Better Cartridge/Turntable advice for old-school Hip Hop music

Another suggestion if you’re selling the bel cantos to try Hegel or Pass Labs amp. 
You can go the integrated route as well. Also worth trying one of the Sutherland phono stages, as well as Chord Huei and McIntosh MP100. 

Have you tried the AT stock cartridge on the Thorens?

Hi guys,

This is an update for this old thread as I have found the weak link in my system. Thank you guy for all the inputs but eventually i could not have much time to figure what caused the problem in my system. 

TLDR above: my systems sounds great on many genre, except for hiphop it lack the speed & lively feel. 

@chakster you were definitely right but I have no one around to borrow another phono stage until now!

Accidentally a few days ago my friend needs help on ripping a vinyl so I switched out my tube phono preamp - the Yoshino EAR 834 - replacing with his phono REGA Fono A2D (very simple, cheaper phono). And guess what, WOW! The music comes to live: I played some hiphop records and BOOM, the bass kicked in more powerful, the speed was faster and paired well with the rapping, no more laid back, no more "too chill" kind of mood. I lived with the REGA for the past week. 

I also recently bought a pair of monoblocks - the Bel Canto REF1000M Mk. 2 - I put them into the systems, and again, the speed of the music was slowed down, and the fast pace is not there any more, however, it drives me crazy as the new sound stage from the monoblocks are just so huge and clear, detailed are picked up nicely on every LP i put on, regardless of genre. The monoblocks drives my speakers so effortlessly that I don't even need to crank up the volume yet still having the feeling of beautiful music surround me. Yet again, it does not provide the speed and pace for hiphop - the genre I listen to at least half of the time. 

I read up an old review on positive feedback on the mk.1 of these monoblocks and the reviewer have the same view: "I'd say the Rogues (amps) do it in a slightly more aggressive manner, while the Bel Cantos are more laid back" and "Ain't Built For Speed". Damn it!

So my new quest: what could I do to improve my situation? I have a new pair of Joseph Audio Pearl coming in hence the new purchase of the (2nd hand) Bel Canto monoblocks. Should I upgrade my phono preamp (I'm current took my friend's REGA mentioned above and compared to the rest of the systems the REGA phono is the quite lower end)? Or should I sell the Bel Canto and look for another pair of monoblocks? My budget is around $4k and I prefer buying used equipment, since audio dealers here in Singapore does not let you bring home and demo the electronics they are selling, so no point buying new from them. 

Thanks a lot guys for reading my long post!
Kevin

VTA will never change a bad sounding cartridge to a good sounding cartridge. This is all about minor changes that you can barely hear. Look at the diamond of your cartridge under a macro lens and if there is nothing wrong I don't think you can tune the sound by VTA adjustment. 

I don't know what do you expect from your speakers. This can be a problem, maybe you need a high efficient speaker instead ? Bookshelf without SUB means no deep bass.  

If some of your friend can give you another phono stage to try then definitely try it. 



 

VTA is changed by adjusting the height of the arm. Use an allen key on the base of the arm pillar. Start with arm parallel to record. Raise pillar for brighter more incisive sound. Lower it for darker. It may vary between records but play around with it.

@dekay @noromance sure, thanks for the advice I'll be adjusting the VTA to see if there's any changes. But in specific, what should I adjust? Height? I measured the cartridge tracking weight and it's spot on. 

The cartridge is mounted on the headshell by Dave @vinylnirvana and I mounted it on the table myself with his instruction and the table suspension is working well, I've made sure of it. The whole table is being put on a slab of hardwood on a ball bearing systems as the same with all other component of the systems, so seismic vibration is not a big issue. I will check again on the speed of the AT LP7 and try to swap the cartridge on the AT LP7 onto the Thorens to see how. 

@atmasphere yes I understand that's there are none for-all-around, and if there is it would probably not good, hence I've thought of keeping both table but my space allowance is very limited to do so. :) 

@mijostyn My space def. not allow for another sub :). My current sub is a 100lbs sub which could break glass haha and I've only used up to a fraction of its own volume. As said, the problem is not about the bass, it's the slow, relaxing and laid-back characteristic the new table brings. And yes, the Black Messiah is a great record!

Maybe the AT LP7 was running fast!

@hoangkhoi1207

Its Impossible to build any sort of audio equipment that favors or excludes any kind of music genre- to electronics and turntables, its all just a signal. If someone found a way to favor a certain genre of music with a speaker, turntable or electronics they would be a millionaire overnight!


The fact that other things sound good is telling you something.


I had an original Beastie Boys LP- the one that has non-vocal instrumental tracks on it. It was stolen, years later got re-issued. The reissue stinks- didn't have the punch and drive of the original. I suspect that you are used to hearing a certain EQ that is common with the genre- it might be that is all you need.

Hoangkhoi1207, Nothing wrong with that turntable. More than likely your old table had a peak in the bass you got use too. 
You are looking for some bop. I can understand that. You need a second subwoofer and some expert set up help. Once you have a sub on both sides you can raise the crossover point a bit and turn the volume up a little on the subs giving you a little more mid bass and some bop for your drop. If you ever upgrade your speakers go for Klipsch Cornwall IV's 
a brilliant Hip Hop speaker if there ever was one. Check out D Angelo's Black Messiah. Killer record:)

Try the VTA adjustment. you may be surprised.
Did you add the Jelco after you got it serviced? If so, the suspension might need readjustment.
What is the turntable mounted on? Try adding a slab of marble or a sheet of glass underneath with metal or ceramic cones instead of rubber feet.

Agree with noromance:

Play around with VTA.

Only owned one 12" arm (SME) and though theoretically it should have been less "touchy" than the like 9" SME versions I also used/use - it wasn't.

DeKay

I think the write up of my post made you guys confused. Sorry about that.

As I wrote on the original post:

What has been improved is that general tonality, soundstage, are all became greater in terms of space, definition and clarity, instruments became much more musical and natural sounding. 

The audio quality has been vastly improved, even for hiphop. Not all hiphop records are recorded badly and to a certain extent I know which one has been recorded badly. I did my homework before buying which pressing of the records and some I bought multiple pressings to find out the best sound suitable for me.

The actual problem here, again as per my previous reply, is the RHYTHM, the beating pace, the characteristic of the music has became slow, less powerful, much more laid-back, relaxing that is not true to the spirit of the music. That is what I’m concerning about.

I have this issue before trying my friends’ amp (the Japanese Accuphase) on my system with the AT-7 and the music become much more relaxing and laid-back, after switching to my Rogue Amp the music is in a totally different characteristic, more power, fast and intriguing. Now I have the same problem with the new Thorens turntable.

That’s an excellent analogy @millercarbon

@Kevin, the Thorens TD125 Long-Base  looks quite beautiful. The adjusted table might be telling you that some of these Hip Hop albums just aren't very good recordings as others have said. Still nice TT.

After paying almost $4k on upgrading the table, ALL my Hiphop records sound MUCH slower in speed, rapping vocal became less powerful, which I know for the genre, speed and power would be the 1st priority, hence in general the music became less intriguing. 

Hiphop becomes less intriguing. Haven't we all been there? But seriously, the answer is staring you in the face. Have you tried reading your post?

What has been improved is that general tonality, soundstage, are all became greater in terms of space, definition and clarity, instruments became much more musical and natural sounding.

The new Thorens TD125 triumphed the old AT LP7 for all other genres: rock (Beatles, Pink Floyd, David Bowie, Stones, RadioHead, etc.), soul (Isaac Hayes), jazz, funk, blues, etc… are all sounds so good for me at the moment.

I’m truly satisfied when putting on these other genres

So, logically, what we have here, it can be only one of two possibilities. Either you have found the one cartridge, tone arm, and turntable combination in all the world capable of making everything else but one specific genre of music sound bad, or you are in love with the one specific genre of music that is recorded really bad. 

Its one or the other. But my money is on you keep tilting at windmills.

Try raising the Jelco a millimeter at a time and see if that helps.

Im my experience, old hip hop music recordings sound like crap and your upgraded turntable set up is revealing the recording for what is.

Im my experience, old hip hop music recordings sound like crap and your upgraded turntable set up is revealing the recording for what is.

@chakster Thank you & @yogiboy for your input. What I mean in "speed" is not the speed accuracy that the turntable runs at, but the rhythm, the beat that I listen to on this vintage table. It is more relaxing, laid-back feeling that is not fast and power that I would expect from Hip hop. I hope this clear the confusion. 

Also I'm well aware of the Hiphop era but given that 2 other eras has passed since the gold school, many now has consider the 1980s/90s to be the new "old-school" for hiphop and I agree with that :). Cheers!

I'll definitely look into the Technics option as you and @yogiboy mentioned but tbh after so much effort putting into the Thorens I'm very reluctant to sell it aways, it sounds wonderfully on rock, is another reason for keeping it too. It's best that I can purchase a more suitable cartridge to switch on the Thorens. 

Buy yourself a Technics Direct Drive if you want speed stability, not a belt drive! The "G" is too expensive, look for "GR" instead (or at least mk7).

This is one of the best NOS cartridges you can get, but Audio-Technica cartridges also very nice, depends on the model and your budget. You need an MM cartridge for your music. But most of the Hip Hop records are nothing special in terms of quality compared to old original funk records they used to sample making hip hop. But anyway, there are some good and bad sounding records. You can’t go wrong with the Pickering XSV/4000 or cheaper XSV/3000, those cartridges will give you some warmth, they are very nice and some of them are not expensive. I have many Pickering and Stanton in my own collection. Loads of Funk & Soul originals here and some nice Hip Hop too.

Artists you have mentioned are not oldschool, it’s the golden era or hip hip (90's).
The oldschool in hip-hop is late 70’s and 80’s.

Sell both tables and get a Technics SL1200 GR or SL1200 G.
https://www.overtureav.com/?s=technics+turntables&post_type=product