For those of you who don't follow my posts religiously, I recently purchased a pair of Martin Logan SL3's. I love them; they especially excel with voices. However, last night, I was listening to Bolero, and the snare sounded terrible. It sounded muffled and faint. I adjusted the settings, and nothing helped. I am using a MC275 and c2300, so I assume the problem is with the speakers. Any suggestions, ideas? Thank you in advance.
****Obviously these are not snare-specific suggestions, (and are presented with the usual disclaimers: Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.)****
Exactly; and it remains the key question still unanswered by the OP: why is it only the snare that seems to be affected? How do other instruments sound? More info would be very useful for helping to solve the problem.
High humidity can adversely affect the performance of an electrostat. In my experience there's an optimum bias setting for the voltage applied to the panel, and that optimum voltage may change with the ambient humidity. If the bias setting is user-adjustable, that might be something to look at. The bias voltage settings for my SoundLabs decreased significantly when I moved from my barely sea-level home way down yonder in New Orleans to my mile-high-and-dry home in Idaho.
Also, if I recall correctly, the SL-3 combines a line-source-approximating panel with a point-source woofer. Such systems can deliver the best of both worlds, but face a unique challenge: The sound pressure level falls off more gradually with distance from the panel than from the woofer. This can result in the system sounding unbalanced if the combination of listening distance and room acoustics are significantly different from what the designer had in mind. So perhaps even moreso than with conventional speakers, experimentation with speaker and listener positioning is called for... but the good news is, if this is part of what's going on, experimentation is likely to yield significant benefits.
Obviously these are not snare-specific suggestions, and are presented with the usual disclaimers: Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.
elegal I have the Sota Sapphire and Grado reference; with my lack of phono preamp loading options I hear the same comparing the grado to high output moving coil... theres more presence and high frequency articulation with even a simple Denon high output MC. The MM fans will shout out that you can fix this if you have a section to adjust the loading.
I think Geoff Kait is onto something. Is a speaker hooked up out of phase, possibly? Decay trails, intelligibility and sounds with a fine sheen are always compromised when phase/polarity reversals are present.
Allowing for the possibility that Elegal is particularly sensitive to and keyed into the sound of the snare, I fail to see how changing the interconnect cable so that the sound he is hearing from the snare ("terrible/muffled") can be transformed to acceptable without creating a slew of problems for the sound of other instruments; IOW, other instruments sounding in the frequency range of the snare which sounded acceptable previously would then be too bright and forward. Power cords and vibration control would clearly be a help across the board; but still....... That is the problem with focusing on the sound of one instrument (or one type of music for that matter) when choosing equipment or tweaking a system, and leads to the typical audiophile chase which "solves" one problem and creates others. Until the OP reports back on how other recordings of Bolero sounded on his system, my money is still on unrealistic expectations for the sound of an ORCHESTRAL snare as the problem.
This kind of reminds me of when one of the UASF bands was on tour & I attended the concert. Twice I had the opportunity. The last time I was seated a bit farther away in an old refurbushed multilevel theater. Some of the HF I expected to be a bit brighter... but realized that SPL follows the inverse square law. Double the distance & SPL drops by 75%.
Looking at the charts in previous posts shows not much output over 700Hz. Not sure if that's entirely the case...
My supposition is that your new speakers are giving you a new level of clarity and resolution. Now you are hearing things in the chain from recording to sound waves not heard before. I too have a Sota Sapphire. Reference my system page. Try this experiment if you are so inclined: Get some pieces of rubber or dense foam rubber and wedge them between the wood chassis and sub-chassis thereby fixing the suspended sub-chassis in place. You can place the rubber or foam in the gap around the bottom of the turntable. Check that the platter remains level and you will need to readjust your speed. (Make sure the suspension is not bottomed or topped out.) What is happening here is that you are fixing the distance between the motor pulley and platter spindle. Now the speed of the platter will be more consistent. Isolation of the platter will not be quite as good now; but this is a temporary set-up. Play Bolero now and see what you think.
Elegal - did you listen to this track with your other speakers and find the snare muffled by comparison with the MLs, or is this just with regard to the MLs alone and not in comparison to other speakers? This is a critical question that has been asked before but as far as I can see has not been answered.
I do have that recording on a "Great Performances" reissue. I have several LPs from the CBS Great Performances series and have always been satisfied with the sound quality and mastering. I just played it, paying particular attention to overall instrumental balance and tone and clarity of the snare drum in particular. On this pressing I found the the snare drum to sound exemplary for classical concert snare--clean, full-bodied, dry (i.e., no discernible shell ringing), with good body and tonal balance. It primarily emanates from the right channel. I've played drums for 50 years and have played a myriad of snare drums including a few professional orchestral snares, and the sound on this recording is right on the money, and easy to hear on my pressing on my system.
Since the snare sound primarily comes from one channel, you may want to check the L-R balance to make sure your channels are balanced. Also, good reproduction of snare drum relies on phase coherence. I listen through Magneplanar 1.7s, and while they're pretty inexpensive in this crowd, they *are* phase-coherent, devoid of cabinet noise and resonances, and have excellent transient response throughout the frequency range. Since your speakers combine a dynamic woofer for the fundamentals with dipole panels for the overtones of a snare drum, it could be speaker location relative to the room that is causing some sort of null in your listening position.
You already mentioned you got some improvement with some cable changes. Might I suggest you try some Transparent cabling? Their little black boxes seem to help keep phase relationships and tonal balance where it belongs. I've heard Transparent cabling in some delicately picky high end setups, always with good results. I'm talking Wilson Alexandria XL/Alexia/Sasha spkrs, D'Agostino/Audio Research/VTL electronics, and SME/DPS+Lyra turntable setups.
Of course, if tube gear, for good sound, always make sure tubes are in good working condition, and if vinyl/lp, any deficiencies in proper setup of the cart and/or mismatches between components in teh phono system could have ill effects on dynamics, etc.
IS teh stylus known to be in good condition as well?
So many things can go wrong easily just over teh course of time with tubes and vinyl in particular.
Of course, step 1 is still to know the recording and what to expect out of it as many above have alluded to.
I looked at the album: it is CBS masterworks. Leonard Bernstein conducting French National Orchestra. Catalogue number MX35860. That is all the info I can glean from the cover.
While I look up the recording of Bolero to which I was listening, can you recommend a good IC cable. I am currently using balanced/xlr, but am not wedded to that choice.
I've carefully read through this thread and still don't know which performance and recording (other than that it's vinyl) of Bolero the OP is listening to. I have a few recordings of Bolero and might be able to do a comparison if I have the one in question (but so far unmentioned).
A very good recording with nice snare dynamics from start to finish is "She's So Cold" by The Rolling Stones on their Emotional Rescue album ( a very good recording overall as well).
However, last night, I was listening to Bolero, and the snare sounded terrible.... These speakers sound good on bass, but also seem to be lacking on cymbals as well.... All: can you please recommend a good reference LP? I currently do not have a cd player hooked up to my system.
Perhaps one of the others can recommend a good currently available recording of Prokofiev's Lieutenant Kije Suite or Romeo and Juliet ballet excerpts. (All of the versions I have on LP are no longer in print). Snare drum and cymbals are well represented on both.
Elegal, as Mapman says, then you have a good point of reference. Please tell us what recording of Bolero you are listening to; that may be very instructive.
Seems to be a simple cabling synergy/mis-match issue to me.. Change a component within a system, more so the speakers - you'll most likely have to re-finetune to get things to perfect again. Some cables tending toward the rich full side usually do thicken hence muffled/faint attacks/leading edge of certain instrumentations.
Call the CableCo./your dealer to borrow some and play around a bit (IC, SC, PC - depending on what you have and are currently using - zoom in on the 'suspect' and try switching that piece out) I'm quite sure with a little effort your problem could be overcome quickly this way ie.find that right balance for your system and taste. In my case, having had similar issue, the swapping of one IC going from dac>pre does the trick. Good luck.
I am skeptical that the issue is with the speaker. If you had British box speakers I might understand but a planar or electrostatic should do well on cymbal transients. You indicated the source was LP; what is your turntable, arm and cartridge combination?
Well, if you recall it live in a good venue, then you have an excellent frame of reference for what it can sound like.
Unfortunately, recordings seldom sound exactly like any particular live performance. So many factors impact what you hear live and what you hear playing a recording, including production related factors!!
USually simple 2 or three mike recordings have the best shot at delivering somwthing that most resembles what might be heard live. Have not heard it but the Telarc 3 mike production sounds like a decent bet.
Or if you can find a Bolero on labels known to record in this manner, like vintage Mercury Living Presence, or more modern Dorian or Mapleshade labels, go for it!
FROGMAN, I have heard Bolero live many times. I frequently attend Davies Hall to hear the SF symphony. This year, they played Bolero on opening night, and the recollection of that performance is still very vivid. That performance was the main reason for my lack of satisfaction when listening to Bolero on my stereo.
Here's a Bolero to consider: Jesus' Lopez-Cobos conducting the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra on Telarc. I haven't heard it but the review I read seems like the highest recommendatino possible.
The review was written by Bert Whyte, co-founder and recording engineer for Everest Recordings. His review recalled when he heard the New York Phil play Bolero and it gave him goosebumps and raised the hair on the nape of his neck. After that early experience, he heard Bolero played several times, but never had that physical reaction again until he played the Telarc/Lopez-Cobos/Cin'ti Symphony Orch. rendition on his home stereo.
Telarc recorded symphonies with three omnidirectional microphones, and Cincinnati's Music Hall (where it was recorded) is one of the best acoustical venues in the US. Here it is.
A lot of good points made by Frogman, Al and Lowrider (and I love Frogman's lighter note link). One thing that was asked earlier but hasn't been addressed by the OP, I think, is has he used this recording as a reference before he got the Martin Logans, and did it sound different then. If not, I think he needs to listen to familiar recordings to see if the problem might reside in the speakers or somewhere else.
That's a good find, Frogman, Muti with the Philadelphia playing Bolero as it was intended to be. And it is a modern-day recording.
Yes, the snare is very well defined in that clip, but it is unlike anything one is likely to hear at a performance.
I haven't seen Bolero live, but in the case of the Vienna performance, it's true that when seated in the audience, the piece would sound completely different than the recording. (do to the fact that no mic's are used in the concert hall when played live; they are only being fed to the audio recorders).
Having said that, I'll bet that Elegal's recording is similar to the Muti performance. Even the sound from the woodwinds is from a distance and evenly mixed with the snare. I don't know how over the years the engineering took priority over keeping the integrity of the performance. Since the mid 1970s the mic's were getting placed closer to the instruments and then progressed to adding even more mic's.
I would much rather hear classical music recordings sound natural and open rather than unbalanced and up close. With today's technology, it is possible to use minimal miking and still have good detail.
I just realized I'm ranting, so the bottom line in this thread is to use a reference recording and not Ravel's Bolero.
Great article, Al; interesting read and thanks for sharing. Would be interesting to see similar graphs showing the effect on high frequency content relative to low frequency content at different distances from the microphone. On a lighter note:
A further and probably more significant point than the one I just mentioned: Take a look at these graphs, which are presented in this article. The high frequency content of a snare drum hit, relative to the lower frequency content, is much greater when the instrument is played loudly compared to when it is played softly.
As the article says, "the harder you strike a snare drum, the louder it becomes, and the more energy is radiated at higher frequencies."
As Frogman noted, in "Bolero" the snare "gets louder only as other instruments join in."
Great points by Frogman and Lowrider, as might be expected. I would add one other thought, which is that putting all other factors aside the nature of our hearing mechanisms is such that a snare drum will tend to sound at least a little bit "muffled" when played softly, in comparison to when it is played loudly. The reason being the Fletcher-Munson Effect; i.e. the sensitivity of our hearing to upper treble frequencies (as well as deep bass frequencies), relative to its sensitivity to mid frequencies, declines as volume decreases.
Lowrider makes very good points about the role of the conductor and producer in determining the sound of the orchestra and solo instruments (in the case of a piece like Bolero). Sometimes the end result of a producer's "artistic license" can be a good thing; other times, as in the Dudamel/Vienna Youtube clip, not so good. Yes, the snare is very well defined in that clip, but it is unlike anything one is likely to hear at a performance. The balance between the snare and opening flute solo is totally wrong. The players may be playing a true pianissimo but it doesn't sound that way due to the miking. It is true, as Lowrider points out, that most modern recordings of the piece will be close(r) miked; an unfortunate reality from the standpoint of faithfulness to the score, even if sometimes sounding "better defined". Not even sitting on stage will one hear a snare sound that way when the player is playing a true pianissimo.
In this other performance, notice what the snare drum player has done which is fairly common: he has placed a small towel on the drumhead in order to further mute the sound (he also is situated further upfront within the orchestra); it is possible that is what the OP is hearing as "muffled". This is closer to what one is likely to hear sitting in the audience at a live performance:
Frogman makes an excellent point and I agree with him except for one caveat; that most modern day performances of "Bolero" would be close-mic'd. The overall sound is determined by the record label producers (many classical labels have a 'house sound"), in conjunction with the engineers. The top conductors can also be involved in how their orchestra should sound.
Here's an example of Bolero with a well defined percussion section. The snare does start as pianissimo and builds to forte, but it is very prominent in the mix.
You need to provide more information for suggestions to be relevant. Have you ever heard "Bolero" live? Are you aware that the snare is supposed to be played as softly as possible and slowly gets louder only as other instruments join in? Often, the snare is situated at the rear of the orchestra so it will, in fact, sound "distant"; even later in the piece when the orchestra is playing fff. Now, you feel that it also sounds "muffled". Do the string pizzicato (plucked) notes have the appropriate snap? Do the upper winds and brass have the appropriate brilliance? If they do, then it's unlikely that the problem is your system. You may be expecting the kind of snare sound that is often heard in pop or jazz recordings where a mic is placed very close to the snare. Most well recorded classical recordings will not provide that kind of sound.
Did you read the Stereophile Review linke in my previous post? On page 4, Wes Phillips takes about 1/2 page to describe and lament how difficult it was to get ideal placement for these speakers.
Since they are dipoles, I can see where placement could create a self-cancellation effect and cause certain frequency ranges or overtone patterns to recede or disappear.
Here's how I test my preamp, amp, speakers, and cables: I bought a drum kit, flat microphones, good digital recorder, and recorded the kit. Play it back. Truth is truth. I do the same with other instruments.
Are you comparing to how this recording sounded with your previous (Genesis?) speakers? Do you notice this with other recordings with snare drums as well? Also, noticed you were asking about speakers you could place close to the wall in a previous thread. Do you have the MLs placed in close proximity to the wall? If so maybe try pulling them further into the room just to see if that changes anything, and maybe also try playing around with toe-in (not sure how that works with MLs though)?
As for recordings, if you have it try Patricia Barber's Modern Cool -- if the snare sounds like mush to you on that recording then that may be a concern. That said, I do find my friend's MLs project sounds like snare drums in a slightly more diffuse manner and with a little less snap and drive than my dynamic speakers, but it still sounds good and realistic but just in a different way. Best of luck with this and hope this helps somewhat.
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