Audiofun,
I missed this thread because it shifted from the old one. It's fascinating and I'm reading it like the latest issue of Stereophile! I'm eager to hear more about the MSB in terms of how it compares to the Bidat. I'm not surprised by what you say by "tube magic." Another friend of mine who has recently modded bidat says he wishes the bidat had a tube output stage because he previously had a DAC which did and said it had a special quality...even though the Bidat bested it.
I just spent several weeks comparing new digital interconnects from Moray James (he assists John Wright with his mods and John uses Moray's calbe to voice his mods) and I want you to know how amazing Moray's latest cable is when used with the Bidat. Several friends have confirmed by impressions of what an amazing difference this RCA digtial cable makes. Since I've had my Bidat upgraded twice (the most recent in November of '09) I can say that the digital cable has as profound an impact as the actual mods done to the unit. Bass is more realistic and FAR more musical. Microdynamics are improved without the slightest grain or "hi fi" sound. I have also switched to a Shunyata Python CX for the power cord and it has also brought out even more of the Bidat magic. I have no financial interest or relationship with either of these companies. If you're interested in reviewing one of Moray's cables, I can pass his email address on to you. |
Sorry for all the typos in my previous posting...too much coffee. |
I'm particularly eager to hear bout the Playback Design, given the reviews I've read. Have you considered the Berkeley DAC that Robert Harley raved about a while back? I believe it handles hi-rez.
If you haven't heard Shelby Lynne's tribute to Dusty Springfield called "Just a Little Lovin" on Lost Highway records, I recommend it. It was mastered by the legendary audiophile wizard Doug Sax and was recorded on luscious analogue tape. It's great if you like that type of music. |
Thanks. I was only aware of Harley's comments. I know several people who have run the Bidat against Audio Note's top of the line DAC of two years ago and they said the Bidat bested it. FWIW. |
Audiofun,
It was told one of the Audio Note DACS was from England..I'm not sure about the other one. It's too bad the processing power necessary for high rez files is beyond the bidat or its mods. I hope one day that John Wright will come out with his own universal DAC because I believe the price and performance would be quite competitive.
The fact that the Playback Design exhibits no pre or post ringing really has me intrigued. It could be a killer. Have you come to a final verdict on the MSB vs. Bidat? |
Audiofun,
Fascinating. Thanks for the update.
Don't let anyone tell you you're nuts about the input issue. I have had similar issues with placement of digital interconnects in relation to interconnects and power cords (something that Robert Harley himself has written about).I know of one Bidat owner who has to routinely re-set his unit so that the "c-lock" mechanism will properly lock with the transport. He gets "sound" without doing this, but the difference when the "lock" has properly occured is substantial. Another friend of mine once referred to the building and creation of DACS as a "dark art." Based upon my experience, this is true and little things can really make a difference.
I don't know if you've ever placed a serious after market powercord on any of your DACS, but you might be surprised by the effect. Several of us Bidat owners have found Shunyata Helix or CX cords to mate very well with the unit. |
Audiofun,
Unfortunately, my rack and set up won't accommodate "stiffies" but I'm glad you've found a good match. |
Audiofun, if you're going to use the RCA version of the M2, I can't resist putting in another plug in for Moray James digital cable...I'm sure he'd send you one to audition. It beats anything I've tried from Kimber Illuminati to Harmonic Tech and based upon the music for pleasure review of the M2, the cable interface may make a significant difference. I heard an M2 (albeit not with high rez)a few weeks ago and was impressed. Look forward to your review. |
Audiofun,
It sounds like the MSB is an impressive DAC. If I could trouble you to give a final verdict on how it sounds playing back 44.1 material compared to the modded Bidat's performance, I'd appreciate it. I know you've left spinning cd's behind, but I'd like to know whether the MSB beats the Bidat for redbook playback. I can't wait to hear how the Playback Designs unit does.
Thanks for sharing your journey.
Vance |
Glory,
You clearly know your audio. What are these incredible cables that you've found? I'm sure they'll impress everyone on this forum because, obviously, no one who's posted here, me included, would have ever tried any esoteric cables. We're just a bunch of shiftless old farts, happy to play around with digital relics until someone with your insight comes along and sets us all straight. Or maybe it's that my and everyone else's cables are all too expensive. I'm sure you'll know. |
Audiofun,
Not bad for a unit that ended production more than 14 years ago, nes pas? It's a classic hotrod and only gets better with time.
There's one for sale right now; looks like it's in good condition and I can't believe no one's snapped it up yet. |
One man, two bidats...there must be a Chinese proverb about that.. |
Audiofun,
Thanks for the fascinating and detailed update. I had little doubt that the Bidat would have trouble keeping up in the hi rez domain. It just doesn't have the computing power. Not to take anything away from the fine work being done at MSB, but it is amazing that a $2000 DAC manufactured in the mid 90's is keeping up with a brand new $8,000 stat-of-the-art converter when it comes to Redbook. John Wright has figured out a way to really squeeze the very most out of the 44.1 material without losing the music. For those of us with extensive redbook collections, the modded Bidat is a valuable treasure. If Mr. Wright ever figures out a way to take this technology into the hi rez realm he'll have a giant killer for the future. If music distributors ever start offering ALL of their material via hi rez on the web, everything will change. Until then, I'm glad I have a Bidat. |
Audiofun,
Is the MSB unit you have the company's top-of-the-line configuration? Additionally, I'm assuming your most recent post applies to redbook only? |
Tpaxadpom,
I have a Bidat that has gone through two sets of Mods; one in late 2007 and one in December of 2009. Audiofun's unit was done in 2010, shortly after John made a power supply breakthrough. The difference between the first and second mods, for me, was that the unit's soundstage was deepened and the whole presentation was made more "analog" and more "musical," which is saying quite a bit when you consider how musical the Bidat already was. I have heard the results of John's power supply innovation on my Museatex Bitstream, so I plan on getting the same treatment performed on my Bidat. Certainly, the latest mods are a quantum leap ahead of the 2006 mods. |
Glory,
Perhaps I responded to harshly, but I just wanted us to stick to the point of the forum. If you're ever in the St. Louis area, bring your dac over and I'd be happy to let you listen to it compared to mine. Most people who own the fully modded bidat would be eager to show up for a dac shoot out in their respective neighborhoods. Personally, I'm always open to hearing anything that can "best" it at a comparable price. I have no brand loyalty when it comes to the absolute sound. The problem is that many people simply don't want to have their own assumptions about equipment challenged or even questioned. There may well be a better $2000 dac on the market. I simply haven't heard it yet. There are certainly some $5000 dacs that aren't as good because I've heard them in my own home.
One reason I've appreciated this forum is that someone has taken the time to actually LISTEN to gear and compare them...as opposed to the typical "theoretical" discussions in which people talk about what they've "heard" others "say." |
Lush,
Thanks for the fascinating post. Given the 512's $15,000 price tag, I imagine you'll be keeping the bitstream? |
I've recently compared a friend's modified bistream to the Wyred 4 and the bistream was more musical on Redbook. I own a fully modified Bidat and it is better than the bitstream, so logic would dictate that it probably bests the Wyred 4 DAC. This is not to say the Wyred is not excellent. It just doesn't have the bass and sound stage of the Bidat based upon my having heard both, albeit at different times. The comparison with the bitstream was a bit closer. The advantage of the Wyred is that it handles hi Rez (if you can find any material worth listening to in that format LOL) |
Mike1000,
I think it's a very fine DAC for the money and certainly better than some out there that are going for a lot more. I never heard how it handled hi rez, though. Based upon what I've heard, I doubt there are many (any?) sub $5,000 players, DACS or combos that soundly beat the Bidat on Redbook. |
Audiofun,
Great to hear an update! Glad you're happy with the MSB.
I have to put in my two cents about a few things. I've never used the Bridge, but I have extensive experience with the Bidat (sold mine a few months back) and the PW DAC and PW transport. When used with a Harmonic Tech HDMI cable, the PW DAC and PW transport SMOKE the Bidat. With all due respect and in the spirit of lively debate, I wouldn't use a glass toslink to drive a radioshack cd player through a $200 DAC; every good DAC system requires the right digital connection and the PW DAC works best with the HT Audio only HDMI or CAT 6, something many users will attest to. BTW, I just heard the latest Bel Canto DAC hooked up to an Computer source via toslink and it was NOT pretty. So, I'm not prepared to say I know what that unit sounds like. The Bel Canto is best with a SPDIF or CAT 6 connection, according to those I've spoken with.
You've found just the right wire and connections for your MSB. Comparisons with other DACS will only be fair if those units are similarly set up with wire that serves those units best. The MSB may well be a superior DAC, but I just wanted to voice a caution to those who haven't made the comparisons themselves or who may plan to. For example, wouldn't predict my old beloved BIDAT would place well if it were hooked up to a lousy power word and an ordinary Canare digital cable any more than i would put crappy tires on a Porshe and expect it to go the distance.
Again, I'm not commenting on whether the MSB is better than the PW DAC 'cause I haven't heard that particular MSB, but I do know how a super modded Bidat sounds compared to a properly set up PW DAC. The PW DAC is just as musical, provides more detail, has a more analog top end, deeper bass and a much wider soundstage. At least that's what my ears tell me. ;-)
Once thing I *do* agree with you about with respect to the PW DAC is that the volume control is not optimal, but neither was the Bidat's and neither is any DAC volume fix I've ever heard. I ALWAYS prefer a good tube preamp with my musical meal. |
Touche' my friend. However I was referring to your comparison of the PW DAC and the BIDAT. I guess mileage does vary. |
You wrote in your previous post:
"I had a PS Audio Dac about a month ago with the bridge installed. I did a head to head comparison with the MSB on RB and hiRes. I used glass tos and the Bridge."
I think you can understand my confusion. No mention of CAT 6. I'm sure it was an oversight. |
I completely respect audiofun's observations and enjoy the thread as well. One final comment on the HDMI cable as it relates to the PW DAC. Many people are not satisfied with PS Audio's HDMI cable because, in their opinion, it over emphasizes the DACs upper register,a making it sound somewhat harsh. I agree and find the Harmonic Twch Audio Only HDMI to be the perfect match. Several leading dealers recommend it as well. |
I read the Daggogo review of the Emperical Audio Overddrive and it sounds like a contender. I was struck by one comment the reviewer made when comparing it with several very pricey DACs, including dCS's latest. He said the differences were "subtle" and "subjective". I keep hearing this from reviewers I trust about the differences between the top 10 or 15 DACs out there, MSB and the PW DAC among the list. Anthony Cordesman wrote recently that when he listened to the latest from Boulder, Meridian, and PS Audio that each one had it's strengths. While both of these reviewers had their preferences, they were quick to caution readers that the differences were NOT dramatic once you enter this pantheon of high end DACS. Some would argue that the major differences have more to do with the analog stages than the chip sets. I bow to greater minds on that subject but I suspect we may be reaching the outer envelope of what is currently understood when it comes to digital sound reproduction...until another "Ed Meitner" comes along....not that the living one is resting on his laurels. ;-) the trickle down is resulting in some mighty fine cheaper DACS. Good news for everyone. |
Peter Breuninger of The Absolute Sound just give his 2011 Golden Ear Award to PS audio's Transport/DAC/ Bridge combines Golden Ear Award.
Here's the text:
Here's the text:
"This combination may not equal a handful of
units that cost far, far more (like the Meinter
XDS1 or the Meridian 808 Signature), but it
comes so close that differences are as much
matters of taste as of the finest nuances of
sonic detail. The sound is extraordinarily live
and detailed, and capable of getting the best
bass response out of digital. The PS gear is
detailed without any without hardness or edge
that is not on the recording. A must-hear
unit if you are trying to scale the heights of
digitalparticularly if you are not operating
on an unlimited budget. It is in the process
of becoming a full music server with its own
music-management system, and it can handle
even the highest sampling and frequency rates
with easemaking it one of the few buys with
full growth potential for the future. (Review
pending)" |
I apologize for the garbled post. I swear my iPad keyboard as a mind of it's own. ;-0 |
The Absolute Sound Golden Ear was awarded by Anthony Cordesman and not Peter Breuninger as previously posted. There was some confusion because of pre-publication posting of the information. |
