Bidat vs Perfect Wave vs Weiss and others

I did buy the HiFace with the BNC connector. I use bnc/rca adapters. I will await your modified hiface review before opting for this option. As a user of the batter powered Power Dac I can attest to little if any difference when operated on battery vs AC power. Not saying there won't be a difference but as one who has designed power supplies, the differences in my opinion can be nill. If good quiet regulators are used the battery option should make very little difference. If they are noisy, it may add a noticeable benefit to the sound.

Ok, just got and installed the latest HiFace driver for OSX 10.5.X and I am happy to report that it is 100% bit perfect (pops and ticks are gone!!!) and sounds FANTASTIC!!! It has edged out the built in Tos output (using real-glass Tos).

I am very very pleased and I think I will be purchasing a few more of these units. This is the device we have been waiting on... 24/192khz capable (FAR FAR better than any USB dac I have heard) and for $180.00 (BNC).

Final word on the MSB, this has been the MOST difficult digital product I have ever judged.., whew!!!

OK, on the right vibration control equipment (you must experiment) under and on top AND with the right interface feeding it...I now love it. I am using the HiFace with the unit with the latest drivers and it is so good I pulled the ad of off Agon (yeas I was going to sell it, but no-longer).

I highly recommend it, but it takes a bit of care to ring the best out of it. In my opinion this is not a plug and play dac. One must 'tune' it so to speak. When it is burned in and paired with the right source it is an awesome sounding device. I am keeping it :)

Oh, I am still purchasing the Playback Designs MPD-5. I don't think I am opting for the SACD version as I don't own any (sold them a while ago) and I don't really spin physical media.

Audiofun, I am enjoying living vicariously through your DAC reviews. I have heard great things about the MSB Platinum and the Playback Designs - it will be interesting to hear your impressions of how they compare.

One red herring for me in this thread is the comment that the Weiss and Berkeley sound similar and that if one isn't impressed with the Weiss then they won't like the Berkeley. I think you will find Chris Connaker's review on Computer Audiophile to confirm this point. Now, that being said, as good as the Berkeley is to my ears it does have a HF "zing" on CDRB.

The other thing about the Berkeley, which may be true on other DAC's as well, is that it is sensitive to incoming jitter and noise. In other words, to hear the Berkeley at its best one needs a very high quality AES or SPDIF interface. The Lynx AES16 is nowhere near good enough IMO. As I posted above, a Legato async USB-to-SPDIF converter made a dramatic improvement in sound quality. Berkeley is coming out with their own async USB-to-AES converter which I suspect will produce the best sonic performance.

Anyway, keep us posted on your continuing quest. Have you thought about trying a Metric Halo ULN-8 DAC? This unit has gotten tremendous praise from both the pro audio and audiophile worlds. You need a Mac with a firewire interface and a DB25-to-XLR or RCA converter. The ULN-8 has a built in pre-amp and can function as a digital cross-over.

Some info on the new APL standalone DACs is now up on the APL website. I believe the smaller one is around $5K. I have the prototype for the larger one and its outstanding.

sorry to hijack but i am very curious about the converter mentioned above from berkeley. may i ask where you heard this and can you provide any more details? i am a very happy owner of an alpha dac and this could be super relevant to my server future.

a side comment, i do not hear the hf zing you spoke of in my system. i do have an outstanding aes3 cable (mit oracle ma-x...head and shoulders above any i auditioned) but even when i was auditioning other cables i did not notice this characteristic.

audiofun...appreciate your efforts and have been following your thread for a while. many thanks!

Thanks guys, the fact that anyone is interested in my findings makes it all worth while. I have never heard the Berkley so I cant comment on its sound. I would also like to know more about the Berkey converter, sounds very interesting.

I have had people tell me who have heard the Weiss and Berkley dac in the same sys that if I was not fond of the Weiss I would not like the Berkley.., but again without actually hearing it for myself... I have no opinion :)

I will keep everyone posted on my findings.

Richard_stacy, what do you use as your AES source/transport? I'm using a Lynx AES16 with my Berkeley Alpha DAC and it's possible the HF "zing" I hear is caused by the jitter and noise characteristics of that sound card. Although others have reported the same finding and they were using other transports (e.g. ULN-8 firewire to AES).

Regarding the Berkeley USB-to-AES converter, several people have reported being told by Berkeley they will be to market with such a device around mid-year priced somewhere between $1-2K. Based on my experimentation with the Legato I think this converter will outperform my Lynx AES16 and perhaps many other AES source devices. Time will tell.

Audiofun,

It sounds like the MSB is an impressive DAC. If I could trouble you to give a final verdict on how it sounds playing back 44.1 material compared to the modded Bidat's performance, I'd appreciate it. I know you've left spinning cd's behind, but I'd like to know whether the MSB beats the Bidat for redbook playback. I can't wait to hear how the Playback Designs unit does.

Thanks for sharing your journey.

Vance

Hey Vance, stand by on the Bidat full on comparison. It took me so long to get the MSB singing I want to do justice to that head to head comparison.

earflappin...

i use logitech transporter so it is a wireless stream. certainly the digital cable is cleaning up some of the issues that could be there too. downside is the limitation to 24/96 but i have little above that, for now. i am alsways looking for a better way but i have gotten so use to the convenience as well as the interface. i find the quality to be quite satisfying and man do i love this dac. i also run direct to my amplifier.

i did some searches after i posted and found a quote from michael ritter in another forum where he talked about the converter. it was pretty old so this must have been in the works for some time. thats pricey for what it is!

richard_stacy,

Thanks for the further details of your set-up. Are you going AES or SPDIF BNC from the Transporter to the BADAC? I see that the Transporter supports both. I can't tell from the Transporter specs if they use galvanic isolation or not. If so, then you are no doubt a leg up on those who are going direct from an AES sound card into the BADAC.

I'll report back my experience with the modded HiFace 24/192 async USB to SPDIF interface. The guy who does the mod also has a heavily modded Transporter and he says the modded HiFace is better (i.e. lower jitter and noise). It should be, however, as the modded HiFace is being powered by 3.3v lithium batteries.

I also love my BADAC. On a price/performance basis I think it is hard to beat currently, but the competition is not standing still. If one is willing to contend with DB25 connectors and a DAW interface for set-up, then I suspect the MH ULN-8 could be better than the BADAC.

I hope Berkeley come out with a Beta DAC soon. My wish list for improvements would be: (1) discrete output stage (the Alpha has a pretty pedestrian opamp design), (2) better internal clock and (3) an async USB-to-I2S interface (as opposed to having to go async USB-to-AES-AES-to-I2S). Berkeley touts their belief that one should not house the format conversion circuitry in the same chassis as the DAC....why not design one unit with a double chassis....

earflappin...

i use the aes connection and have not tried the others. when i bought the dac i asked berkeley for their recommendation and they strongly encouraged the aes3 connection. another thing that really helps with the transporter is cleaning up the power. it seems more sensitive to power cables than most of my gear. i found this odd as i only use it as a tranport but most of this is odd! at present, i have an isoclean superfocus power cord to an acoustic revive rtp4 ultimate condtioner (that is one amazing device but thats another post...). a massive improvement.

your wishlist for the beta version is mostly over my head. i have considered an external clock and recently had a discussion with another member about the antelope clock. i have not heard this personally but he suggested it would be a significant improvement.

"If one is willing to contend with DB25 connectors and a DAW interface for set-up, then I suspect the MH ULN-8 could be better than the BADAC." i have no idea what any of this is!! you guys are a few steps ahead of me but this is another reason i enjoy reading your discussion. i do learn a great deal and it also gives me new directions to research.

Power supply quality is a key determinant of ultimate sound quality since audio is transmitted as modulated power. The Transporter is a fine product, but it is built to a price point and compromises have to be made by the designers. The fact that you have found power cables and conditioning to have a very audible impact points to the stock power supplies being a weak link. No surprise - one of the more popular mods for the Transporter is improving the power supplies. Clocking performance is especially sensitive to power supply quality which in turns effects jitter. Properly implemented - better power should result in lower jitter and noise which means better sound quality.

Externally clocking the Transporter could make an improvement for sure. The only way to know is to experiment. The Antelope OCX is a great clock. For less than half the price you might also try the Black Lion Audio Microtec Mk2. You can buy both the Antelope and BLA products with 15-30 day right of return from various e-tailers.

Bottom line, I suspect you could get even better sound quality from your BADAC by: (1) trying external word clock for the Transporter and (2) using an Antelope DA for AES noise isolation OR trying an outboard async USB-to-AES/SPDIF converter (which would require using a computer server). IME, noise isolation pays bigger dividends than improved clocking so I'd try an Antelope DA before an ext word clock.

If you don't suffer from OCD like most of us audiophiles (!) then just enjoy what you have and do nothing but enjoy the music...:-)

Ok, so my Bidat showed up today the very latest mod from John Wright. With only about 30 minutes on the clock I will say that I find it a bit more musical than the MSB. It was wierd it was like it clicked when the components inside started heating up. I have compared redbook (Jane Monheit) so far and the Bidat renders her more beautifully. On 24/96 material downsampled by itunes, they are very close but when I allow the MSB to play the same material at 96khz one can readily hear the increase in spatial information.

I will let it cook for the next few days and report back this wknd but so far I am very glad I had the mod done... Man the Bidat is an incredible machine...

Audiofun,

Not bad for a unit that ended production more than 14 years ago, nes pas? It's a classic hotrod and only gets better with time.

There's one for sale right now; looks like it's in good condition and I can't believe no one's snapped it up yet.

The one that's for sale was also mine, I had 2 of them :)

John Wright just told me he didn't want to hear my opinion on the Bidat until 3 weeks have elapsed LOL!!!

One man, two bidats...there must be a Chinese proverb about that..

Ok, so I will try to make this concise and clear:

With about 25 hours on the Bidat I did some preliminary testing last evening. Note that John Wright has informed me that the Bidat mods need 3 weeks to fully settle in so this is a sort of "take it for what it is" review.

I just found out that HDTracks is now carrying the Verve Catalog and they have Diana Krall "Quiet Nights" on 24/96khz FLAC ready for download. I already owned the Redbook version so I thought, great I will download it and compare the various versions.

I converted the flac files to AIFF using Max (I run a mac mini using the HiFace converter and a FIM Gold digital S.E. cable to the various dacs).

I first compared the Bidat and MSB Power Dac using the 24/96 material down-sample in iTunes to 44.1khz. That is a no-no iTunes did not do a very good job and I did not like the sound on either machine. I then compared the 24/96khz material down-sampled to 44.1 using PureMusic (MUCH MUCH better than iTunes doing the down-sampling :) the sound was very close, but I noted that the Bidat did not seem to sound as good with the down-sampled material as the MSB...it had a sort of constrained uptight character to the overall flavor of the music.

Next up I compared the 24/96 version played (obviously) on the MSB to the Redbook on the Bidat. This is a comparison that I don't think yielded much real world information. The material is mastered too differently, the Redbook is compress (like most RB material) whereas the 24/96 material is very relaxed and flowing. Despite this I walked away thinking the MSB 24/96 was most enjoyable, but the Bidat RB was more energetic. That last statement may seem to contradict my comments concerning compression, but it really does not, I did note both characteristics.

Now this is the test I believe was most telling. RB on the Bidat vs the MSB. Bidat wins!!!

Ok, kidding it is not that simple. The Bidat does in fact sound far more musical than the MSB all things being equal, but when one allows PureMusic to handle the number crunching duties instead of iTunes, the MSB becomes so close to the Bidat (kissn cousins) I can not readily make a decision as to which is better (remember the Bidat only has 25 hours on it). I would go so far as to say that ANYONE who owns the MSB owes to themselves to purchase the PuerMusic software (and before anyone asks, no I do not have any type of relationship with the folks a ChannlD other than they got my $129.00 for the PureMusic s.w. :)

PM on the MSB is really beautiful, but with the Bidat.., NOT so much. The Bidat did not take to the PM very well at all in fact I flat did not care for the sound. The Bidat has a character which is simply breathtaking and the PM did not mix well with its' natural character.

This is perfect as the Bidat is on 44.1/48khz so I don't need the sample rate switching abilities of PM when I listen to the Bidat. Thus the PM software will be used exclusively with the MSB in my system.

Killer digital = Bidat + Mac Mini + M2Tech HiFace + REALLY REALLY GOOD Coax digital cable

or

MSB + Mac Mini + PureMusic Software + M2Tech HiFace + REALLY REALLY GOOD Coax digital cable (Note I have found that the best filter to use with the MSB is the default filter).

Ok, there you have it. I will follow this up when the Bidat fully breaks in.

Audiofun,

Thanks for the fascinating and detailed update. I had little doubt that the Bidat would have trouble keeping up in the hi rez domain. It just doesn't have the computing power. Not to take anything away from the fine work being done at MSB, but it is amazing that a $2000 DAC manufactured in the mid 90's is keeping up with a brand new $8,000 stat-of-the-art converter when it comes to Redbook. John Wright has figured out a way to really squeeze the very most out of the 44.1 material without losing the music. For those of us with extensive redbook collections, the modded Bidat is a valuable treasure. If Mr. Wright ever figures out a way to take this technology into the hi rez realm he'll have a giant killer for the future. If music distributors ever start offering ALL of their material via hi rez on the web, everything will change. Until then, I'm glad I have a Bidat.

Tomorrow marks the 2 week run-in of my modded Bidat. It has changed dramatically in those 2 weeks. I think by now you folks know that I like my Power Dac, but the Bidat is beginning to pull ahead and open the gap a bit.

I was asked by a fellow audiophile what I thought the differences were between the two and I put it as such:
The Bidat (if both are compared to women) would be more of a ravishing beauty with not quite as much depth, while the MSB would be likened to a very attractive woman with perhaps a more cerebral tilt. Leaving that analogy for a moment, if you stood at an abyss and the music were emanating from somewhere in the abyss, the MSB would portray that music as coming from a much deeper point than the Bidat....That was until about 2 days ago.

The Bidat now has that seemingly bottomless pit depth of sound origination plus it remains the ravishing beauty of the bunch. At this point I would say it is the best D/A I have ever experienced (not just owned.., experienced).

Now the MSB is no slouch and for $4300 ($5k with volume control) it is simply one of the best most musical dacs available and really does break the cookie cutter sterile sound of so many highly praised dacs which fail to deliver anything resembling music.

Stay tuned I shall continue to comment as things unfold.

One other thing concerning the MSB, you have probably read people describe its character (sound) as laid-back. It is... it is a very languid sounding unit, and if you decide to team it with a preamplifier, I suggest you do NOT use a laid back euphonic warm and fuzzy pre. Something a bit on the concise and fast side of the track would probably work better. I could imagine the Sonic Frontiers 'Line' series would be a good match as well as others.

Audiofun,

Is the MSB unit you have the company's top-of-the-line configuration? Additionally, I'm assuming your most recent post applies to redbook only?

this thread has be fantastic. much appreciated Audiofun!. those of us who can't delve into the upper echelons of digital (but dream anyway) have been enjoying it greatly. although you've made clear these are only your thoughts/opinions, they've seemed very honest, clear and helpful. man i'd love to be you!!! =)

thanks again

cheers
Lev

I have a power dac which is according to MSB is a Platinum without the modularity. The power dac has the 16x filter not the 32x filter and it has the second gen dac modules not the signature. I have been told by unnamed persons at MSB that it is very very close in sound to the Platinum Signature dac but the signature has more detail. More was said but I don't want to put it on this forum, hope you guys understand.

The testing was on redbook but honestly as the bidat has broken in, 24 bit material down sampled sounds very good, but head to head on Diana Krall Quiet Nights 24/96khz : the MSB playing at full resolution vs the bidat playing the file being down sampled by iTunes ... The MSB is noticeably better and not by a little.

Lev: Thanks man... I am having fun and I am very glad some people are enjoying my quest/endeavor. Like I said when I started this thread it was about comparing dacs head to head and reporting what "I" heard ... unbiased.

As I have found many dacs don't stand up to muster, but for a currently available dac I do think the MSB gear (when massaged correctly :) is in the top echelon. I still have to get the Playback Designs MPD-5 which I am really looking forward to. I'll report more as I hear things worth a blurb or two.

Audiofun, I'm a big Bidat fan, so it's very entertaining for me to read your thread. When was your Bidat upgraded the last time prior to sending it to John? I had mine upgraded to latests form back in 2006. I wonder if you can share your thouhgts on John's latest upgrade.
As far as digital cables going I've been using ebay version of glass toslink with my Bidat for several years. It's a unique glass toslink that outperformed Wireworld Super Nova 5. It's directional and sound very different from other dozen of identical cables I bought from ebay. I have no idea why though... Anyhow this toslink was not quite in the same league as Marigo Apparition 5.7 or Reference 2 cables (though it outperformed Apparition 3A) it had a very interesting midrange that added some special touch to female vocalist, something that I couldn’t live without. I’ve been using this cable as my main digital interconnect until I discovered Belkin Digital Synapse cable. It's so good that I don't think I will ever replace it with anything else (I mean with Bidat DAC). It acts as some sort of filter that get's rid off high frequency noise and allow you to hear recording the way it was intended to be heard (isn’t what we always say when we try to justify the purchase?). It's like highest quality analog playback without any digital emphasis. The most interesting part is that I never felt like I had a digital flavor in my system until I heard this coax. You won't know that until you hear it. Another interesting aspect that worse mentioning is upper bass and lower midrange. I think this is the most critical frequency spectrum that adds body to vocalist and controls my comfort level. Bidat has this range covered better than any other DAC I’ve heard.

Tpaxadon: Well this is my 3rd Bidat :) My original Bidat was purchased around 1997 when I heard from a reputable source that a number of the bigger reviewers of the day were using Bidats on the hush hush for their personal syste, (regardless of what they were writing of the +$30K dac crowd). It was a SuperBidat. Now in November 1998 I sold it when I bought the Sony SCD-1...selling my Bidat is what I consider the biggest mistake since getting into this hobby :)

I had another Bidat (owned 2 at the same time) which was a plus but done earlier by the fellow who owned it before me so I don't know when it was modded, I do know it was at least 2 years ago because I bought it from a friend who had it for that time and it was modded when he acquired it. I sold that unit, as my current model was being finished up by John. This unit will have 3 weeks on it come this Wednesday :)

I will purchase and try one of the Belkin digital cables. I use a Monarchy Audio Glass Tos which is absolutley fantastic and as I have stated elsewhere in this thread the only digital cable I have tried which can match the FIM Gold Coax digital cable. I have to use Tos with the Bidat for now, because the Bidat takes up residence in my bedroom system connected to a Mac Mini. Whilst I do use and love the HiFace by M2Tech (I use in "Hog Mode") with the MSB, I can't use it with the Bidat because the Bidat currently does double duty when watching movies. The HiFace uses a big memory buffer which cause lip Sync issues (with video) thus I use the Tos.

"Hog Mode" is a feature of Pure Music which allows me to permanently anchor one output to iTunes. Thus when I play songs from iTunes whichever dac is plugged into the Hiface will play while the Audio Midi setting are set to "System Output" and everything else will be played out the built in output of the mac mini. This works well and I think it was ingenious of the ChannlD folks to come up with this.

The Bidat is still one of the Finest 16 bit playback machines extant and a permanent resident in my system... Heck im still thinking of picking up a second one... again LOL!!!

FYI, I want to be clear that the Bidat DOES work incredibly well with the HiFace unit when listening to music maybe even sounds a tad better on some material (perhaps due to the memory mode buffer) than the built in Tos (tlaking Tos with a superb glass cable). But is you use the Bidat for audio when watching movies or actually ANY dac the Hiface will cause lip-sync error i.e. the speech will lag the video by about .25 seconds or so (timing is a rough guess I did not measure it :)

Tpaxadpom,

I have a Bidat that has gone through two sets of Mods; one in late 2007 and one in December of 2009. Audiofun's unit was done in 2010, shortly after John made a power supply breakthrough. The difference between the first and second mods, for me, was that the unit's soundstage was deepened and the whole presentation was made more "analog" and more "musical," which is saying quite a bit when you consider how musical the Bidat already was. I have heard the results of John's power supply innovation on my Museatex Bitstream, so I plan on getting the same treatment performed on my Bidat. Certainly, the latest mods are a quantum leap ahead of the 2006 mods.

Thanks for the info guys. Well I better get my Bidat ready for shipping then. :) So it sounds like the latest break through in upgrades happened early this year? The only problem now is I don't know how I"m going to live wthout Bidat in my stereo setup. In the past I had Bitstream and Idat-44 to rely on while Bidat was traveling.
Friend of mine brought his Bitstream over to my house as it’s been a while since I have listened to it. His unit was upgraded at the same time as my Bidat. It does sound good but very distant from Bidat. Line out is much lower (I use passive preamp) so it’s hard to say why it didn’t impress me. Also it was sensitive to the choice of digital cable. I could hear the difference between toslink and coax, but Synapse wasn’t making such a dramatic change as with Bidat. When I purchased my Bidat it already had Ed Meitner's Plus update (add-on vertical PCA attached to the main PCA). The sound of Idat-44 (battery powered in stock form) in AB comparison was realy close to Bidat. Though I realized what I was missing very shortly after I shipped Bidat to John to get the latest mods installed. Bitstream sounded very different from idat-44 and bidat. Line out on Bitstream prior to updates was higher than on Bidat, with Idat-44 being the quietest. I heard Idat-44 past John’s2008 upgrade only briefly. It wasn’t broken-in yet, so it sounded harsh. I sold Idat-44 before it had the John’s updates installed and the guy who bought it asked me to get the latest mods from John before shipping it over to him overseas. I should have kept that little unit, but it was sitting and collecting dust I figured I should let someone else enjoy it instead.
I use M-Audio Transit in asynchronous mode with my PC laptops. It doesn’t sound horrible, but nothing special whatsoever. I read about its hidden asynchronous mode of operation. If you connect toslink input it will lock to sampling frequency of the clock extracted from the stream. This is not as good as having a good clock on the board but typically better then synchronous mode of operation. I was planning on buying Empirical USB-SPDIF converter but changed my mind several times. Now I’m happy I’ve done that as there are new generation converters from wavelength, empirical audio, as well as hiface, musicaland and such…

Ok, so I can say that now the Bidat is one of the finest 16 bit dacs I have ever heard or owned!!! Having said that, MSB's latest gear is better when playing 24 bit material (as would be expected) but only when one has gone to significant lengths to configure the source optimally. In this case that involves a mac mini, channl D's Pure Music software (which must be setup just right) and other little things.

The Bidat still sounds more ravishing than the MSB, but the MSB simply gives you more information and resolution. Even on 16 bit material the MSB tells you more about the event while being very musical and is the antithesis of the majority of digital I hear out there today. The Bidat is just simply beautiful to listen to; I would say that the Bidat can be plugged into nearly any amp directly and simply allow you to melt into the music, whereas the MSB will need coaxing and perhaps the "right" preamp to ring the best out of it.

Either way they are both fabulous for what they do...the Bidat for rendering the BEST 16 bit music I have ever heard, and the MSB for being nearly as beautiful sounding but with more information being passed along in the process. I see the MSB being my preference when I am listening to complex orchestral pieces or jazz ensembles. Not that the Bidat does not excel at this too, it does but the added information of the MSB lends itself to these formats.

This is the most difficult comparison of 2 products I have ever been involved with...(and you may have noted that at times my statements appear contradictory which attests to the difficulty these two pieces have presented me with) I am keeping both and maybe moving up the MSB line (I have the Power DAC, which is a non modular Platinum DAC 3). I also want to try the Playback Designs MPD-5.

John, the Bidat is a wonder and one of the finest dacs (with your' mods) extant.., well in my listening experiences anyway :)

Also, I have found out that M2Tech will be releasing a higher end product sometime in the future (I don't have a time-line as yet) which will also have a AES/EBU connection. I am completely sold on the HiFace which IS Asynchronous. Guys before you drop major coinage on some of these other USB to SPDIF converter, try the BNC $180.00 24/192khz capable HiFace, I think you may find it as great as I did.

Wanted to clear something up, in speaking with John Wright at Museatex he made me aware that I had been incorrectly refering to his "Factory Upgrades" as mods. He does not do modifications to the Bidat they are factory updates, which makes sense as Museatex is the company which produced the units :)

If you have a Bidat, then you already know it is better that the vast majority of what is being offered, even dacs with very high price tags... but you owe it to yourself to have the latest factory upgrades performed on the unit.

I wanted to also back away from something I stated earlier concerning iTunes down-sampling. It is not nearly as bad as I mentioned when the Bidat first arrived. I can only hypothesize that the pre-broken in Bidat and the down-sampled files didn't have simpatico :) Now that the Bidat is broken in my down-sampled files sound stunning with the Bidat via iTunes... so many variables :)

The Bidat is old stuff upgraded to the 90's old stuff. Get some good cables and you will get rid of the Bidat.

Glory,

You clearly know your audio. What are these incredible cables that you've found? I'm sure they'll impress everyone on this forum because, obviously, no one who's posted here, me included, would have ever tried any esoteric cables. We're just a bunch of shiftless old farts, happy to play around with digital relics until someone with your insight comes along and sets us all straight. Or maybe it's that my and everyone else's cables are all too expensive. I'm sure you'll know.

Vhiner and all other Bidat owner. I stepped out of line and do regreat I typed what I did.

I am sure your cables are fine and doing their job.

Maybe one day I can here a fully modded Bidat and have a good time with it.

Glory,

Perhaps I responded to harshly, but I just wanted us to stick to the point of the forum. If you're ever in the St. Louis area, bring your dac over and I'd be happy to let you listen to it compared to mine. Most people who own the fully modded bidat would be eager to show up for a dac shoot out in their respective neighborhoods. Personally, I'm always open to hearing anything that can "best" it at a comparable price. I have no brand loyalty when it comes to the absolute sound. The problem is that many people simply don't want to have their own assumptions about equipment challenged or even questioned. There may well be a better $2000 dac on the market. I simply haven't heard it yet. There are certainly some $5000 dacs that aren't as good because I've heard them in my own home.

One reason I've appreciated this forum is that someone has taken the time to actually LISTEN to gear and compare them...as opposed to the typical "theoretical" discussions in which people talk about what they've "heard" others "say."

Audiofun, are you still planning to test out a playback design?

I did an 'sighted' A/B comparison today: Museatex Bitstream against a No. 512 Mark Levinson CD player. We used the Levinson as a transport with the Bitstream vs standalone Levinson. Van Den Hul cables and a Moray James digital interconnect. Pre amplifier was Levinson No. 326 with a No 532 Power amplifier. Speakers were F52 Revel Speakers.

My first impressions: You have to level match, the gain output on the Bitstream was much higher, we didn't have an SPL meter on hand so we did it by ear, trying to level match as best we could the Bitstream appeared more lively, big and bold with more punch in the bass. Having said all that I actually preferred the Levinson's neater presentation, in some respects. The Levinsons's soundstange was narrower but I thought it was more refined, the Bitstream was big across the board but I felt it was EVER so slightly smeared. The two were closer in sound then apart. It was a neat test.

Lush,

Thanks for the fascinating post. Given the 512's $15,000 price tag, I imagine you'll be keeping the bitstream?

Has anybody compared a recently modified Bidat to the new Wyred 4s DAC-2?

I've recently compared a friend's modified bistream to the Wyred 4 and the bistream was more musical on Redbook. I own a fully modified Bidat and it is better than the bitstream, so logic would dictate that it probably bests the Wyred 4 DAC. This is not to say the Wyred is not excellent. It just doesn't have the bass and sound stage of the Bidat based upon my having heard both, albeit at different times. The comparison with the bitstream was a bit closer. The advantage of the Wyred is that it handles hi Rez (if you can find any material worth listening to in that format LOL)

I've had the chance lately to listen to the PS Audio Perfect Wave and the Weiss DAC 202 both in my own system. To cut it short: I preferred the Weiss hands down. The sound of the Perfect Wave was on a high level of performance but still a bit edgy while the Weiss showed more of the relaxed, yet detailed sound I've come to get used to. As I am not sold on computer-based reproduction this opinion is based on my CD-Drives (Resolution Audio, Wadia) as the source of the "digital datafeed". I tried different filter settings with the PS Audio but still the Weiss has the upper hand in sheer musicality.

Vhiner, I also own a modified Bidat and a Bitstream DAC. They were modified about two years ago, so they don't have teh very latest upgrades, but they are very nice. I just can't help but wonder how good the new chip set is in the new W4s DAC-2...

Mike1000,

I think it's a very fine DAC for the money and certainly better than some out there that are going for a lot more. I never heard how it handled hi rez, though. Based upon what I've heard, I doubt there are many (any?) sub $5,000 players, DACS or combos that soundly beat the Bidat on Redbook.

Hi guys, I know it has been along long time since I posted on this thread. Some things have changed. I still have the MSB power Dac and i sold the Bidat. I reluctantly sold my Bidat but... the MSB with the new m2Tech EVO was sooooo good I found myself listening to the MSB 90% of the time.
I have since sold the EVO which was noticeably better than the HiFace :)
Actually so much better, I could no longer listen the HiFace, thus I sold it.

I have now sold the EVO and I have just paid for (waiting on delivery) the new 24/192 Diverter.., can't wait!!!!!!

Do I miss my Bidat? Yes and No... I miss some of the vinyl like things it did, but in the end as the MSB continued to break in, the musicality with the resolution was just too much to ignore. I still use PM as the audio engine along with iTunes as the jukebox, BUT!!! I bought a Music First Audio Ref passive Pre and let me tell you.... That combination is killer!!!

Smooth and resolute with some ineffable quality which is akin to the beauty of the Bidat without any coloration.., just a marvelous piece of gear.

I had a PS Audio Dac about a month ago with the bridge installed. I did a head to head comparison with the MSB on RB and hiRes. I used glass tos and the Bridge.

The PWD is very nice and especially when you look at what you can pick them up for, it can be the center of a very nice system.

Now to the Guts of it.... The built in volume control of the PWD simply does NOT cut the mustard! It is ok if you're in a pinch but it would NEVER be my choice for long term. The volume control in PM (I have found that no dither is FAR FAR better than using dither) is so far beyond the PWD's volume control words will not do justice :)

How didit compare to the MSB? In a word... It got SMOKED!!!!!!

It simply is not in the league of a Bidat/AMR77/AMR777 or obviously a MSB.

Now having said that, it was listenable and with the right ancillaries.., probably very livable (that is if you couldn't hear the other units).

I will say this, it was no where near as awful to MY ears as the Weiss Minerva was. If you recall from way back when I started this thread I flat out HATE the sound of that Dac.

The PWD is certainly NOT bad, it just isn't on the same level as the other dacs I mentioned.

Until next time.....

Perhaps I'll have a playback design Dac in the near future :)

Audiofun,

Great to hear an update! Glad you're happy with the MSB.

I have to put in my two cents about a few things. I've never used the Bridge, but I have extensive experience with the Bidat (sold mine a few months back) and the PW DAC and PW transport. When used with a Harmonic Tech HDMI cable, the PW DAC and PW transport SMOKE the Bidat. With all due respect and in the spirit of lively debate, I wouldn't use a glass toslink to drive a radioshack cd player through a $200 DAC; every good DAC system requires the right digital connection and the PW DAC works best with the HT Audio only HDMI or CAT 6, something many users will attest to. BTW, I just heard the latest Bel Canto DAC hooked up to an Computer source via toslink and it was NOT pretty. So, I'm not prepared to say I know what that unit sounds like. The Bel Canto is best with a SPDIF or CAT 6 connection, according to those I've spoken with.

You've found just the right wire and connections for your MSB. Comparisons with other DACS will only be fair if those units are similarly set up with wire that serves those units best. The MSB may well be a superior DAC, but I just wanted to voice a caution to those who haven't made the comparisons themselves or who may plan to. For example, wouldn't predict my old beloved BIDAT would place well if it were hooked up to a lousy power word and an ordinary Canare digital cable any more than i would put crappy tires on a Porshe and expect it to go the distance.

Again, I'm not commenting on whether the MSB is better than the PW DAC 'cause I haven't heard that particular MSB, but I do know how a super modded Bidat sounds compared to a properly set up PW DAC. The PW DAC is just as musical, provides more detail, has a more analog top end, deeper bass and a much wider soundstage. At least that's what my ears tell me. ;-)

Once thing I *do* agree with you about with respect to the PW DAC is that the volume control is not optimal, but neither was the Bidat's and neither is any DAC volume fix I've ever heard. I ALWAYS prefer a good tube preamp with my musical meal.