2. digital
  3. 1265305407

Bidat vs Perfect Wave vs Weiss and others

This is thread I started a while ago and promised in February i would start doing some real world comparative testing using the Bidat (Plus Mod) as the ref. The units under test are to include in no specific order the MSB Platinum Dac, the Weiss Minervera and the Playback Design player. I posted this under the follow-up of the original thread and it is there is you do a search under Digital for "ps audio perfect". I can't understand why it did not 'promote' to the top of the digital section as it did in the past whenever there was a new contribution, so I have started a new related thread with the first entry of my fun (and I hope edifying comparative experiences).
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Ok, I just got a broken in Weiss Minerva (several hundred hours at least). It has been in my system burning in for about 18 hours (18 hours since arriving in my home, time to come to thermal equilibrium). I have done some comparative listening to the Museatex Dcc-1 (a rarely known digital preamp 19 bit dual differential type) using glass Tos on both and then glass on the DCC1 vs a very expensive (can't name it yet as the manufacturer has not released it...sorry :( ) Firewire on the Weiss. I have a Mac Mini (2007 model) 2.0 ghz Core2Duo with 4Gig of ram running Leopard (although this model can only see 3.01 gig of that (I used 4gig as the memory transfer is optimized when the mem modules are the same). I also have a 1TB NAS (all over wifi). I am of course going to reserve final judement until a bit later.

I will be comparing the Museatex Bidat with the Plus Mod later this weekend. As a teaser, I will go on record and say that honestly at this point I don't agree with the stellar reviews concerning the Weiss Minerva.

It is resolute, almost technicolor but just to give you a short glimpse of what I am hearing, I could imagine a well healed vinyl person listening to Holly Cole on vinyl and then listening to the Weiss (playing the same in CD format) and saying "this is why I will never leave vinyl". Now that may sound harsh, but this is a hobby and I don't have a dog in the race, I am just reporting my ears findings.

I listened to a few high resolution files 176.4/24 and 96/24 but what I heard was a really clear highly resolved soul-less rendition of the music. It never ever made me smile or relax into the music the way the DCC-1/Bidat or even my former (when I actually spun cd's...wow time flies) stellar Dynavox Dynastation 2 (the finest CD player I have ever heard).

In a nutshell (at this point) it just sounds like digital and that aint good in my camp because I am not forgetting about the gear and just listening to the music. I don't like syrupy or dark, I have heard plenty of players try to use that trick to sound musical. No, I look for something that is more elusive and few their be that find that magical combination when forging through the nether regions of the digital domain. I will continue listening to see if the Weiss surprises me :)

More to come...
audiofun

Showing 6 responses by earflappin

earflappin
87 posts
 
Many audiophiles have reported similar findings - i.e. DAC's with USB interfaces not sounding as good as the AES or SPDIF interface. Personally, I think this is likely just poor implementation of the USB interface versus an inherent deficiency in the format itself. I don't find this surprising in that the USB and Firewire interface technology is new to the veteran DAC designers. Further, many of the USB interfaces in use are not async which means they use the computer clock for clocking the data transfer which causes high jitter. Therefore, async USB to SPDIF converters like the Legato, HiFace, et. al. will likely be the way to go for many of us.

I have a Berkeley Alpha DAC and recently tried a Legato async USB to SPDIF to compare to my Lynx AES16 interface. The Legato was better in every aspect of performance.

Bottom line, I think as designers master the art of building in async USB interfaces to their DAC's AES/SPDIF will fall by the wayside.

JMO
earflappin
87 posts
 
Apology accepted.... :-) BTW, John Keny (jkeny alias) offers a mod for 50 euros for the HiFace where he uses two outboard lithium batteries to provide the 3.3V to the clock and output stages versus using the stock regs which convert from the incoming 5V from the USB port. I'm getting one. I have to believe it offers a very nice sonic improvement over the already good stock version.

Audiofun - do you have the BNC HiFace or RCA? If your DAC has a BNC input and you are using the RCA HiFace you will be leaving some performance on the table. Check out Mike Galusha's review on Enjoy the Music. He tested both versions.
earflappin
87 posts
 
Audiofun, I am enjoying living vicariously through your DAC reviews. I have heard great things about the MSB Platinum and the Playback Designs - it will be interesting to hear your impressions of how they compare.

One red herring for me in this thread is the comment that the Weiss and Berkeley sound similar and that if one isn't impressed with the Weiss then they won't like the Berkeley. I think you will find Chris Connaker's review on Computer Audiophile to confirm this point. Now, that being said, as good as the Berkeley is to my ears it does have a HF "zing" on CDRB.

The other thing about the Berkeley, which may be true on other DAC's as well, is that it is sensitive to incoming jitter and noise. In other words, to hear the Berkeley at its best one needs a very high quality AES or SPDIF interface. The Lynx AES16 is nowhere near good enough IMO. As I posted above, a Legato async USB-to-SPDIF converter made a dramatic improvement in sound quality. Berkeley is coming out with their own async USB-to-AES converter which I suspect will produce the best sonic performance.

Anyway, keep us posted on your continuing quest. Have you thought about trying a Metric Halo ULN-8 DAC? This unit has gotten tremendous praise from both the pro audio and audiophile worlds. You need a Mac with a firewire interface and a DB25-to-XLR or RCA converter. The ULN-8 has a built in pre-amp and can function as a digital cross-over.
earflappin
87 posts
 
Richard_stacy, what do you use as your AES source/transport? I'm using a Lynx AES16 with my Berkeley Alpha DAC and it's possible the HF "zing" I hear is caused by the jitter and noise characteristics of that sound card. Although others have reported the same finding and they were using other transports (e.g. ULN-8 firewire to AES).

Regarding the Berkeley USB-to-AES converter, several people have reported being told by Berkeley they will be to market with such a device around mid-year priced somewhere between $1-2K. Based on my experimentation with the Legato I think this converter will outperform my Lynx AES16 and perhaps many other AES source devices. Time will tell.
earflappin
87 posts
 
richard_stacy,

Thanks for the further details of your set-up. Are you going AES or SPDIF BNC from the Transporter to the BADAC? I see that the Transporter supports both. I can't tell from the Transporter specs if they use galvanic isolation or not. If so, then you are no doubt a leg up on those who are going direct from an AES sound card into the BADAC.

I'll report back my experience with the modded HiFace 24/192 async USB to SPDIF interface. The guy who does the mod also has a heavily modded Transporter and he says the modded HiFace is better (i.e. lower jitter and noise). It should be, however, as the modded HiFace is being powered by 3.3v lithium batteries.

I also love my BADAC. On a price/performance basis I think it is hard to beat currently, but the competition is not standing still. If one is willing to contend with DB25 connectors and a DAW interface for set-up, then I suspect the MH ULN-8 could be better than the BADAC.

I hope Berkeley come out with a Beta DAC soon. My wish list for improvements would be: (1) discrete output stage (the Alpha has a pretty pedestrian opamp design), (2) better internal clock and (3) an async USB-to-I2S interface (as opposed to having to go async USB-to-AES-AES-to-I2S). Berkeley touts their belief that one should not house the format conversion circuitry in the same chassis as the DAC....why not design one unit with a double chassis....
earflappin
87 posts
 
Power supply quality is a key determinant of ultimate sound quality since audio is transmitted as modulated power. The Transporter is a fine product, but it is built to a price point and compromises have to be made by the designers. The fact that you have found power cables and conditioning to have a very audible impact points to the stock power supplies being a weak link. No surprise - one of the more popular mods for the Transporter is improving the power supplies. Clocking performance is especially sensitive to power supply quality which in turns effects jitter. Properly implemented - better power should result in lower jitter and noise which means better sound quality.

Externally clocking the Transporter could make an improvement for sure. The only way to know is to experiment. The Antelope OCX is a great clock. For less than half the price you might also try the Black Lion Audio Microtec Mk2. You can buy both the Antelope and BLA products with 15-30 day right of return from various e-tailers.

Bottom line, I suspect you could get even better sound quality from your BADAC by: (1) trying external word clock for the Transporter and (2) using an Antelope DA for AES noise isolation OR trying an outboard async USB-to-AES/SPDIF converter (which would require using a computer server). IME, noise isolation pays bigger dividends than improved clocking so I'd try an Antelope DA before an ext word clock.

If you don't suffer from OCD like most of us audiophiles (!) then just enjoy what you have and do nothing but enjoy the music...:-)
More to discover