To clarify, in my first post, I said the specific SABRE DAC I was comparing against sounded a particular way. I did not mean to imply all SABRE DACs will sound the same. I would be the first person to say it's all about the implementation, as that's exactly why the Neko Audio DAC doesn't sound like other PCM1794 DACs.
I was a bit remiss in referring to the OPPO HA-1 and Sonica DAC sound as the SABRE sound. However I do find many SABRE DACs sound similar, and was trying to convey that in my description. |
Agree agree with all of the above, Rice.
it's hard to imagine the Mytek sounding any better....suspect the Manhatten II adds MQA and USB from a Mac, neither of which Icare much about. However, I will contact Mytek about an upgrade, I can always use the Bryston as a pinch hitter.
one question for you--do you have any idea why I only get the DSD over pcm signal when my Oppo 105 says it is outputting DSD from SACD over HDMI?
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I'd like to comment on this "sound of DACs". ESS DAC chips have a sound. Everything does. However, it is not what is normally talked about. What you are hearing when you hear any DAC is the whole shebang. You are not hearing an ESS or Wolfson or AKM or TI or R2R or whatever.....you are hearing the entire implementation of literally thousands of things that can change and effect the sound. I am not exaggerating. I have been modding players/DACs and manufacturing DACs since the first Philips CD player came out (mid 80s). The game is infinite. Above, Nekoaudio says the ESS DACs are distorted. No, they are not. The Oppos are distorted because they have no idea how to make something sound great....hence my modding them......every Oppo sounds not good stock no matter what DAC chip is in them. But I can fix it. Mahler123 says his Manhattan DAC (uses last generation ESS DAC chip) sounds much better than his Bryston DAC (uses AKM chips). This is completely contradictory to what Nekoaudio stated. There are several people who have A/Bed the stock and modded Gustard (ESS based) with the Yggy (R2R based) and the modded one kills the Yggy and the stock one is in the same league. What? It is all in the implementation.....really! However, DAC chips are getting better. The new ESS 9028/9038s are a whole nuther world more informative on every level than the old 9018s. Way less noise and distortion. Does that mean the new Oppo Sonica will sound good? No...it is still an Oppo. It won't sound that great.....the Bryston would kill it. However, modded the Oppo will probably kill the Bryston. There is a new Manhattan II. It has a bunch of enhancements including the new ESS top of the line 9038 DAC. I bet it is way, way better than the older Manhattan. If I had the old one I would be sending it off the get it upgraded yesterday....overnight! I bet it would blow your mind. Every DAC system/chip has a limitation. What is it? Certainly buying an Oppo won't show you the limitation of an ESS chip.....you are hearing the limitations of the people who designed it and also the price point they are playing at. It is understandable that people want simple answers to make their purchasing more easy. However, there is nothing simple about audio sound. For instance, discrete circuits are not the cure all. The Bryston has discrete output stages but the Manhattan uses op amps......oh no....another myth gone out the window. It is everything you do. Every single part and resonance and power supply and solder joint (yes, all brands of solder sound different) has a sound.....everything has a sound. My job, as tweaker, is to lower the distortion and noise of a component by choosing the best parts and implementation.....all by listening. You cannot do it by the book...you have to listen. This game is infinite....just like life, just like Love. |
@plutos I would only recommend the Neko Audio D100 Mk2 DAC if you're looking for an analog sounding DAC with the benefits of a well-designed solid state design, over other considerations. |
nekoaudio,
I`m actually considering your DAC also. But I`m bit tempted of the $500 Denafrips ARES or DAC-64. It`s discrete R2R (0,01). The technology is same as in the very top MSB, DCS etc.
I need a small DAC for my Smart TV (8 series Philips optical out) it will probably put out PCM in stereo mode).
P.S. I`m 99% sure that none of these DAC`s better the d/a in my SA-1, but shootout will be a fun anyway!
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Will do mahler123, if plans get finalized.
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Well Millpai, let me know if you attend Axpona, maybe we can meet for a drink or something |
@plutos I haven't had a chance to do a lot of critical listening with the Sonica DAC yet, but my first impression is that it retains the same basic SABRE sound character but might be slightly faster at transients and thus have slightly more separation between notes than the OPPO HA-1. But the degree is very small, if any, so I could just be imagining things. I need more time to be able to form a more concrete opinion. |
I tell them that my stereo takes me to places that my car never will
This is so true mahler123. Very well said. I will have to hear these 2 DACs personally. Thank You for your feedback. Trying to convince my wife to make a trip to Chicago AXPONA this year and spend 2 days, instead of 1. Want to hear as much DACs as I can. |
@milpai
i was auditioning the Bryston hoping that I would love it so much that I would sell off the Mytek. When I had purchased the Mytek it made everything that it does play sound so much better that now my SACDs in two channel via the Oppo didn't stack up well against red book via the Mytek. As I have said the Bryston helps the SACD and Blu Rays and it bests the Oppo for red book but the Mytek
still is superior --clearly--than the Bryston.
It is a real stretch to own 2 DACs. One consideration is the rapidly falling price of DACs. The Mytek has lost 50% of it's value on the used market in the months that I have owned it.
I also drive a 12 year old Honda Civic. My friends laugh at me because my stereo costs more than my car. I tell them that my stereo takes me to places that my car never will |
Nekoaudio,
Thanks! OPPO Sonica has the newest ES9038PRO Sabre DAC. Can you share any impressions of the sound?
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Hey Mahler!
Yeah, it depends on the software I use. I only do DSD via USB to the Mytek.... and unfortunately the Squeezelite agent only does DoP. Quad DSD gets re-sampled to PCM.
It's not a hardware limit, I was going to hack the source code and enhance it, but then got sick and couldn't follow through.
Best,
E
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np mahler123. You are so lucky to be able to compare 3 very good digital products! If I read your post correctly, are you indicating that you prefer the Mytek over Bryston for CD playback? I have the Bryston on my mind for future upgrade. Can't afford 2 DACs like you :-)
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@milpai I am sorry for the confusion. The Mytek can not take SACD, as noted. I am comparing the SACD decoding of the Bryston vs the SACD decoding of the Oppo105 When I reference comparing the Mytek to the Bryston, I am refering to non SACD replay, such as red book CD, or my Bluesound (bypassing the DAC of the Bluesound) |
@plutos AKM4490, R2R, and SABRE implementations in general? Here are some DACs I can remember right now with those chipsets/designs, that I had recently or have right now.
AKM4490: Marantz AV8803A, Bryston BDA-3, AKM Reference Board
R2R: Audio-gd Master Something, Schiit Yggdrasil
SABRE: OPPO HA-1, OPPO Sonica DAC, Auralic Vega |
@mahler123,
I am wondering - DSD does not output from coax in case of Oppo. So how were you able to compare the same SACD on Bryston Vs Mytek? Or maybe I got it wrong, and you are comparing only the PCM on both the DACs? |
Nekoaudio,
Could
you please tell us what R2R and Sabre DCS`s you compared the AKM4490 to?
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Thanks, E. My HD downloads sound spectacular on the Bryston, but the L.E.D. still lights up as DSD over PCM...
I know that you own the Brooklyn, E. I've never had a chance to compare the Brooklyn vs the Manhatten, but as I've noted, the Manhatten clearly bests the Bryston in red book and my other digital sources ( for me, primarily, my Bluesound Vault 2). If only Mytek would add HDMI inputs...The Bryston is enhancing my SACD, however, so I am going to keep both DACs and eat rice and beans for a while |
DSD over PCM or DoP really IS DSD. It's just packed inefficiently, so there are limits to the DSD, usually DSD 128 is the maximum.
Native DSD is better only because it allows quad DSD over USB, and has no real benefit for playing the round disks, only useful for downloads.
Best,
E
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I am using the Oppo 105 as a transport for both the Manhatten and the BDA-3. I use the coax out to the coax in for the Mytek, and the HDMI out for the Bryston. First I had to program the Oppo to output DSD from SACDs.
I've had the Mytek for 5 months, and the Bryston for about 3 weeks. |
@mahler123,
How long have you been using the Mytek? Is the Bryston BDA-3 new in your system? Curious because many reviewers seem to like th Bryston. How are you playing the SACDs on the Mytek? |
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Have you checked the OPPO settings to make sure it is set to output DSD? |
Ok. I have my unit. Every SACD or Blu Ray sounds better than via the OppoPlanar 105 DAC. But...I can't seem to get native DSD. Every disc played triggers the Bryston LEDs that say I am getting DSD over PCM. I've got the settings on the Oppo to output DSD from SACD. Any ideas?
Migh 24/96 downloads also sound amazing when played from a USB stick via the Oppo. My other DAC, the Mytek Manhatten, won't play these without a horrible grinding noise at the end of each track.
Alas, the red book and other digital inputs sound much better with the Mytek...looks like I will be using 2 DACs. |
Depending upon the recording some discs are reproduced with more apparent detail with upsampling on, but I generally prefer the sound with it off listening to the native sampling rates. |
Can anyone of the BDA-3 owners comment on the affects of the upsampling feature on the overall sound quality? Thanks. |
As a point of reference I run the BDA-3 DAC using a PS Audio PerfectWave Transport for disc playback with excellent results. The PWT plays both CDs as well as hi-res PCM files burned to DVD-R discs. |
Maybe the problem is also the Oppo itself I am not sure how good it is a CD transport , Maybe you need a dedicated CD transport without inner DAC to fulfill the full potential of the BDA-3 DAC.
From my experience CDP and blu-ray players are lousy as transports to external DAC . |
milpai - You are correct, the BDA-3 decodes the DSD stream directly from SACD players via HDMI. |
@papaned,
Congratulation on the new acquisition and Thanks for sharing your experience. Looks like the BDA-3 is awesome. How are you playing the SACD (DSD) streams over the DDA-3? Is it via HDMI? |
@papaned great to hear I ordered mine around XMass and it isn't in yet. I also have an unmodified Oppo 105 which I currently using as a transport with the Mytek Manhatten for RBCD.. The Mytek has enhanced my system and now I would like to get more out of my SACDs. If the Bryston sounds great all around then I probably will swell the Mytek, since I don't care about MQA... |
Got my BDA-3 DAC two weeks ago, driving it with my 2 1/2 year-old Oppo 105D that was fully modified by EVS [Ric Schultz]. I use a Nordost Blue Flare HDMI cable to connect the two. I play RBCD and SACD two-channel exclusively-no downloads.
Setup was simple and the DAC locks on flawlessly. Although I still need plenty of burn-in over the factory's 100 hours, the music it produces is superb-just like Greenhill's review in Stereophile.This is enhanced by the over $1000. in EVS modifications done to the transport portion of my Oppo.
The biggest improvement was to RBCD. The DAC has resurrected my CD collection. HDCD comes through as PCM. The already great sounding SACD's are further improved in soundstage, imaging and most importantly in tonal quality.
This DAC was well worth the wait.
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Nekoaudio, I again applaud your descriptions. A dealer near me (I am very far from California) will have a BDA-3 for audition in a week or two, and I will seize the opportunity. I am tempted to borrow/purchase and bring to that audition an Oppo Sonica, when that DAC becomes available, and if that opportunity arises I will report on the experience. |
I think your definition of "more body" may instead be whether or not the sound is recessed and narrow with some masking of sound, versus wide and deep and all sounds properly weighted. I believe this may be better characterized by the impulse response measurement than the harmonic distortion measurement.
In which case the Bryston BDA-3 plus Dirac Live RCS might be your best choice if you prefer the most detailed, cleanest, and accurate sound with the above definition of "more body". But you will want both.
Unfortunately I think it unlikely I will have a Luxman or Ayre for direct comparison anytime soon. |
Nekoaudio, thanks for your detailed and well considered reply. Let me correct an error in my last post...the Levinson 526, at $20,000.00, employs the new Sabre 9028 chip, which apparently will be available in the Oppo sonica at $800.00, and the new Ayre QX5 at $8000.00. I believe that whereas the Auralic Altair uses the Sabre 9018, the Vega used proprietary DAC chips.
So regarding your comment that 'more body' is tantamount to added harmonics....a less dry presentation...the issue from my perspective is whether those added harmonics are euphonic noise, which term or similar has been used to describe the measurably high distortion but very pleasant sound of vinyl recordings, or constitute enhanced clarity....an analogy might be the sense of spaciousness or 'sound of the room' often adduced as attributes of superior stereo reproduction.
I wish it were possible to A/B the Bryston, whose sound you state is closer than that of the Auralic is to the Luxman, with the Luxman, or with the Ayre QX5 for that matter. Unfortunately, as you likely know better than I, in this age of internet reveiws and sales few if any dealers have more than one or two 'audiophile' DAC's available for audition. If you do have occasion to audition a Luxman DA-06....keep in mind its wonderful treatment of piano music, as a benchmark...in comparison with ?? the new generation of DAC's which might better approximate the holy grail of clarity and rich, euphonic harmonics, I....and I'm certain other audiophiles....would be most grateful for your further impressions. |
I think you will find the Bryston BDA-3 to be exceptionally clean and accurate. However it uses a specific filter choice, and you may or may not care about its impact on the sound. Many people prefer that choice of filter so it is not a bad choice. However I like being able to choose the filter on the Auralic Vega.
I believe the Auralic uses a Sabre chip. I find the Auralic kind of sits in-between the OPPO and the Bryston, in terms of sound character. They're all exceptional products, which is why I use all three myself. If you are liking the Luxman because you find the OPPO has a bit more audible distortion (e.g. fatigue in the high frequencies) then I would guess you will prefer the Bryston.
But you also mentioned you wanted a bit more body. Which I'm still not sure you will get from the Bryston. Since usually that does mean a bit of added harmonics—i.e. a less dry presentation. Are you getting that from the Luxman?
Also, the Bryston brings out everything. So you will hear clipping on hot tracks and recording errors etc. Those same sounds are present but less audible with other DACs. Which may be undesirable depending on the music you listen to.
BTW - If you are hearing some high frequency distortion and thus experiencing listening fatigue, have you also considered your amplifier? It may not be solely a question of your DAC. |
Gentleman, and particularly nekoaudio,
I wish first to address sonic quality obtained with different 'outboard' DAC's, and in the following context.
The context is that I acquired a Luxman DA-06 in part due to
price and local convenience. I had previously employed a Denon
1713UD, with Burr Brown 1795 chips. Regarding the Denon's DAC, the sound was non-fatiguing but inferior to that obtainable with
vinyl, specifically employing the AT33sa and AT ART9 cartridges. I replaced the Denon with an Oppo 105d, which uses the Sabre 1918 DAC chip, and noted an increase in clarity but increase in 'fatigue'. Addition of the Luxman DA-06 as an outboard DAC eliminated the 'fatigue' experienced with the Oppo 105d's 'inboard' DAC, and achieved greater clarity than that provided by the Oppo. The sound of CD's decoded by the Luxman and vinyl played with the AT ART9 cartridge was not not far fromequivalent...highly enjoyable, with the advantage possibly going to the 'redbook' CD's.
With regard specifically to the Oppo Sabre-based DAC and the Luxman BB 1795-based DAC, and after toggling repeatedly between these two DAC's and after now prolonged listening, it appears to me that the increased clarity of the Sabre-based DAC relative to the Denon's BB 1795-based DAC was in part fallacious, reflecting deficient harmonics surrounding most notably the high frequency sounds (eg violins).
So regarding the Bryston BDA-3, I remain intrigued as to how its sound compares with other DAC's you auditioned. As you know, the Bryston employs an AKM 4490 DAC chip, and the Auralic employs a proprietary chip, both selling for the same price. The new (undeniably high end) Mark Levinson 526 pre-amplifier employs a Sabre 1918 chip. The French 'Totaldac' employs an R2R DAC, and is by one account superior to all the DAC's just mentioned save possibly the Levinson.
Lastly, regarding the Oppo 105d, I believe that it will input and natively output DSD64 only by HDMI, and that it will 'support' DSD 128 only if audio data in that format is received via a USB-connected computer or streamer, in which case the Oppo will convert DSD 128 to PCM 24/88.2 and output if exclusively via HDMI in that form.
As aluminum disks become obsolete and high end audio gravitates to electronic digital storage, and as the relative virtues of 'universal players' pale in comparison to those of streamers/DAC's and related processors,
I ask what role 'universal' players will have in the future, and whether DVD's, blu-ray or other', including operatic and orchestral audio-visual recordings, will equally transition to entirely electronic media,
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Thanks neko that was interesting. There seems to be an issue with a loud 'pop' at the end of tracks played in DSD. |
Nekoaudio and ddafoe,
You appreciate that the Oppo 105d will not through-put DSD
or SADC files...failure to do so for SACD appears so some sort of copyright issue, and DSD a technical issue. So a streaming device is required to input un-decoded DSD files to the DAC...in this case a Luxman DA-06. The Luxman cover plate identifies it as a DSD-capable unit.
I therefore await the arrival of a streaming device that will allow me
to employ the Luxman for decoding of DSD....in this case an Auralic
Aries.
The result should be enlightening. |
I had a BDA-1 and BDA-2 and thought they were both excellent.
Well before the BDA-3 was released I upgraded my BDA-2 to a Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC Series 2. The Berkeley had more resolution but I actually found it a little too clean (or maybe too detailed/analytical) sounding and missed some aspects of the Bryston (a little thicker sounding with more timber).
I then swapped the Berkeley for a Simaudio 380D which I love. Not counting its ability to play DSD (which I've tried and sounds good) I found it a nice mix between the BDA-2 and Berkeley. Its super musical (by far the most musical DAC I've tried) with nice resolution and a little more meat on the music than with the Berkeley. I have no idea how it compares with the BDA-3, but it is certainly a nice choice if you find a used one. I've also never heard the
Luxman DA-06 but based on reviews of each, I wonder if they wouldn't have a very similar sound.
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Thanks, Bill K. Unfortunately neither reviewer comments on the HDMI input |
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Well, the BDA-3 is probably going to be the most functional of the bunch, considering you want to feed it DSD from your BDP-105D. I recommend you audition the Auralic Vega though, even if it won't be as functional as the BDA-3. Also, I personally find it a little harder to navigate through the Auralic UI instead of just having buttons for everything like on the BDA-3. |
Nekoaudio, thanks again for your response.
I am considering the Luxman DA-06, the Bryston BDA-3, the Auralic, and am less enthusiastic about the Hegel HD30 and the Wadia di322...of course this ranking could be far from the mark. Considerations include compatibility with the Oppo 105D which thus far seems to do a phenomenal job with high resolution DSD files. The OPPO will not output un-decoded SACD, which is not an issue since I possess very few such recordings. As I mentioned it does wonderfully with hi res DSD files....possibly the audio is a bit thin....and less than optimally with CD's. As I increasingly appreciate, the quality of the recording itself, CD or DSD, is all-important. That said, the Oppo is wonderful but nonetheless perhaps the weak link in my otherwise high end system, so that improving on its audio output....CD's foremost, DSD's possibly, DVD audio (including blu-ray)....is worth some effort and expense.
Further thoughts and recommendations are of course appreciated. |
I think it depends on how much body you're looking for. Depending on what you're looking for when you say that, you may want to consider DACs other than the BDA-3. Although I think you will have to give up some cleanliness of sound and detail retrieval in exchange.
That being said, Dirac Live RCS might give you what you're looking for with your existing BDP-105D, or a new DAC like the BDA-3. I find it brings back some of the life-like quality to music that can be otherwise lost, without changing the overall sound signature of the rest of your gear.
Dirac offers a two week free trial period for their computer-based software. It's also available in a standalone box from miniDSP so you can use it with all your sources.
I'm located in San Jose, California. We carry Bryston and are a sales affiliate for Dirac so we can demo both of those. We also have some other DACs here that we do not sell but also highly recommend.
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Nekoaudio, Can you elaborate further on the sound of the Bryston BDA-3...does it give some flesh to the wonderfully detailed but possibly a bit thin sound of dsd decoded by the Oppo 105D, and does it significantly improve on the more audibly dry sound of cd's and DVD audio decoded by the Oppo? If you are a dealer, where are you located? Thanks. |
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Does anyone know if Bryston intends to add MQA support to their DACs? I would hate to by the DAC 3 only to find it was added the next week... |
