Heymikey: It sounds like you have a nice setup. I met Steve and started dealing with him over 10 years ago when he started GNSC. I was a beta tester for one of his first in-house products...a isolation transformer house in a very attractive sort of on end standing housing. He does great work.
I have wanted to try one of the Wireworld Supernova glass TOS cables, perhaps I will order one. |
Thanks, I have a feeling your set-up might put mine to shame.
I got my Wireworld Supernova 6 at GCAudio.com (Galen Carol Audio), they can also be had from The Cable Co. It sounds surprisingly good.
Yep, Steve at GNSC is a good guy, I've had the opportunity to deal with him a few times in the past. |
Ok, some thoughts on the Sim Audio 300D... NICE!!! It is acquitting itself very nicely against the DCC-1 at this point. The presentation is not as languid as the Dcc-1 and it doesn't quite have the weight, but I could imagine this dac being teamed with a BAT or Joule pre (had a REX and a Joule Electra LA100 formerly) and sounding awfully awfully good.
I say that because with no tubes at all it is not sterile at all, it is musical and I think that in 1997 or '98 this kind of sound would have been upwards or 5-7k. The minor faults I find are purely by omission and not commission.
Another thing, it has made a believer out of me that USB may be a viable format. Every other USB dac I've heard failed to impress (I'm being nice) though admittedly I have not heard a great deal of USB dacs. This sounds really nice with a cheap over the counter (Best Buy) USB that I picked up tonight on the way home. So... the cable is nothing special, not burned in and it still sounds very good.
I actually found myself wondering what system I might be able to squeeze this unit into, but I have the Bidat for the bedroom, the DCC-1 for the office and the main 2 systems will probably get the AMR/Playback or MSB... GOTTA stop somewhere ;)
I am going to say that anyone who is looking for really good sound for under 2k should at least audition this unit, you may be surprised as I was.... Honestly I didn't really want to be bothered with bringing this one home, as I had so much on my plate what with taking notes on the others and connecting disconnecting...etc.., we've all been there.
More tomorrow, the MSB came, but I wasn't here so I will pick it up tomorrow from the P.O. :(
Regards |
Thanks Heymiker, I may call the guys at GCAudio.com. |
I picked the MSB up this morning. It is charging and I will give it a whirl this evening. Stay tuned... "same bat channel same bat time" .... Ok, if you not in your mid 30's or up that probably means nothing to you LOL!!! |
I just asked the new buyer of my Weiss Dac2 what his initial impression was.
His email reply was 2 words.
" It sucks "
I really was hoping that he would have had better luck with it than I did.
I hope Daniel Weiss gets wind of this. |
Mattzack2: Well.....lets just say I can't refute your' buyers impression. So far EVERYONE that has heard it on my end of the world has had a really really adverse reaction to it. The MSB unit has been burning in for about a day now and it is good. It is (i think) better than the DCC-1 but it cant compete with the Bidat.
I do however like the unit very much and I am now the new owner, it will take up residence in my bedroom, with the DCC-1 going to the office and the Bidat going to the living room.
I think at this point Im going to try to hear a Music Playback Design gear and then I am finished. I know I LOVED the sound of the AMR 77, but I need to hear the MPD-5.
The MSB is hard to categorize..., but it is detailed like nothing I have heard before. At 3 mintues (3 min exactly) on Renee Maries soung Bolero/Suzanne there is something going on deep deep deep deep in the background I never heard before and the MSB brought it to the forefront (thought still very very hidden).
More to come as I continue listening...
PS>Again, though I am not purchasing the unit the Moon 300D... really really good! |
Two things, I mutilated the word 'song' in the earlier post...to early to be typing I guess :) Second, I just fired up the MSB today and I have to say I now know what I heard that caused me to purchase it. Seldom have I heard a product change its strips so much in a 24 hour period.., guess my suspicions about the unit are proven... It is very very very good!!!
I still think the presentation is different from the Bidat and AMR which are very very similar to each other. |
Audiofun - my reply of many days ago was misconstrued, in no way questioning your motives/experiences. Good on you (and lucky you) to be actually able to try things side by side. I just noticed some "Best" comments by others...which always make me smile (and roll my eyes). ie those that say 997 is the best without having driven a Cayman or other mid-engined sports car (Ferrari) ;). If you've tried them all, then you certainly have an informed opinion. RS4 for me these days, with kids and all.
My hard drive has crashed, an external DAC/mini is starting frustrate me...I may follow your lead, but really to just move to a one-box solution (idiot proof). |
Hatari: No harm no foul:) Sorry about your' HDD that's a bad feeling. The RS4 is a HOT car!!! |
Audiofun,
I missed this thread because it shifted from the old one. It's fascinating and I'm reading it like the latest issue of Stereophile! I'm eager to hear more about the MSB in terms of how it compares to the Bidat. I'm not surprised by what you say by "tube magic." Another friend of mine who has recently modded bidat says he wishes the bidat had a tube output stage because he previously had a DAC which did and said it had a special quality...even though the Bidat bested it.
I just spent several weeks comparing new digital interconnects from Moray James (he assists John Wright with his mods and John uses Moray's calbe to voice his mods) and I want you to know how amazing Moray's latest cable is when used with the Bidat. Several friends have confirmed by impressions of what an amazing difference this RCA digtial cable makes. Since I've had my Bidat upgraded twice (the most recent in November of '09) I can say that the digital cable has as profound an impact as the actual mods done to the unit. Bass is more realistic and FAR more musical. Microdynamics are improved without the slightest grain or "hi fi" sound. I have also switched to a Shunyata Python CX for the power cord and it has also brought out even more of the Bidat magic. I have no financial interest or relationship with either of these companies. If you're interested in reviewing one of Moray's cables, I can pass his email address on to you. |
Sorry for all the typos in my previous posting...too much coffee. |
I'm glad you are enjoying the thread :) I am familiar with Morray James. I bought a pair of his interconnects circa 1999 when he was just getting started and yes they are good. I have not had any of his newer offerings since that time. I might try some of his interconnects.
The MSB is still cooking. I like it...but I want to reserve final judgement for a while (yes I did purchase the unit). Sometimes I think I love it and others I am indifferent or put-off. I have owned other gear that did that good/bad thing while breaking in, but this thing is taking it to another level.
I still have to get the Play Back Design in to listen to. I think I may end up foregoing the PS Audio, ONLY because I am not at all interested in spinning discs and it is designed to work optimally with the PWT, so... I see no point.
I do love the 24/96 through the MSB, I downloaded an album (is it still really an album :) from HDTracks by an artist named Christy Baron. I just kinda happened upon her and I really like her quite a bit. I used to listen to Patty Barber but honestly I got tired of listening to her singing to women...kinda messed up the flow of the music for me so I have been looking for other interesting female vocalists. Suggestions are welcome.
I will follow up with other observations hopefully soon. |
I'm particularly eager to hear bout the Playback Design, given the reviews I've read. Have you considered the Berkeley DAC that Robert Harley raved about a while back? I believe it handles hi-rez.
If you haven't heard Shelby Lynne's tribute to Dusty Springfield called "Just a Little Lovin" on Lost Highway records, I recommend it. It was mastered by the legendary audiophile wizard Doug Sax and was recorded on luscious analogue tape. It's great if you like that type of music. |
Audiofun
Can you post a more detailed explanation of your thoughts on the Moon DAC? I'm looking for a DAC to use for a computer based audio playback system and I am not familiar with any of this Canadian company's products. Thanks. |
Vhiner: I have not considered the Berkley, based on friends whose ears I trust implicitly, I was told that if I didn't like the Weiss the Berkly would not do it for me. If I get a chance to audition the Berkley I will of course report on my thoughts, but I have no desire to seek it out. |
Glrtrgi:
The moon, is a nice sounding unit. It is relatively musical and presents the spectra of music top to bottom very well. I do think it sounds a bit 'lite' in the mid range (vocal regions), but not sterile or steely. I would suggest you use a warm sounding pair of interconnects with the unit. It has a sound I characterize with dacs in it's price range. I have noticed you don't really seem to get the weight in the sound (at least to my ears) until you cross the 4.5k to 5k barrier dollar amount.... of course mileage may vary and there are many great dacs out there. I personally would like to try one of the Audio Note kits.
As I have stated before and stand by it 100% the Moon bested the Weiss Minerva, so for $1600.00 retail (I think that is the MSRP) you will have a very very good sounding unit that with some massaging (i.e. correct interconnects, sympathetic preamp) will make beautiful music. |
Thanks. I was only aware of Harley's comments. I know several people who have run the Bidat against Audio Note's top of the line DAC of two years ago and they said the Bidat bested it. FWIW. |
Thanks so much for the info concerning the Audio Note Dac. Which Audio Note? AN-Japan or AN-England? |
Here's a good post from an owner of an AN (UK) DAC5, who sold it after trying a Bidat.
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=digital&n=64718 |
Thanks Oxia, that made for good reading. I think I will forego the venture into the world of AN after reading that and Vhiners' posts :) |
Audiofun,
It was told one of the Audio Note DACS was from England..I'm not sure about the other one. It's too bad the processing power necessary for high rez files is beyond the bidat or its mods. I hope one day that John Wright will come out with his own universal DAC because I believe the price and performance would be quite competitive.
The fact that the Playback Design exhibits no pre or post ringing really has me intrigued. It could be a killer. Have you come to a final verdict on the MSB vs. Bidat? |
I am getting close on the MSB, here is the what I am finding. The unit is very refined and I know I keep saying that like a broken record. The reason is that I am not happy with the amount of treble energy. I find that the vocal region seems to be (almost spotlighted) more prominent than the energy in the treble region. I remembered reading something like this and so I googled MSB review Platinum and found the old Stereophile review of the original Platinum dac which I believe contained the 1st generation of there in-house designed R2R ladder dac. Now granted the power dac has the 2nd Generation dacs and a much more powerful digital filter, but man... the reviewer described exactly what I was hearing in the treble. It is not bad by any stretch of the imagination so don't get me wrong. It is simply a presentation I am not comfortable with.
To be fair I spoke to one of there engineers and Vince (a great guy by the way) who suggested I order new batteries. I did so ,but they won't arrive until Wed or Thursday of this week (which is why this review was delayed and even now I am doing so with pause). I did open the unit last evening and measured the voltages on all 5 batteries (without the unit being connected to the charger which could give a false read) and they were all at spec, so next I made sure all the connection were tight and that the voltage at the terminals was the voltage sent to the circuit board. All was good. I did note that the treble seemed to improve after placing the unit back in the system.
Now comes the other bad thing... :) I had been listening to the DCC-1 (Museatex) on input 3 only. Well whilst comparing the MSB and DCC-1 I decided to try it on input 1 (1 and 3 are both TOS). OK....I can hear it coming, but I am telling you there was a huge difference. The number 1 input was much fuller than the number 3 input. I tired number 2 but it sounded identical to 3. So perhaps the receiver for the num 1 input is further from the mains or some EMI/RFI interference...I don't know but I know what my ears told me.
So, now the one advantage that I thought the MSB had over the DCC-1 (fuller, weightier more refined) is nill. I am now listening to the DCC-1.
I will of course reserve final judgment until the new batteries arrive and are installed and (thought they come pre-charged) have charged for at least an hour to make sure they are topped-off.
One other thing, one of the guys at MSB (when I described what I was hearing) stated that it was something in my system. When I informed him that I owned 5 dacs and had many others in for eval with ONLY the MSB displaying this behavior that argument went out the window.
I am having fun though :) |
Audiofun,
Fascinating. Thanks for the update.
Don't let anyone tell you you're nuts about the input issue. I have had similar issues with placement of digital interconnects in relation to interconnects and power cords (something that Robert Harley himself has written about).I know of one Bidat owner who has to routinely re-set his unit so that the "c-lock" mechanism will properly lock with the transport. He gets "sound" without doing this, but the difference when the "lock" has properly occured is substantial. Another friend of mine once referred to the building and creation of DACS as a "dark art." Based upon my experience, this is true and little things can really make a difference.
I don't know if you've ever placed a serious after market powercord on any of your DACS, but you might be surprised by the effect. Several of us Bidat owners have found Shunyata Helix or CX cords to mate very well with the unit. |
Vhiner: The finest power cord I have ever used (on everything: pre/amp/Bidat...etc) is the FIM Gold (the original, I know nothing about the sound of the CRL but I was told by one of the original owners of FIM that when it changed over the CRL the formula for the cables changed a bit. The FIM cords, though stiff and a ROYAL PAIN!!! to work with are the REAL DEAL and make a massive difference :) |
Audiofun,
Unfortunately, my rack and set up won't accommodate "stiffies" but I'm glad you've found a good match. |
OK, FINALLY... my M2Tech HiFace is going to be delivered today. I can't wait to try it out and report its capabilities. I will keep you posted. |
Audiofun, if you're going to use the RCA version of the M2, I can't resist putting in another plug in for Moray James digital cable...I'm sure he'd send you one to audition. It beats anything I've tried from Kimber Illuminati to Harmonic Tech and based upon the music for pleasure review of the M2, the cable interface may make a significant difference. I heard an M2 (albeit not with high rez)a few weeks ago and was impressed. Look forward to your review. |
Well, I have the Hiface (BNC version) and while I hear great promise, mine unfortunately has the clicking/popping issue which I thought this latest batch was supposed to address. I do hear a great deal of promise with the unit, I have contacted Mike Garner at Tweek Geek and he is all over it, getting back to me last evening after 10pm EST within 15 minutes of my email....NOW THAT'S SERVICE!!!
I will keep you all posted. |
Ok, it appears that for some reason unbeknown-st to the makers of the Hiface (their words)some macs still have the clicking and popping problem. They are working on a new driver.
New things, I have finally given up on Amarra, it simply destroys very fine detail that iTunes easily renders. I have lived with it for about 6 months now and I have decided to move on. I did love the fact that it could switch my midi sampling rate on the fly and bypass iTunes SRC mechanism...but the sound trumps those features... BUT!!!!
I found Pure Vinyl and it seems nearly perfect. It bypasses iTunes and switches the midi settings, is only $229.00 has a 64 bit core, allows one to record and has built in 64 bit RIAA processing for archiving vinyl. Finally, it sounds better than Amarra to these ears. The low level information I mentioned earlier (and at the very start of this thread when speaking of my Amarra trials) is present once again.
It can also be used as a memory player, which I think sounds best and sort of negates the need for expensive SSD drives. It will buffer your music (in my case, from my 1TB NAS over wifi) to the internal memory of my mac mini and then play it from there. Sometimes there is a slight delay, but in Hybrid mode, it launches another thread and starts to preload the next track so it is nearly seamless.
The ONKY thing I have found that Amarra does better is related to 'remote' on my iPhone/touch. The realtime file playback timing information is veryv ery smooth when using iTunes alone or when using iTunes with Amarra. Not so with Pure Vinyl, first you have to turn it on in the preferences and then it is jumpy and can make the music skip a bit. They need to address this, but it is a minor annoyance and I leave it off for now.
So there you have it, between the Hiface and Pure Vinyl (about $410.00 (Pure Vinyl is slated to go up to $299.00 with the next full release) I can play ALL my files all the way up to 24/192khz... The Hiface will pass 32 bit information should you have any.
Oh, one last thing I love about the Pure Vinyl, it reads your midi setting upon start up and uses that number to base up sampling on (should you turn upsampling on, I prefer it off but it is very good, just not as good as no upsampling to me) for instance: say most of your' files are 44.1 I think it would be smart to pick 88.2khz as the midi setting. Now with upsampling on, PV will upsample everything below 88.2 (which will probably be mostly 44.1 stuff) to 88.2 (even order math) anything 88.2 or greater will be player as NATIVE S.R. with no upsampling involved. So if you are a fan of upsampling this is the golden ticket...or egg ... or goose or whatever it is thats golden and good :) |
Clarification: I wrote:
Sometimes there is a slight delay, (concerning the use of Pure Vinyl in memory mode)....
I was referring to the time between the start of the next song, NOT during song playback which would be totally unacceptable :) |
Further use of the HiFace unit has proven insightful. While I think they have a potentially great product on their hands and I am glad it exists, it is simply not ready for the mac as yet...at least in MY case. While the popping has stopped for some reason...I have no idea, it is still not able to pass a bit perfect stream which may be why the built-in optical with a glass Tos still outperforms it :(
The Hiface sounds very very good until you goto the glass/Tos then you realize it is not as full sounding and ambient room information is not coming through with the same presence: this it where it appears to be faltering.
Now I realize I have to use two differing types of digital cable, but I can tell you that I have done comparative tests (exhaustive tests) between my FIM coax digital and my glass Tos using my standby shop queen modified Cambridge D500SE as a transport and the cables sound nearly indistinguishable.
For now I will let Pure Vinyl downsample my HRx recordings to 88.2 and use the built in output. I will continue to play with the Hiface but they really need to address the lack of its ability to pass a bit perfect signal in the mac world. |
Pure Music is less expensive at $100. |
Thanks for the heads up. I was looking into the various versions just yesterday. If you are not archiving vinyl this would be the better (read) cheaper way to go. :) |
When do you expect to have the playback design? |
I wont have it before the end of April. I can say that my MSB Power DAC is sounding better, it may be that this thing just needs MEGA breakin... |
I followed your thread just today and seem to understand you got rid of ordinary CD playback? I have used a Wadia 781 with its usb input to great satisfaction, and am considering now to go all the way to the series 9: Have you ever considered those sounds, and what was your verdict?
thanks. |
Yes, I have abandoned regular CD playback altogether. I have never heard either the 781 or the 9 series. I did have a 581 (NOT the SE) which I could not stand. My uncle had the 781 and the 931/922 system. He really liked the 9 series, I am not positive concerning his views on the 781.
I used to own the Wadia 7 from way back in the day...one of my favorite transports of all time...especially with a Bidat...Now that was some great Redbook playback :))
I can't be of much help to you here because I haven't heard the systems you mentioned with my own ears.
I can honestly say I have never heard USB go strait into a dac and liked it. Now with a usb to spdif converter like the HiFace... it is much much improved.
My PowerDac (MSB) has the USB option and the Toslink (real glass cable) beats it like a red-headed step child...
red-headed step child is a fictional character and any resemblance to a real person is purely coincidental (my attempt to be funny...I need coffee :) |
Many audiophiles have reported similar findings - i.e. DAC's with USB interfaces not sounding as good as the AES or SPDIF interface. Personally, I think this is likely just poor implementation of the USB interface versus an inherent deficiency in the format itself. I don't find this surprising in that the USB and Firewire interface technology is new to the veteran DAC designers. Further, many of the USB interfaces in use are not async which means they use the computer clock for clocking the data transfer which causes high jitter. Therefore, async USB to SPDIF converters like the Legato, HiFace, et. al. will likely be the way to go for many of us.
I have a Berkeley Alpha DAC and recently tried a Legato async USB to SPDIF to compare to my Lynx AES16 interface. The Legato was better in every aspect of performance.
Bottom line, I think as designers master the art of building in async USB interfaces to their DAC's AES/SPDIF will fall by the wayside.
JMO |
Earflappin: Thanks for your post, I find what you have written interesting. It could simply be poor implementation of the USB/DAC interface. My MSB PowerDac for instance stores the data into an internal ram buffer and then clocks it out using its own precision 2.5ppm clock completely discarding the clock signal from the computer. BUT..., it still sounds inferior to the coax or Tos SPDIF signal.
Perhaps one day direct USB will get it done, but I haven't experienced it as yet.
I love my HiFace, as it breaks in it has become EXTREMELY good. Interesting what you said concerning the Lynx card as I have no experience with that device (I have a mac mini) but I was thinking of getting a Power Mac for the living room and the Lynx crossed my mind. I will say however that the HiFace has been so effective that I started giving that plan a second thought, I think I am just going to purchase another Mac Mini and a second HiFace... that device is awesome. |
Hiface new Mac drivers are bitperfect and without pop/clicks...
@Earflapp: Hiface is not asynch!
Nikos |
Audiofun,
Have you tried different digital filters for your Power DAC? There are six downloadable filters from www.msbtech.com/support/supportHome.php to play around with. It can be a pita to upload the filters, but I think it is worth a try. |
Rei_iii I have all the filters in a playlist in itunes called "Custom Filters" and I can change them at will. I have worked with all of them extensively :) At the end of the day, I think it sound overall best with the default filter (probably why they made it the default :). |
Vetnik: Which driver verison? Because I have dealt directly with Marcos via emials and they acknowledge that the driver is NOT bit perfect, it drops the LSB. Now the new beta driver for Snow Leopard according to Marcos has solved that problem, also they are working on the new driver for 10.5.X to solve the acknowledged pop/clicks.
No need to shout, I don't think I chimed in on whether or not the Hiface is async or not. My MSB renders that moot as it discards the incoming clock, buffers the data and uses its own clocking scheme to the dac, much like any good memory player.
Either way asynch or not, it sounds FAR better than any usb to dac direct connection I have tried...dropped bit and all, so I can only imagine what it will sound like with the corrected driver. |
Vetnik: My bad I see you were directing you intensity at Earflapp. |
Audiofun no problem!
Yes, the snow leopard drivers are bit perfect.
I am glad that you are happy with the hiface.
I will try it with my nonos dac and I will post.
I would also like to try a firewire to spdif like the new tc twin impact that has the jetpll like the weiss int202.
My dac is very jitter sensitive.
thanks for the feedback
Nikos |
This from the Tweek Geek site. I started thinking about the fact that the HiFace has 2 precision clocks on board (2.5ppm) and the slight delay in the interface of iTunes when using the HiFace led me to believe it is in fact Async. This is what I found:
28) Does the hiFace work in asynchronous mode?
Sure, the transfer of data over the USB bus happens in a totally asynchronous fashion, with respect to their retransmission to the DAC, in short packets which use all the available bus bandwidth. Actually, hiFace is master in the transmission from PC to interface. As it uses its low jitter oscillators to time the S/PDIF transmission, line jitter is totally uncorrelated to data transmission from PC to interface. |
Guys, in my experience Firewire is the best connection. I do wish read until right ripping were the rule. Despite the bit perfect claims for various drivers, I am suspicious of such claims given the time ripping takes on my Mac Powerbook. All that notwithstanding, I love the sound I am getting with the Mac/Amara/Firewire/Miinerva and have never heard its equal. |
I have to apologize,
repost from tweekgeeks hiface faq
28) Does the hiFace work in asynchronous mode?
Sure, the transfer of data over the USB bus happens in a totally asynchronous fashion, with respect to their retransmission to the DAC, in short packets which use all the available bus bandwidth. Actually, hiFace is master in the transmission from PC to interface. As it uses its low jitter oscillators to time the S/PDIF transmission, line jitter is totally uncorrelated to data transmission from PC to interface |
Apology accepted.... :-) BTW, John Keny (jkeny alias) offers a mod for 50 euros for the HiFace where he uses two outboard lithium batteries to provide the 3.3V to the clock and output stages versus using the stock regs which convert from the incoming 5V from the USB port. I'm getting one. I have to believe it offers a very nice sonic improvement over the already good stock version.
Audiofun - do you have the BNC HiFace or RCA? If your DAC has a BNC input and you are using the RCA HiFace you will be leaving some performance on the table. Check out Mike Galusha's review on Enjoy the Music. He tested both versions. |
