drama during the first few weeks of operations that required fixing. However, Mads has been great and very responsive seemingly answering his email 24/7. He won’t hesitate to send out completely new electronics asap if something isn’t quite right.
Speaking of which, I did discover servicing the speakers is a breeze. It’s been designed so that all of the electronics are in one self-contained, small module that’s easy to remove/re-install.
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Something else that I really liked about the Dynaudio Xeo’s are that the hub will connect to multiple pairs so you could have 3 or 4 different pairs of xeo’s throughout the house all streaming the same music with no latency issues.
I’d like to see a shootout between the Dynaudio XD’s and the Buchardts. They’re similar money and I think it would be a good comparison.
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Kef LS50W’s are finnicky. I think the electronics have a 50/50 shot of being dead in 10 years. The app for the ls50’s is awful as is the remote.
Dynaudio felt much better as far as remote control functions, and thr electronics never gave me any issues on the xeo 6’s.
The Buchardts look great! Room correction on the hub, master sound setting on the speaker, xlr inputs (no room correction), 24/96khz, good remote control.
I think self powered, dsp speakers might be the future audiophiles speaker of choice. The kids today aren’t into the gear like we were or are.
The ability to amplify each driver with no crossover and add in dsp and you’ve got a hard combo to beat. You’d think that the engineer of the speaker knows well, how to match amps to the drivers to achieve their desired outcome of sound. |
@mfgillia Good luck with the speakers. The software issues and lifespan of support is a real concern to me. On the other hand, I look at my home theater system and see AR 48 3 way speakers which I bought in 1982 and have worked with every receiver, AVR, and amp I've purchased ever since. There is nothing fancy about the, but they sound great and remain usable. Something to be said for that. |
I have purchased number of active speaker systems over the years and each time swear I'll never do that again. While they can sound excellent and give you better value at a specific price point the main problem that often goes unmentioned is usability.
Large speaker companies like Kef are generally horrible at software, which these systems tend to rely heavily on for functionality. The Kef LS50 Wireless has among the worse rated app in audio. Their new improved app partnered with version 2 isn't compatible with the original system so prior customers are pretty much screwed.
Why does it matter? Because without the apps working one can't adjust user settings for things such as dsp, subwoofer, bluetooth and changing wifi networks, which often requires a hard reset of the entire system. Even simple things like switching inputs is a chore requiring cycling through all options on the cheap plastic remote or getting up to go look at the front panel.
So knowing all this then why did I purchase Buchardt's A500s at twice the price of the Kef's back in February before any reviews were out? Combination of insanity, hope of better execution / customer service from Buchardt and last but not least the allure of incredible sound with unmatched feature set via unlocking the power of DSPs and active crossovers.
The promise of endless tinkering with the sound signature via master tunings, lower level enhancement adjusting for Fletcher Munson curves, built-in room correction and true sub bass performance from a small book shelf speaker overwhelmed my self control and prior vows to avoid active systems. |
@twoleftears That's true for the KEF but the question is about the kind of speaker, not the specific instances. |
1. It's still a KEF.
2. It's still a KEF LS50.
3. Can you still get the funky glow-in-the-dark pattern printed on the driver? |
If they need service you're out for awhile no swapping a different component is a downside. I use active speakers and like them. They're not wireless but are wired to ethernet. Best sounding speaker to me I've ever had. If I upgrade it would be another active. |
When the cell phone apps stop being supported you have an obsolete product. Buchardt is a new company and very small so that is extra risk. Original LS50 wireless is not obsolete but is dated after 3 years and has a frustrating app.
LS50 has no grills and kids love to poke them out.
You have to like the Class D, active crossover, DSP sound. Basically the studio monitor sound.
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Better amp/speaker matching
what matching are you referring to? |
So, either of you guys -- no major downsides except nothing to tinker with? |
I don't see a major shift to active speakers not enough stuff to tinker with. No tubes in any of these though they might eventually have filters you can load in to give them a tube sound. |
And so if someone likes tubes, they won't go this way? |
Powered speakers with DSP ARE the future. Better amp/speaker matching. Less risk of obsolesence than separates.
Probably more expensive to "climb the ladder." Probably lessened urge to do so. |
