Beyond Ayre Pass and Rowland

Inna,
The bass  quality of  an amplifier is so tied to the speaker that you really have to discuss them in tandem as this link is that strongly intertwined. In the example I cited the Rockport Altair is 4 ohms nominal load and drops to roughly 2 ohms in the bass region. I will concede the Krell FPB has excellent control of the Altair woofer and has superior weight, impact and scale. 

However the Absolare Passion is quite accomplished in the bass (by no means is it shabby) with very good texture, articulation and convincing natural bloom and air. So IMO it's a matter of "good" vs exceptionally executed bass performance. I could and would easily live with the Absolare Passion-Altair bass,why? For me it's good enough bass and in virtually every other sonic parameter a sublime amplifier in areas that matter most for my satisfaction. 

Choices and compromises we all must decide individually. If I were to own the Absolare I'd just find a speaker with a less demanding load and thus more compatible with this brilliant amplifier. When I heard the Ypsilon amplifier it was driving Tidal speakers and there were no bass issues that I detected.  Again,  appropriate speaker match. 
Charles, 

Ricred1,
There are many excellent tube preamps in the price range you stated. Here’s a short list. Three I’ve heard and know well.
Atma-Sphere MP-1 MK III
Coincident Statement Line Stage
VAC Signature MK II

Three based on trusted word of mouth.
Shindo Vosne-Romanee
Shindo Masseto 
Melody Pure Black 101d
Charles,

Charles, thank you, I understand now. Both Absolare and Ypsilon seem to be superb performers and with perfect speaker match maybe even more than that.

My friend has convinced me to try the Aavik U300 integrated amp in lieu of changing preamps. He said it’s very close to Absolare. Has anyone ever heard the Aavik?

Ricred1 8-20-2016 10:19 am edt
Charles,
In addition, I really respect the way you respond to threads.

An emphatic +1!

Richard (Ricred1), I have no knowledge of the sonics of the Aavik U300, but personally I would be concerned that its lack of balanced inputs and the low 10K input impedance of its line-level analog inputs would both significantly constrain future choices of source components. And for that matter I would wonder if the unbalanced outputs of your Aeris DAC, which you would have to use with the Aavik, would sound as good as its transformer coupled balanced outputs that I presume you are presently using.

In any event, good luck as you proceed.

Best regards,
-- Al

Ricred1,
At Axpona (Chicago) this spring I heard the Aavik driving Raidho speakers. I was with 2 friends and we felt that the sound of that room/system was decent but nothing particularly special (it wasn’t bad sounding to be clear). It wasn’t a prolonged listening session (like some other rooms we visited). So I am in no position to offer any meaningful impressions.

It could possibly be a terrific integrated class D amplifier under proper setup  conditions. It has a built-in DAC and Phono stage and 600 watts into 4 ohms. It could be very worthwhile to pursue and audition. Price wise it competes with integrated amps from Absolare, Vitus, ,Dartzeel and Ypsilon. Good luck to you.

Thanks Al as you know the feeling is mutual.
Charles,

Thanks. I'm not going to purchase, just trying to find out if it's worth listening to. Charles you and Al bring up very good points. 
Yes, I'm using all balanced cables. 

Richard,
If the opportunity arises to hear/audition  the Aavik I say go for it!
It'd be much fun to compare it to your Rowland fronted with a high quality tube preamplifier. 
Charles,  

Charles, 
If presented the opportunity,  without the need to purchase I will. I listen to my system yesterday for several hours and still really love it. No, it's not at the same level as the Absolare, but close enough considering the cost difference. I'm still going to try a tube preamp. I'm curious to hear if adding a tube preamp will provide a little sliver of the Absolare magic  

Hello Richard,
Tube preamp idea is a good move. You may or may not prefer it but it’s worth the effort to listen to one in your system. You have the right attitude. Keep in mine that amongst tube preamps each will sound different from oneanother. Here’s what I mean,  CJ, ARC,VAC or Atma-Sphere(all are well respected) for an example have their own distinct sound character. So many variables in High End audio= fun and discovery.
Charles,

Which one of those do you like most, Charles?

Charles,
It's just a matter of what works best in my system, based on my priorities. I plan on listening to an Audio Research Ref 6 within the next few weeks. Another guy suggested that I listen to a Dartzeel preamp.

Hi Richard, 
Yes system synergies will be the determining factor. I find it virtually impossible to say that one is clearly superior to the other. The ARC REF 6 could be the perfect fit in one system and yet be outdone by the CJ GAT in another setting. I’ve heard the VAC Signature MK II and the Atma-Sphere MP I MK III with my SET 300b mono blocks (my amplifier was placed in two different systems that used these preamplifiers). Both were excellent in my opinion.

Of course the challenge is getting the opportunity to hear the various contenders in the same system, easier said than done. Richard I truly believe that any of the four I listed along with the Coincident Line Stage would mate fabulously with your Jeff Rowland amplifier. Yet each one would reveal its own unique sonic character.
Charles,

I use a high quality tube preamp infront of my Boulder 2060 stereo amp. I have the Cary slp05... I like the combo. Plus I get to play with tube rolling

this is a very nice thread, full of wise audio enthusiasts and without the craps. I haven't heard all amps stated, and as someone here said, i would never say "absolute best there is" but "my preference", and i would add "maybe absolute best i have heard" as i cannot honestly state on what i haven't heard!! What i know for sure, is that sometime going to hyper priced stuff can be very disappointing, as quality/price ratio falls dramatically, and is thus far from fulfilling expectations. I hold from a sound engineer that so called high end gear go for over 100% profit margins! I have no whatsoever doubts about that, as these manufacturers build on their prospective client's passion and irrationality that go with it, as maybe any passion can be irrational, except that even ultra high end gear can cost twice a Ferrari without having one tenth of comparable technology cost in it, and such audio gear will sell for half price after a few years, while a crazy investment in a Rembrandt will never be lost, unless destroyed by fire or whatever. So....!!! Yes, we are real fools and the audio manufacturers know that for sure, and so do their fellow reviewers. Most of us here have that sound virus, and i try to keep that in mind, while i am happy to keep that virus too, as having a passion is having a more interesting life, i believe. If i want and can let go of my money in audio gear, i just do it, but i still try to remain both very cautious and open, and ultimately avoid what's worse for us; deception in our investment's sound.  I tend to go the tubes' way, it has less power for sure, but to me life's emotions and vibrations are in the tubes, in general. I probably have not experienced enough solid state, and i guess that would be ClassA with zero or very little feedback designs most of the time. Tube wise, the Wavacs are close to perfect and magical tools. Japanese hand built, with best available components and the sound spirit they are famous for (it is the search for "the absolute" Japanese spirit which brought back tube gear to the world, which ears had been corrupted and put to sleep with marketing of cheap electronics, ironically Japanese too!!) but you don't have to go their top of the line to get exquisite sound, unless the power factor is vital to you, but then you must be rich. All tube stuff mentioned here are undoubtedly among the best there is, but i would add in line with the cost factor i mentioned above, much less costlier gear: Coincident 300B Frankenstein MkII. These paired with their Coincident preamp, a good source and well matched efficient speakers, give a sound matched only by well over 100K gear. If you add the great but not cheap Takatsuki 300B tube to them, you may just touch heaven. I have experienced those for long time now in my secondary system, and i actually continue to switch it on and be stirred to tears for years on, in complete amazement, each time. Just as close to being as good as my main system, which costs 25 times more, for 5% better sound!!! It is just smaller scale, but with all the refinement that only go with smaller stuff, and we are only playing music at home, not at a concert, are we??
All other SS gear mentioned, Gryphon, Pass, Vitus etc, remain the best, individually very highly recommendable, but varies as per the audio setup in which they play. It is as simple as that to me. In the end, i doubt anyone can go wrong with any of these. Can anyone really and reasonably say which is best? Many a system, from cheap to ultra, can be made to sound "best". Match it, place it, cable it, tweak it, burn it, rethink it, redo it all over again, give time and a good dose of audio education and knowledge to it, and get rewarded with heaven's trumpets.

Hello hddg,
When I mentioned that I heard the VAC and Atma-Sphere preamplifiers with my 300b amplifier I was referring to the Coincident Frankenstein MK II SET.  😊
Charles, 

Hddg, I agree with you except with what you called 5%. At this level I would only be interested in 100%. 95% or 50% are the same, that's they are not 100%. It is either yes or no.

Hello Larryi,
I have not had the opportunity to hear the Berning 211/845 amplifier.  I suspect that it is quite good sounding. I'm biased towards low-moderate  power tube amplifiers but I have heard very fine sounding higher powered SS amplifiers in certain systems.  The big distinction I hear is that usually  good quality tube amplifiers are superior in the realm of tone and  tactile presence which is important to me. Having said that,  my friend's 600 watt Krell driving Rockport Altair speakers does provide exceptional performer presence. 
Charles, 

Oranfoster, I can relate.  I have been enjoying my Accuphase E-470 for several months now.  It was actually used by my dealer to power the new Paradigm speakers just released last month.  The regional Paradigm rep was floored with how well the Accuphase performed.

I'm off the merry-go- round when it comes to amps.

greginnh,
    I just installed both modules, the DAC and the AD-30 phono module. My usual DAC is a Modwright Oppo105D, it's been fun to compare the two. Both are phenomenal, but different. It's a little redundant, but now listening to streaming from the SONOS is more straightforward for my wife (no need to turn on the Modwright power supply, AND the T.V. to navigate to the right inout) . Any way, the AD-30 is crazy good. I've been struggling to find a phono stage that I'm really happy with and have tried several. The Accuphase AD-30 is supremely quiet, lively, detailed. Now my stereo is both better than ever and simpler too. 

Since we are discussing what might be among the very best amps, has anyone heard the Engstrom Lars tube amp?  That beast is WAY too big and EXPENSIVE for me to ever consider, but, I do wonder how it sounds.  I have never seen it myself.  Personally, I like at least the idea of all out assaults on making a great 20 watt amp.

Hi Larryi,
I have not heard these Swedish amplifiers. A friend of mine heard the original version of them at their debut during CES 2009. He said they were èxtraordinarily transparent and utterly natural. He was very impressed with their presentation.

Another curiosity generating all out assault 300b amplifier is is the Swiss made  Da Vinci Preziosa.
Charles,

@tom_hankins What qualities of Audionet did  you like? In addition, what SS brands have compared it to?

High resolultion with the best SS amps I've heard. Think Soulution.  Deep, dense, textured images like the Tenor and BAT, Hybred/tube amps. Does space and air really well too. I had never heard any of there products, listened to 3 different systems that were all Audionet and YG Acoustics.  Bought the stereo amp, one week later traded up to the monos.  They make my system sound less like a system. Lots of reviews out there on them.

Ampzilla 2000 mono blocks by Spread Spectrum Technologies (Wired4sound).

A real sleeper - great sounding amps that can go head to head with anything!

Everyone knows that only great SET amp gives kind of midrange purity. 

Where are the Germans? Burmester , T+A , AVM and Brinkmann. It’s a Sin! :)

I think Burmester is one of the greatest of our times. Among Japanese it’s the MRC Niro 1000 , sublime but long gone. Accuphase is fantastic and so are Zandens only if you like tubes.

My personal reaction to most of the better solid state gear-Soulution, Constellation, MBL, etc., is that they sound very good and do not have the bad qualities ascribed to solid state (grainy, harsh).  While I cannot point out anything obviously wrong with the sound, for reasons I cannot really pinpoint, I tend to lose interest while listening to most solid state gear while better tube gear somehow tends to pull me into the music and performance more fully.  The fact that there are some more obvious "flaws" to tube gear performance (not as tight bass, tonal coloration, sometimes dynamic compression or murky quality at high volume) becomes quite irrelevant.  The overall experience, to me, is better with good tube gear.

On the other side of the coin, a lot of higher powered tube gear have qualities that seem more obvious flaws that I don't like at all--some are brittle and harsh ("glassy" sound) and are surprisingly lean in tonal balance (given the reputation of tubes) which seems to strip acoustic instruments of their body and rich harmonic structure.  If I required a lot of power and an OTL amp was not the answer (not enough power or speaker impedance is too low or too variable), I would probably end up with solid state.

Within the lower powered tube camp, I hardly think that SET is the only way to go for truly great midrange or any other quality.  I have heard quite a few great pushpull amps.  I picked the one I currently run in my system primarily because it gets the midrange so "right" and the Audio Note Kageki that I also own that the pushpull amp replaced is no slouch in that area.  My pushpull amp, which is essentially a re-built Western Electric 133A, puts out about 5.5 watts per channel (built in Italy by Aldo D'Urso who makes custom gear built to one's needs, personal specifications--tube type, transformer or capacitor coupled inputs, etc).

As for German solid state gear, I like the Burmester amp (I really liked their top end CD player) and I also like Symphonic amps.

There are a lot of nice comments here. One thing I think needs to be emphasized is how important the match is between the amplifier and loudspeaker!

For starters, all amps make less audible distortion when driving higher impedances. To this end, if a 4 ohm speaker were somehow magically made into an 8 ohm speaker, it would immediately sound more relaxed and detailed regardless of the amplifier driving it, simply because the amp would be making less distortion and the speaker cable would be having less detrimental effect.

There is a similar benefit going to 16 ohms- with the added benefit that the speaker cables become far less critical.

There is also the issue of the use of loop negative feedback in amplifiers. While loop feedback tends to suppress a lot of distortion, it also adds some of its own. Unfortunately the kinds that it adds are easily heard by the human ear, which translates all forms of distortion into tonality. In this case, the tonality is 'brighter' and 'harsher'.

(FWIW, the Ayre and some of the Pass amplifiers are zero feedback and that IMO and IME should not be regarded as coincidence that they are some of the best-sounding solid state amplifiers made.)

This is why loop feedback is avoided by many designers and used reluctantly by others. Of course, loop feedback also helps the amplifier control the load by reducing the 'damping factor' of the amplifier. You may have noticed that I used quotes there. I do that with 'output impedance' as well as both are charged terms that don't mean what they sound like they mean, which leads to a lot of confusion in the marketplace and indeed with designers themselves.

(Loop feedback is said to reduce output impedance, but what is really happening is there is a servo loop that occurs between the amplifier and loudspeaker. If the output impedance were really being lowered, the amplifier would be able to drive progressively lower loads without strain. This would violate a fundamental rule of electricity known as Kirchoff's Law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%27s_circuit_laws.
The only way you can drive lower impedances is with more output devices, larger output transformers and or heatsinks, bigger power supplies, etc, else the impedance of the output section might not be any different from that of the load, meaning that much of the power it makes will be dissipated by the output section itself rather than the load. Adding feedback to an amplifier does not change how much power it can make into a lower impedance, ergo its output impedance is unaffected. This is what I mean by a 'charged term'; in audio, 'output impedance' is not a measure of the actual impedance of the output circuit and is instead a measure of its **response** to lower output loads.)

Anyway, loop feedback is really there more to control the frequency response of the amplifier when presented with a non-linear load (IOW, all real-world loudspeakers... this idea was originally proposed and championed by EV and MacIntosh in the late 1950s and into the 1960s). The idea is that if there is a peak in the impedance curve of the speaker, it represents a resonance, so the amplifier will make less power into that peak. Similarly the amp will be asked to make more power into lower impedances. You can see right away that this rule has a lot of application with box speakers. 

The problem with this is that not all loudspeakers (many of which are highly respected) work properly with this scenario, called the Voltage Paradigm (as the ideal amplifier for this task is one which can make constant voltage into any load).

One of the problems is that all speakers have non-linear frequency response, so even if the amp is giving the right response the speaker will not. The other problem is not all loudspeakers have impedance peaks based on resonance. Electrostatics are a good example. The Voltage Paradigm relies on the idea that the impedance curve represents an efficiency curve; the simple fact is that such is not universal.

So the result is that a given amplifier won't sound right on all loudspeakers.

The Power Paradigm is what was around prior to the Voltage Paradigm. In this scenario, the amplifier tries to make constant power rather than constant voltage into all loads. None of them are successful at this, just as no Voltage Paradigm amplifier is 100% successful either. However, an advantage of the Power Paradigm is the recognition of how the human ear works- in that distortion is converted into tonality. The Power Paradigm avoids the brightness and harshness caused by loop negative feedback. It trades off this advantage for the disadvantage of non-linear frequency response, but it is understood that the ear has tipping points, one of them being that it can easily favor tonality from distortion over actual frequency response errors. We see this all the time with the brightness issue.

This is why many older (Power Paradigm) speaker designs and a number of current ones employ level controls for the tweeter or midrange. They are there not for room correction but to adjust the speaker to match the voltage response of the amplifier which is an unknown.

There are a good number of Power Paradigm devices for sale today in high end audio. SETs are a good example. Horns are another; ESLs and planar magnetics being more. Now its a simple fact that if you mix Power Paradigm technology with Voltage Paradigm technology, you are going to likely get a tonality aberration. An example is the brightness encountered when a transistor amplifier with lots of feedback is installed on an ESL. Another is the 'honkiness' experienced with many horn designs when their crossovers don't work as expected when the 'output impedance' of the amplifier driving them is too low (which can cause the woofer and midrange drivers to operate outside of their expected range).

I've noticed in this conversation that very dissimilar amplifiers are mentioned in the same breath, as if one were somehow able to compare them on the same speaker, which is likely to do one of the amplifiers a disservice! That is why I brought this up- matching between amp and speaker is pretty important and makes comparison really tricky at best!!

more info:
 http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

So, the best solution could be a custom amp for particular speakers, and I mean for a particular pair of speakers.
Atmasphere, do you do this?

One more for the Wells Audio Innanorata or the Innamorata Signature.
Fabulous sounding amp. 

So, the best solution could be a custom amp for particular speakers, and I mean for a particular pair of speakers.

Very occasionally. Usually we see speakers built for a particular amp. But if we were a speaker manufacturer it might be the other way 'round.

So I did some youtube 'auditioning' of the amps mentioned here, not all though. The only SS amps that I liked were Gryphon - deep dark powerful sound reaching subterranian regions. Hybrids - Ypsilon and Absolare followed by Lamm. Tube - Lamm SET.
Not impressed by Vitus or Swiss brands. Kondo has excellent tone but no drive or bass. MBL okay.
Will tryTenor, Wavac etc. too.
Best speaker so far - Lansche. Ypsilon/Lansche system is spectacular.
Very different, but Absolar/Rockport is very impressive too - big forcefull powerful sound, perfect for certain types of music.
I'll try to find another SS  to join this company, for now no luck.

Any love for older Krell integrated amps?  Say, the 300/400 series models?

I prefer the idea of using a tube preamplifier and solid state amplifier or mono blocks. Each of those represent the " real deal " .

larryi,
I guess there are some people that think like me.

Burmester
Soulution
Dartzeel
Esoteric
Boulder
Classe
Usher
YBA
T+A

As we go with a long list of prestigious amp names, i would like to add Hegel, Octave, Lampizator, Audio Tekne, and Triode Corporation...
But i guess the Boulder 3050 is the actual absolute reference around, and second i would go Gryphon Mephisto Solo. Tube wise, yet with power, it would be Coincident Dragon MkII (I would love to see another improved version, I am sure they can be built much better). They match the pricier Wavacs, Audionote, Viva and Absolare, for a fraction of the price. Low power tubes: Coincident Frankenstein MkII and Wavac EC300B are unbeatable so far. This is all just my point of view, not an absolute affirmation.