Better to buy a high end network player with a DAC?
A good network player does alot. And some really good players on the higher end include a dac. Seems to get a really good player, you need to have it come with a dac. And these dacs seem really amazing, but you lose independence that a separate dac allows.
Why do they force an internal dac on you, and is it all that bad? Advantages with an internal dac?
I don't know if there is an advantage to an onboard DAC but they build them cause people want them. Some peeps just dont want to mess with another external piece. Not all great players come with a DAC. I think the Bryston BDP series is an example.
The obvious advantages of a built-in DAC are simplicity and cost. You are also relying on the manufacturer to provide better synergy between the components, since they have more control and can presumably provide better integration.
However, if you're interested in high-end streamer-only components, consider ... Lumin U1 (higher model for the U1 Mini) Aurender N10 and N20 Wolf Audio -- several models Sonore Signature Rendu Optical SE
Based on my experience with digital, I feel that keeping the components (especially separate power supplies) separate is even more important compared to analog. @antigrunge2 has an awesome thread that talks about this in detail.
Possibly an internal dac is tailored and better sized to all the things included within a network player. So this may be a huge plus when considering getting an internal dac,
Above reference to lumin u1 i think is withou a dac. The dac in the lumin x1 is supposed to be amazing.
I’ve never been "forced.". I can not relate to yer "problem." Answer is no. Not better (than what?) just differentThe exact same DAC should be better on board. No guarantees.
@jumia -- the list I provided above was in fact 'streamer-only' solutions. This was in response to your first post --
Seems to get a really good player, you need to have it come with a dac. And these dacs seem really amazing, but you lose independence that a separate dac allows.
As you can see, there are many world class players that do not come with a DAC. I listed a few, I'm sure there are many more.
Melco seems to offer mostly servers included with players. Servers inside a player seems a bad idea? Dont follow why melco is any good. They offer an expensive switch for 2k, which if u use an optical connections seems pointless.
The premise is flawed. Plenty of great players out there come minus a DAC. Melco, for one
Would you mind elaborating how you can make such a generalized statement with absolutely no explanation?
In actual fact, if done properly, integrating the streamer/player in the same component as the DAC offers a number of advantages including the fact that the player and DAC can share the same master clock internally, the signal paths are magnitudes shorter in length than any interface connection made outside the box, and if the manufacturer knows what they are doing, the player software can be optimized for the DAC chip itself.
How all these threads raving about Lumin players cannot at the very minimum acknowledge that the products are glorified Chinese knock-offs of Linn DS/DSM network music players is baffling, especially when the Linn products have far better performance and features.
but you lose independence that a separate dac allows.
Almost every network music player I am aware of (Linn, Naim, SimAudio, etc.) offer the option of an SPDIF output if you really want to use a separate DAC.
very helpful comments, so it seems a dac inside a player is appropriate in light of all the stuff that goes on inside box that most have no clue about...
You'll have to forgive me, as I was there in the beginning and saw exactly what Lumin did, which is essentially copy-cat Linn (in nearly every respect they could at the time). It's surprising to me that they have gained the popularity they have within the audio community to the point that a typical conversation about network streamers on any number of threads on this forum are filled with references to Lumin, and yet no mentions of the folks who so obviously inspired everything that Lumin did at the time.
should i feel comfortable buying Lumin? Is it really a Linn product?
It is most definitely not a Linn product. Essentially what they did was see what Linn were doing with the category and their Klimax DS at the time, and attempt to copy it in terms of build, architecture, etc.
I think Lumin has done a good job at trying to compete with Linn and as far as overall product build, support, and performance they are something worth considering, and I wouldn't personally feel uncomfortable purchasing and/or representing their product in the right application. However, to consider something like a Lumin without also looking into what a Linn DSM can do (and how they perform), along with other more established HiFi brands such as Naim, Sim Audio Moon, T+A (not as well known), etc. is sort of leaving a lot on the table.
Of course I am speaking of all-in-one streamer/DAC combos, getting into mixing and matching streamers and DACs is a whole other ball game.
The only advantage of internal DAC is convenience.
Again, people making claims with absolutely no comprehension of what they are talking about.
Can you explain to me how increasing the complexity and room for error in a given electrical circuit, and increasing the path the signal has to travel is in any way more beneficial?
Melco is indeed a player with a NAS. No DAC included, which was the point. I’m talking about their player NAS combo, not the switch, so that comment is a non sequiter. Regarding iron lung, what do I need to defend? I merely said that many players are offered sans DAC. Scan a catalog from a major retailer and you find a bunch. I didn’t say putting it all under one bonnet was a bad idea, just that the original premise of the OP, that players that come without DACs are bad, was incorrect
Mr mahler, didnt say players without dacs are bad.
i said its tough to get the higher end players without a dac, eg lumen x1, dcs bartok. The lumin u1 is without dac, and it is a very good player. The x1 has more to offer relating to the player, but it also includes a dac.
and maybe there is merit in getting a dac built into a player. You dont find higher end processors with an amp and there is a clear reason for this. Quality higher stereo preamps wouldnt dream of having an amp.
not the case with a player where it may offer an advantage when including a dac.
just that the original premise of the OP, that players that come without DACs are bad, was incorrect
My apologies @mahler123 I misinterpreted your meaning. I though you were indicating that the premise of having a DAC built into/along with a player is somehow flawed. I now see what you were pointing out, that OP's premise that you can't find DAC-less players is flawed.
Yea, there are plenty of DAC-less players out there now. Most of them are just computers. Quite frankly if I was OP, I'd avoid Roon (their player doesn't sound particularly good), turn the Nucleus into a NAS, and use a UPnP/DLNA type solution if I were concerned with SQ - heck, a Raspberry Pi as an endpoint running SqueezePlayer or MPD would probably outperform what he has right now.
not the case with a player where it may offer an advantage when including a dac.
As I see it, any DAC manufacturer not including a player solution are leaving things up to a crapshoot when it comes to their product because without a comprehension of what is happening upstream there is no way to guarantee the performance of the DAC in the first place. Further, it is my opinion that DAC manufacturers should publish the specifications and equipment used in developing their product, so that consumers know the following:
- What player software and file types were used in developing the DAC and it's associated interfaces - What hardware was used for the player software, and which interfaces on that hardware were used in the development of the DAC - If they include a player with the DAC, whether it is bespoke/custom or something provided by a third party, and specify which third party
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