I have a Rega Planar 3 that sits a few feet too far away to reach my Marantz AV7704 phono stage.
whats the best way to reach my Marantz preamp processor with the short 2 foot phono cables that come with the Rega?
It sounds like rca extensions are going to cause too much capacitance and there is also a difference between phono extension cables and rca cables. Please teach me!
It appears that the Rega P3 is normally fitted with a Rega RB300 tonearm, which according to the listing at Vinylengine.com has an effective mass of 11.5 grams. Also, since the cartridge is made in Japan its dynamic compliance is probably specified on the basis of 100 Hz, rather than on the 10 Hz basis that is usually used by the calculators, such as this one. I would expect that its compliance at 10 Hz is **probably** in the rough vicinity of 10 or so.
Plugging a compliance of 10 into that calculator in combination with a tonearm effective mass + cartridge weight of 11.5 + 6.5 = 18 grams results in a calculated resonant frequency of 11.86 Hz, which is within the 8 to 12 Hz range that is often considered to be ideal.
But note the word "probably" in my statement. It’s hard to say for sure.
Guys, I may have figured it out and I would like to get your opinion. The P3 mass is 11 g. My Nagoaka MP-110 cartridge is 6.5 g with only a 6 for dynamic compliance. Using an online calculator this puts the resonant frequency at a15-16 Hz!I believe it’s supposed to be around10 Hzcorrect? Do you agree this is most likely my problem?
First, the noise didn’t change when I moved the Marantz around. Second, I have a second Marantz (same one) that I tried and the noise was exactly the same.
Third, even though the TT was turned off I decided to remove the phono cables extensions and it got rid of the hum. I’m assuming it got rid of the ground hum since there is no ground wire coming from a Rega table to connect. HOWEVER, even though the hum is gone, in the phono selection of my Marantz when I crank it up there is a smooth hiss like the ocean. Is this inherent in all phono or will an external preamp that is of higher quality get rid of this?
Finally, the rumble problem is still there but that’s different issue. Also,I don’t have an external phono preamp to try at the moment. I will be ordering one soon though.
You need a very well shielded phono rca cable from your tt to your phono input. There must be a third line just for ground (wire). As i said it's a bad idea to use unbalanced phono cable for longer than 1,5 meters (even this is too much). What is your cartridge?
You can try external phono stage with short cable from tt to this stage and longer cable from phono stage to your line input.
The TT is turned OFF for the following troubleshooting. I play the system fine on every other input. As soon as I turn the input on the Marantz to Phono, there is hum. How can this be?
The crazy thing is this was a brand new P3 and I’ve used it without any trouble for a few months, then all of the sudden rumble from nowhere, so I moved the whole setup thinking the speaker was too close to the TT only to make the TT too far away from the Marantz and still rumble and now hum when the phono input is selected, and the TT isn’t even powered on! I have tried two different amps as well and the hum is still there, and I have a hum X on the amp power line plugged directly into the outlet in the wall.
In your current thread about power conditioners I noticed the following statement:
I have a Sony OLED TV, Marantz preamp processor, Atoll amp, cable box, nighthawk router, Xbox, Rega P3 TT, and powered 12” subwoofer with 2 stereo speakers. I have 2 Monster JP 800 surge protectors if nothing else to plug everything into.
My suggestion is that to isolate the causes of the rumble and hum problems you start by simplifying the setup as much as possible. Disconnect and unplug everything except what is needed for phono operation (turntable, prepro, amp, main speakers but not the sub). Remove the two Monster Cable surge protectors (some surge protectors can do funny things with grounds) and plug the prepro, turntable, and amp directly into a wall outlet. See if the problems are still present. If not, reconnect the remaining items one by one.
Also, just a thought but cable boxes have been known to cause hum in audio systems, especially if something is amiss with the ground connection of the cable outside the house.
Geez so many people on here don't have a clue about what they are talking. This is the last place I would go to for advice. Educate yourself and then do some serious research instead of bouncing around the internet forums and taking in advice from there. Most of them are just plain morons.
Wow Hey thanks That's so useful to the OP. Just had a great idea. Why don't you try and educate all of the morons here Oddio. I am sure we would be fascinated by your insight.....
Balanced interconnects can be much longer than unbalanced and they are designed for a long run, an equipment with balanced input/output required. Nowadays many manufacturers of the phono stages can offer a model with balanced output (Gold Note Ph-10 for example), such phono stage can be far away from a preamp/amp and connected with balanced cables. Zu Audio in USA is the manufacturer of excellent phono cables (including balanced interconnects).
Geez so many people on here don't have a clue about what they are talking. This is the last place I would go to for advice. Educate yourself and then do some serious research instead of bouncing around the internet forums and taking in advice from there. Most of them are just plain morons.
The crazy thing is this was a brand new P3 and I’ve used it without any trouble for a few months, then all of the sudden rumble from nowhere, so I moved the whole setup thinking the speaker was too close to the TT only to make the TT too far away from the Marantz and still rumble and now hum when the phono input is selected, and the TT isn’t even powered on! I have tried two different amps as well and the hum is still there, and I have a hum X on the amp power line plugged directly into the outlet in the wall.
Assuming the turntable cable is hard wired and not a plug-in, buy a decent "audiophile," short (.5m orr 1m) cable and some gold-plated joiners and try them. You will either hear a diminishment or not. Don't assume the worse. If you are using a MM, you may. If you are using an MC cartridge, you probably will not.
Keep in mind that a typical 1 meter set of RCA interconnects will add roughly 100pf on their own... +/- 15pf. Some designs/manufacturers start out way higher than that.
Since you say you make your own cables... I will obstain from any recommendations.
I agree with finding a phono preamp with switchable settings... but would also recommend one that has settings for zero capacitance.
Either that... or one that you can pull the lid and swap the capacitors and resistors manually. Some even allow a person to swap out op-amps.
Be careful you don't fall in the rabbit hole at this point. ;)
So just exploring I extended the TT phono cables to connect to the preamp using phono input selector. It introduced an intense hum only present on the phono input.
Is this due to the fact that my rca extension cables are not grounded like the TT phono cables? Now remember that I have a Rega and the grounding is not done through your typical separate grounding wire.
... as far as I understand, capacitance does not matter if you use a Moving Coil(MC) cartridge.
The OP’s cartridge in this case is a moving magnet type. But regarding this point, generally speaking load capacitance is much less important in the case of a **low output** moving coil cartridge. But it can still matter, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the particular phono stage that is used, and generally speaking the less capacitance the better in the case of an LOMC.
Lyra cartridge designer Jonathan Carr explained it as follows, in a post dated 8-14-2010 this thread:
I should now debunk another myth regarding loading, which is that low-impedance MC cartridges are insensitive to capacitive loading. OK, the MC cartridges themselves aren’t particularly sensitive to capacitance, but the inductance of the cartridge coils will resonate with the distributed capacitance of the coils and the capacitance of the tonearm cable to create a high-frequency spike, and this spike certainly is sensitive to capacitance. In general, the less the capacitance the better. Having more capacitance (across the plus and minus cartridge outputs) will increase the magnitude of the high-frequency spike and lower its frequency, neither of which is good news for phono stage stability or phase response.
Generally speaking, the greater the capacitance across the plus and minus cartridge outputs, the heavier the resistive loading needs to be to control the resulting high-frequency spike. Conversely, less capacitance allows the resistive load on the cartridge to be reduced, which will benefit dynamic range, resolution and transient impact.
From the above we can deduce that tonearm cables for low-impedance MCs should have low capacitance. As a test, some time ago I built some 5-pin low-capacitance tonearm cables of 1.2m length (configured for use with a Graham Phantom). Including 5-pin and RCA connectors, the smallest-capacitance versions got down to 32pF, there was an intermediate version at 42pF, and the highest-capacitance version had 50pF. I felt that these low-capacitance tonearm cables resulted in greater flexibility in loading, a more natural tonal balance with better dynamics and resolution, and were a worthwhile upgrade.
All, Thank you for the blue jeans cable suggestions but I make my own interconnects using either cardas rca connectors or neutrik balanced XML with Duelund oil infused cotton wrapped wire from Germany. If you haven’t heard about it, Google it. It’s great stuff!
I use Blue Jeans Cable from the Seattle area. Their interconnects have very low capacitance, and very reasonable price wise. Quality connectors and so on. Not sure if your Rega has RCA jacks or fixed leads coming out of the tonearm. If the Rega uses a din plug so you can use alternate phono cables then it is possible for you to have some made that will reach your phono inputs. Or you could move your Rega close enough to reach the phono input.
Consider iFi iPhono as a phono preamp. It has settings for capacitance and various settings for the equalization. I like mine set at 100pF and use their proprietary eRIAA settings for equalization. By playing with the settings you will be able to hear what you like. Also, as far as I understand, capacitance does not matter if you use a Moving Coil(MC) cartridge. The iFi has various settings for loading impedance for an MC cartridge. Just keep the cable length from your Rega to the iFi short. Another good thing about this preamp is its size - you can hide it behind your Rega. Hope this helps.
You could try things in steps and see what you think of the sound for yourself. If you like what you're hearing with what you already have, you don't necessarily need to go down a rabbit hole.
First, get some Blue Jeans cables that are of a length that would allow you to connect your turntable to the Marantz. If you get a phono pre you're going to need another set of cables anyways. If it sounds good to you, you're done.
If you'd like to take it to the next level, then get a phono preamp and try it in place of the phono stage in the Marantz.
If it sounds good to you, you're done.
If you want to bypass the Marantz and have a cleaner route (less distortion from the Marantz) from the turntable to your speakers, then your next step is to get a 2 channel line stage or preamp, preferably one with home theater bypass so that you can share your front speakers and amp.
A line stage doesn't have a phono stage and would be all you need if you've already bought a separate phono preamp. A two channel preamp will typically include a phono stage. Depending on the quality of the preamp, the included phono stage may be pretty decent.
First, I love the analogies of Miller Carbon! It really paints the picture!
Also Greg, that makes total sense the way you explained it! Thank you!
Ok, so is there something you recommend that will act as a phono preamp that can also bipass the Marantz and go straight to my Atoll Amp being shared with the Marantz? I can’t stress enough the difference between the Atoll and the Anthem. How can a $4500 A5 Anthem sound like complete garbage next to the $2000 Atoll? It’s flat and dead where the Atoll is like sitting in the pit of an orchestra.
The Marantz is a home theater processor and has a lot of electronics stuffed into one box. It's good at a lot of things, but not great at anything including two channel music reproduction. I have a separate two channel preamp (a Modwright LS100) that I use for two channel listening. It lets more of the music through (I don't know how better to describe it) than the Marantz. It has a home theater bypass circuit so I can share my amps and front channels with the Marantz when I'm using it for home theater. The Marantz isn't bad by any measure, but it's a compromise when used for two channel music.
Something you may want to consider is the iFi Micro iTube2 connected between your Marantz and Atoll amp. It will provide you some ‘tube magic’ no mater what your source is, including your phono stage. On a whim I picked one up used and placed it between my Yamaha receiver (which I also use as a processor/pre, not sure it could work the same with your 500 or not, as I only use my B&K for the 2 main channels) and ‘vintage’ B&K amp that powers my mains, and am quite happy with it. Quite an interesting piece of equipment, and seems to blow other tube buffer stages out of the water with its quality and options provided per those who have reviewed it compared to others, many that are more a gimmick than useful addition to a system.
Gosh thanks everybody. I don’t think I have the time to address each one of you, but I want to make a few points as to where I am with all of this.
I want to go back and study all of the impedance stuff because it’s interesting and I want to learn. I don’t think the Rega P3 has a separate ground wire.
I have decided on a new phono stage because it’s pretty unanimous it will give me better sound as well as solve my short cable problem. In this journey have learned to make my own Duelund interconnects for when I buy a phono stage. I either want to buy a Schiit Mani, Atoll P200SE, or tube phono stage which I haven’t researched enough yet.
I am not quite sure why the Marantz is the limiting factor since it’s just a preamp processor and I am using the best amp I have ever heard in my limited experience, using the Atoll 500 to biamp my MA Golds. However, I am not disagreeing with you, I just didn’t think the Marantz was doing very much in the equation.
Don’t forget you’ll need to ground your TT. Phono pre will likely have a place to attach the ground wire from your table and so is a good solution to that aspect.
My thoughts right now is just go with a pair of extension RCA cables and see what you think. I'm betting you will be quite happy. I had a TT sitting in a similar fashion, it's cable was 18" too short to reach. I made it work even more down and dirty with a pair of RCA adapter and another regular set of RCA cables. Sounded PDG to my ears. Of course that was just temporary and I had a longer phono cable made from the TT to reach. But my point is before you blow a load of dough just try it.
Greg is correct in that the Marantz is going to be the limiting factor no matter how good an independent Phonostage you put between it and your TT.
For the money, it’s hard to beat the Schiit Mani and Blue Jeans LC-1 low capacitance RCA cables, and will far exceed the built-in phono stage of your receiver. Been there, doing that.
Let me start out by thanking the OP for starting this thread. I’m a relative noob to all this and will be adding a phono stage to a receiver(Oulaw RR2160) as well. Which I think would be the best solution for you if you just don’t lengthen the cables. I’m learning quite a bit from this thread. For the record I’m looking into mostly tube phono stages and will most likely move into a integrated amp a year from now.
You might be getting lost in the weeds a bit with all this talk about impedance matching. The Nagaoka cartridges are MM cartridges and they should work with most any MM phono preamp. Unless you get something really exotic, most phono preamps should work with the Marantz. I have a Nagaoka MP-500.
I wouldn't go crazy on a phono preamp, the Marantz is going to be a limiting factor in terms of ultimate sound quality. You can spend a few hundred (not sure what your budget is) and get better sound quality than the built in phono pre in the Marantz, but your turntable and the Marantz are only going to take you so far in terms of sound quality. If you want to try tubes, try one of the Pro-ject offerings, or something like the Parks Puffin if you want to go solid state. I think anything beyond that might be a waste of money for your current setup.
Just about any but the cheapest stand alone phono stage will blow away every phono card ever made. Any.
I either don’t follow or don’t agree. As a designer, if i have a high quality power supply, box, and attendant hardware already there, for free --- making a superb phono board is relatively easy and inexpensive - I can deliver $1500 performance for $500, even being lavish with components. Nothing changes except an independent box has vastly more cost, and a bunch more wires and plugs to degrade the sound. And take up space. Oh, and the fancy faceplate you can point to. There’s a reason for stand-alone phonos, but they are not automatically superior in any way.
For the record my dedicated phono stage, plug-in card and preamp with integrated phono were all the same circuit. Not similar, same. Once i optimized it, what was i supposed to do, make one worse just so they were different? It didn’t save any appreciably money (unless i went to a cheap-ass design, and guess what -- that still doesn’t save that much, the PCB is the single largest cost anyway - if you make them in the USA)
Think of it this way craigert, electricity is like water. The signal coming out of a component is like the water coming out a pipe. In order for the water to do work, blast off the driveway say, it takes a lot of pressure. That's voltage. But you only have so much water coming in from the street. That's your power supply. This is why components like amps that use a lot of power, they have their own private reservoir called caps. Big amps that drive speakers have huge reservoirs, able to supply water to thirsty speakers. Small amps like a phono stage have very small ones, barely enough to sip through a straw.
Now the music signal, its not a nice steady flow but instead is one powerful surging pulse after another. In order to get a drum whack to sound right, its like trying to blast a rock off your driveway. What do you do? Hold the hose wide open? Then you lose all the pressure. But put your thumb on the end, pressure goes way up, now the stream has all kinds of pressure, blows the rock right off.
Your thumb is impedance. High impedance, high resistance to flow, high pressure, high transient response. Low impedance, low resistance to flow, source component runs out of gas, drains the bass and dynamics right out of the music.
Yeah its more colorful and metaphorical than technically correct, but more than good enough to see you through.
Don;t fret! Extension cables ought to work fine. Just get good cables, shielded, female RCA --> male RCA and enjoy. If you find too much capacitance (reduced high frequencies) try something else. I made my own and they worked great. Noise is typically a bigger issue than capacitance, especially since a little more C generally gives it more "warmth" which most vinyl lovers actually want :-) G
I wish I understood how that all worked. Impede sounds like it’s resisting something. So if the Marantz has low impedance then why would a tube amp have a hard time with it? So would I also want to make sure the operating ohms of a tube amp is on the higher end and closer to 30-40k?
Yes, resistance is a form of impedance. For further explanation of the difference between impedance and resistance see my first post in the following thread:
A tube power amplifier is very unlikely to have a problem with the Marantz. What I was referring to that **might** result in a less than optimal impedance match is driving the Marantz with the output of some tube-based phono stages.
It’s important to distinguish between how output impedances and input impedances relate to the component providing the signal. From the perspective of the component providing the signal the input impedance it is driving appears in parallel. Thus the higher the input impedance the lighter the load it presents to the component providing the signal. While output impedances can be thought of as being in series with the connection, and thus the higher the output impedance the more the signal will be affected by the interaction of output impedance and input impedance. Which tends to be especially problematical if output impedance is high AND input impedance is low AND either impedance varies significantly as a function of frequency, in which case frequency response and/or phase response anomalies can result.
And components employing tube-based output stages often have coupling capacitors at their outputs. The impedance presented by a capacitor increases as frequency decreases, which often results in the output impedance of a component employing a tube-based output stage being much higher at deep bass frequencies than the specified output impedance, which is usually based on a mid-range frequency such as 1 kHz.
For further comments regarding impedance matching of line-level interfaces, see my first post in the following thread:
Great to know thank you Al! I already wrote Marantz about the phono input capacitance. I will write them about the line level input impedance as well. I wish I understood how that all worked. Impede sounds like it’s resisting something. So if the Marantz has low impedance then why would a tube amp have a hard time with it? So would I also want to make sure the operating ohms of a tube amp is on the higher end and closer to 30-40k?
I found a report that the cartridge capacitance for the MP-110 is either 100 or 300.
As I said, "various anecdotal reports I found regarding what capacitance may be optimal for it are inconsistent and inconclusive." Those are very different numbers :-)
Also, 100 pf is too low to be achievable with many phono stages in many setups.
Is the goal to get the capacitance of the tone arm, phono cable, and input capacitance of the preamp to match the recommended total capacitance of the cartridge?
Yes, for a moving magnet cartridge ideally the sum of the capacitances of the tonearm cable, the phono cable, and the input capacitance of the phono stage should fall within the range of load capacitance recommended by the manufacturer of the cartridge, assuming the manufacturer provides a recommendation. And they should provide a recommendation, but as in this case they sometimes don’t.
What are your thoughts on tube preamp vs solid state.
I have no experience with phono stages in the price range you appear likely to be interested in. But I’ll mention that some tube-based phono stages may have problems driving line-level inputs having low input impedances. (An input designated as being for connection of a CD player, for example, is a line-level input). And the input impedance of the line-level inputs of the AV7704 is not specified. So if you want to consider a tube-based phono stage it would be best to first ask Marantz what that number is. If it is say 30K or 40K (30,000 or 40,000 ohms) or higher there won’t be a problem with almost any phono stage. But if it is much lower than that some tube-based phono stages might have a problem.
Thanks Al. I found a report that the cartridge capacitance for the MP-110 is either 100 or 300.
Is the goal to get the capacitance of the tone arm, phono cable, and input capacitance of the preamp to match the recommended total capacitance of the cartridge?
What are your thoughts on tube preamp vs solid state.
Can somebody teach me how the capacitance works for matching to my Nagaoka MP-110?
Unfortunately it appears that the manufacturer does not provide a load capacitance recommendation. And various anecdotal reports I found regarding what capacitance may be optimal for it are inconsistent and inconclusive.
I did find mention of a measurement someone performed of the cartridge’s inductance, the result being 810 mH (milliHenries). That is a very high number, and suggests to me that relatively low load capacitance is more likely than not to be optimal. However that can’t be said with certainty, and in any event we don’t know what the input capacitance of the phono stage in the Marantz is. And of course capacitances vary widely among different cables, as well as being proportional to cable length for a given cable type. So it comes down to guesswork and trial and error at this point.
If you do purchase a separate phono stage, though, it would be best to choose one which provides a choice of several different load capacitance settings.
Haha thanks! I look young. I’m 46 years old though. I was probably like 38 in my profile pic back when I was still doing tournament paintball/speedball. I thought the AV7704 was the exact same as the former Marantz flagship AV8802 which is why I thought it might have a decent phono stage. Can somebody teach me how the capacitance works for matching to my Nagaoka MP-110?
I have never been so excited to have to spend more money. Lol
My TT setup with my Monitor Audio Golds is already showing greater sound to my ears than my CDs, but that’s a whole other conversation/argument for another thread.
ok so here is the deal. I’m going to buy a phono preamp. The question is tube or solid state. If I buy solid state I have to go with my favorite brand from France, Atoll. I have a couple of their amps, and they absolutely blew away my $4500 Anthem A-5. I don’t even want the A-5 anymore but I’m keeping it to push surrounds in an Atmos theater I am building in the basement. I know just enough to be dangerous with this stuff, but with my Atoll amps I feel like there are little people inside of my speakers making the music.
^^ stop being a snob. everybody starts somewhere. by his avatar they look to be my sons age 25' ish. they are the future of this hobby.
the better AV''s usually knock off the extra amps when phono is selected and go into discrete stereo mode.
Craig - I would go to bestbuy or a like store on black friday and just pick up a 6 foot anaconda like looking rca cable - 8^0 . try it out and return it. you can't hurt anything.
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