blacktalon-- whats the latest with Sachs?
Best Tubed Preamp For A Warm, Rich Sound, Yet Still Detailed and Agile
As the title says, I am looking for an exceptional preamp (obviously tubed) with warmth and liquidity, some of that golden glow, in the midrange and highs. I do not want slowness, or lack of detail, however. My budget is up to $6,000.00, for a used model.
Based on my research, many of those that might make the list are very rare to find, and other recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
Based on my research, many of those that might make the list are very rare to find, and other recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
75 responses Add your response
MP-1 Pre-Amp from AtmaSphere. I have had the Aesthetix older Calypso pre-amp from 2006. Had a nice musical Tube Sound to it. Mind you their are a number of upgrade option for this pre-amp. As much as I loved it I never really missed this pre-amp. The MP1 does not not really impart a sound of its own. The Dynamics is a lot more better then Aesthetix and the speed and clean delivery of the musical notes is something one has to hear to appreciate it. The transparency and musicality is a league above from all the pre-amps I have gone through. I just sent my Pre-Amp back to Ralph and already I'm missing it. I also have the MP3 on a second setup. The issue with this warmer sounding pre-amp is you lose some information and over time you start to crave for more details but balancing both Smooth delivery and transparency so far has been done with the MP-1 Pre-amp better than any other pre-amps I spent money on. MP-1 to my opinion leaves the MP-3 well behind. the Diffrence is pretty large. |
As far as detail like a SET amplifier a Direct Heated Triode Preamplifier Has only 1 stage ,most preamplifiers gave 2-3:stages. My preamp,,and latest being built use for one parts quality night and day better then 90% of Any commercial units which only 20- 25 % of the cost actually go To the parts . With custom builds 60% and fir less money's. My new preamp has 4 Lundahl chokes for ultimate filtering and 3 Transformers also Lundahl and Heybourer which are all custom built.all transformer coupled Is much more Accurate then any Capacitor coupled. The key for a Exceptional DHT preamp is the experience. I compared mine to Coincident loaded with Inexpensive capacitors for coupling. It s 101 tube is good but not as linear As the 4P1L tube just do a search. It can be a bit microphonic if not isolated properly with mine not an issue, and power supply only 4pole capacitors All bypassed by Munforf Silver oil caps. For around $4k with the excellent Khozmo remote control. Research where uour money is going. I have had no less then 10 conventional preamps . The only down side is speaker efficiency under 95db, and amplifier again Radu Tarta is the well known DHT builder who also Built me a a Class A Dual monoblock Pass labs clone with reference grade parts. |
Sometimes less is truly is more. I still have and sometimes put into use a thirty something year old Audible Illusions Modulus II. I recent had it re-tubed and checked over. It still performs and sounds as wonderful as ever when paired with good equipment and quality recordings. For a couple of months I had it paired with a Ayre V-5 XE Evolution and the sound, on good recordings, was beautiful - very open and detailed without being harsh and was smooth and musical without being overly full of bloom. It just sounded like music. Good music doesn't always have to cost a fortune, but keep in mind if you are planing to run RCA or Balanced. Many of the older Tubed pre-amps did not have a balanced circuit option. Good luck, Jim |
"
Hi, Nightfall, Just because you have $XXXX doesn't mean you need to spend all of it. I would investigate Don Sachs Consulting's 6SN7-based line pre-amp. Don's in Nelson, B.C. His no-frills unit starts at $1800 (US) and is based on Roy Mottram's hugely successful SP-14 line pre-amp, with better parts and 48-step volume control. Add all the bells & whistles, including a remote, even better caps (Mundorf, Dueland & Jupiters) you're looking at about $3,000. I own one and it will be my last. Don is a delight to deal with. Take the $3,000 I've saved you and re-cap your power amp(s) and upgrade the driver tubes." Thank for the information on this. First I had ever heard of Don, and what he offers. Both the preamp,and that KT88 amp look lile tremendous bargains, potentially!. I'll keep that in mind for the future JC |
Tak1, the concern regarding the rise that I cited in the SLP-05’s output impedance to 3400 ohms at 20 Hz (per Stereophile’s measurements), from considerably lower values at higher frequencies, has nothing to do with volume. That kind of impedance rise at low frequencies, btw, is not at all uncommon among tube preamps, and occurs as a result of the output coupling capacitor which the majority of tube preamps use. (The impedance of a capacitor rises as frequency decreases). The concern it raises is that in the deep bass region, especially in the bottom octave, some degree of rolloff and/or undesirable phase shifts may occur, if the load impedance is too low. A rule of thumb that will assure that no such effects occur is to apply a factor of 10 to the 20 Hz output impedance, which in this case would mean a load impedance of 34K or more. That does not mean that a problem would necessarily occur if that criterion is not met (it depends on how the output impedance **varies** as a function of frequency); it means that a problem won’t occur if that criterion is met. Also, the audibility of any rolloff or phase shifts that might occur will vary among different systems depending on the deep bass extension of the speakers that are being used. And also depending on whether or not a subwoofer is being used. As I said in my post that John (Jmcgrogan2) referred to, "30K would be somewhat marginal (or worse) for use with several of the preamps that have been suggested." Personally, I prefer to avoid component choices that might be marginal in some way, when good choices are available which don’t have that concern. Also, John makes a good point about the fact that the benefits of the SLP-05’s balanced architecture would not be fully taken advantage of if it is used with an amp providing only unbalanced inputs and having an unbalanced internal signal path. Regards, -- Al |
I'd like to respond to jmcgrogan2's post (my computer will not let me cut & paste in this forum). The Cary SLP-05 output impedence, per their published specification is 400 ohms. The input impedenace of my MAC MC 302 is 22k ohms (much less than the "OP's" 50k and certainly less than the manual's 30k), While the MAC's 22k ohms are perhaps less than desirable for ease of "driviing" the amp, the SLP-05 has NO problems at all and I've got more power than I could ever use .... volume levels remain well below the half-way mark on the SLP's volume control pot and that is VERY loud. |
I was speaking with Jeff Wells of Wells Audio, at length, earlier tonight. Turns out that he has two preamps coming out this summer which he said would produce world class sound paired with my existing Wells power amplifier. I think, at this point, I'll probably wait to check those out before I purchase anything else in terms of a preamp. At least barring some miraculous deal on one of those discussed here. My sincere thanks to everyone for their advice and recommendations, all information is greatly appreciated. I've done a great deal of research based on the input and am well armed for making a preamp decision when I pull the trigger. |
You may want to take a look at Decware in East Peoria IL. There is a very good website. Steve has an exceptional preamp that is reasonably priced. All hand made with point to point wiring and lifetime warranty although you will probably never need to use it. Also many of his amps have a volume control and are very good without using a preamp. Good luck! |
Hi, Nightfall, Just because you have $XXXX doesn't mean you need to spend all of it. I would investigate Don Sachs Consulting's 6SN7-based line pre-amp. Don's in Nelson, B.C. His no-frills unit starts at $1800 (US) and is based on Roy Mottram's hugely successful SP-14 line pre-amp, with better parts and 48-step volume control. Add all the bells & whistles, including a remote, even better caps (Mundorf, Dueland & Jupiters) you're looking at about $3,000. I own one and it will be my last. Don is a delight to deal with. Take the $3,000 I've saved you and re-cap your power amp(s) and upgrade the driver tubes. |
I agree totally with jjj666. It is extremely difficult or should I say almost impossible to determine an answer to your question without all factors taken into consideration always a concern of mine in these "best of" type threads, too many variables. I agree the amp is going to really be the thing to look at in addressing your query and the preamp should be considered in how it might mate with the amp, just MHO. What you are getting here for the most part is "what is my favorite preamp" cause some of the ones I'm familiar with listed are not what you are asking for.
|
I'd look at the Baekert Labs preamps in all price ranges they are giant killers. Bob Baekert has a patent on a new power supply, worked at CJ for years, and the many reviews of the Rhumba and Rhythm have been very positive. Plus, I understand they may be warranting their tubes for 10 years! They are Audiogon. Let Andy know you corresponded with William. Some people like them, some people don't. As for the other brands mentioned above, many of those are in my repair shop all the time.Some are not. Why do you think people are selling them? I'll pass on Deal. |
This post is a great vehicle for people to pump their favorite preamps, which is great. However, to actually reach your objectives, you might need a wider view. Two points I'd make: (1) In my humble experience, you can only get so much of the tube feel out of the preamp part of the equation. It's there, but you get the real tubey bang for your buck out of the power amp part of the equation. So you might consider that budget applied to a tube power amp instead. This is where the real liquid turbiness comes in, I have found. Or consider a full-tube integrated. OR a tube input stage hybrid power amp with a SS output stage. All of those may give you the full tube experience more than a preamp alone. (2) I don't mean to say that you don't get good tubiness out of a preamp. But if you go this way, save a substantial portion of the budget for the tubes. The hardware is obviously important too, but if you really want to enjoy the whole experience, you'll need some nice new old stock options to play with -- Mullard, Telefunken, the usual suspects, etc. There are some nice options at Upscale Audio, and Kevin Deal may be able to guide you to both hardware and tubes, but your mileage may vary with Kevin. Good luck! |
There are several in this chain who have pointed you in the direction of Cary's SLP-05 ..... well, I'm hear to tell you they are right. I'm curious as to if all the folks recommending the Cary SLP-05 have read this comment from the OP: The amplifier that I will be using the preamp with is superb, but not well known, which is why I failed to mention it earlier. It is the Wells Audio Innamorata, which is single ended with an amplifier input impedance of 50k ohms. I'm not sure that the SLP-05 is any better than the SLP-98 if you can not run it in balanced mode. Not to mention the point that Al (almarg) pointed out regarding the SLP-05's output impedance: While the description of the Innamorata at the Wells Audio website as well as in various reviews indicate its input impedance as 50K, its manual indicates 30K. I don’t know which number is correct, of course, but 30K would be somewhat marginal (or worse) for use with several of the preamps that have been suggested. For example, Stereophile measured the 20 Hz output impedance of the Lamm LL2 at 3.3K, and the 20 Hz output impedance of the Cary SLP-05 at 3.4K, both of which would be just barely acceptable in conjunction with a 30K load, IMO. |
Hey Nightfall; As you know, there are so many options available today it can make you crazy, but each of us must speak only from direct experience. There are several in this chain who have pointed you in the direction of Cary's SLP-05 ..... well, I'm hear to tell you they are right. I purchased one in September '16 and it replaced a McIntosh (MAC) C-46. Use whatever parameter you wish; transparency, soundstage/depth, detail/resolution without the etchiness, focus, transient dynamics and weight ... and all of this with that "warmth & liquidity" you seek. All of these things improved with the Cary and in most, improved significantly. The gains were (are) anything but subtle. And the guy who partnered his Cary with an Esoteric SS amp .... he's got the right idea .... my Cary is wired to my MAC MC 302 stereo amp. Can't say what is it about a tubed pre and SS power amp .... but the marriage is truly glorious. Are there other pre amps that will fit the bill? Sure, but from experience I can tell you that your journey does not have to be that long. Give the Cary serious consideration. |
Strange that the Coincident Statement Linestage isn’t on the list. For nearly half your price range for a second hand unit, this is one of the most direct tube preamplifier on the market: 101D triode (the Western Electric Replica PSvane) directly heated, external power supply, not any other active component on the signal way. It use some japaneese occ mumetal transformers in and out for the volume control, symetrical and non symetrical connections. New it is on your price range, and the transformers are actually better than some years ago. Use it with the best A class solid state power amplifier(s) you can find (that would give you the hot touch, drive , rich timbre and transparency). The preamp will give high level transparency, resolution, fludity, air, soundstage deepness. The Ypsilon PST100 may be a good upgrade to the Coincident Statement Linestage in the same phylosophy of transparency and musical involvment, but the price is a bit different.... I don’t really agree with some that say we can’t have resolution and beauty at the same time. A real high resolution may be partnered with beauty, if the audio gears are stressless, but not bottlenecks (and the room / speakers partnership effective). In this price range, it would be a shame to have bottlenecks. And for me, a too cold but high resolution solidstate preamp is... a bottleneck as it fail to give any musical implication. But of course, a chain of gain stages like dac, preamp and power amp, are and addition of works on the modulation wave, and an opportunity to try to give some extra heart touching capabilities, that make the music a bit extra-ordinary although the scheme and component may keep the transparency and resolution as high as possible. Of course, no doubt that there are many good preamps in the world, sure I would be happy with many preamps that are spoken about here... everybody have his own pearl on mind... different of the neighbour one.... Regards, Nico. |
In my 45 year of searching for SQ improvement, I personally recommend Don Sachs preamp, which you can obtain for under $2K. It is based on 6SN7 tubes and it is much more revealing and detailed than the Modwright preamp that it replaced, which itself was outstanding. Check out the Forum for my review of it and comments of other owners. Here is Don Sachs' website: http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/custom%20line%20stage.html BTW, anybody that uses 6SN7 tubes in their gear that hasn't tried the Shuguang Treasure CV181-Z tubes is not hearing all that their equipment is capable of rendering. To my ears, and those of Don Sachs, they better all the NOS tubes around, save for the uber pricey ones. They are robust and appear to have some longevity. Try them and I am sure you will agree. |
You may look down your nose, but I got rid of an Ayon pre and kept an Audible Illusions Modulus 3a. It's very liquid, transparent, detailed etc. and you can get one for $2K or less. It's driving an MC275 VI (two mono), Maggie 1.7s and a Hsu uls15 mk II and I'm often startled by the presence, detail and timbre of jazz music, especially vocals. |
Just curious, what caused you to leave the Model 6's behind, and what did you replace them with? The never ending quest for audio nirvana. I believe that I replaced the Model 6's with a BAT VK-75SE that I then had modified by Bob Backert of RHB Sound Dezign. The BAT is also long gone. I tend to vacillate between tubes and SS amps. This time last year was a VAC tube amp. This year, so far, it's Pass Labs SS amps. Who knows what the future holds? I've been married to the same woman for 33 years now. However, when it comes to audio equipment, I'm not the "settling down" type. I like to play the field. ;^) |
Not a ton of experience with preamps in your price range (which would be in the $10-15K) retail range, I agree with Al on the Herron. A fantastic linestage and the best I've had in my system by far. Super quiet, very organic and musical. To my ears it may not have as much "tube warmth" as you are looking for but that does not mean it is at all sterile sounding--quite the opposite. Just very true to the tone and harmonics of real music without added coloration. Plus you get Keith's unparalleled support and expertise! |
jmcgrogan25,804 posts04-06-2017 6:00pm I hope your Rowland Model 6's are still serving you well! Actually, the Model 6's are long gone, but not forgotten. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/rowland-model-6-monoblocks-my-thoughts The Model 6's were some terrific amps, without question the best Class A/B amps I've ever heard. I have heard good things of Wells Audio, but I've never had a chance to hear any of their products. I'll be interested to see what preamp you wind up mating with that amp. Have you asked Jeff Wells for any preamp recommendation? Just left Jeff a voice mail message about that very subject. He's a great guy, incredibly knowledgeable and helpful. We've had quite a few conversations about the amp. Just curious, what caused you to leave the Model 6's behind, and what did you replace them with? |
Just came across this in a Stereophile review of a VTL preamp I thought worth looking into, and it also has me very interested based on the description of the sound. Again, though I would, have to wait for a used unit to appear, in the interest of finances. And not sure how often these surface. " The VTL's midrange—voluptuously rich, detailed, and liquid—made it a natural match for well-recorded voices. My favorite Beatles recording of solo voice, musically and sonically, is John Lennon's soulful rendition of Arthur Alexander's "Anna (Go to Him)," from Please Please Me (CD, Parlophone). The TL-5.5 II brought out every low-level dynamic nuance in Lennon's vocal style; even his raspy upper register was bathed in a golden glow. The VTL's midrange, however, was revealing and uncolored enough to differentiate among the sound qualities of various recordings." Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/vtl-tl-55-series-ii-signature-line-preamplifier#rjmRYVEXzjebYRpv.... |
almarg, thanks for including that quote on the Herron. I've obviously heard of them but do not know a great deal about the company other than hearing many positives, in general. By that description, it certainly does sound like something I need to look into. I couldn't afford it brand new though, I probably shouldn't truly go above $5500.00. Hopefully these appear used from time to time. |
P.S. to my previous post, re the Herron preamp. Karl Lozier’s review of an earlier version of the VTSP-3A states as follows, as quoted at the Herron website: The fact that it has a tad ... more bass fullness, richness and power in the mid to upper bass is only a part of overall experience and does tend to reveal its vacuum tube heritage. The audibly extended high frequency response has its own attraction at the same time being silky smooth and sweet while revealing even more inner detail. That is a really tough balancing act for an audio designer to successfully accomplish.Sounds very consistent with the sonic traits you indicated you are looking for. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
While the description of the Innamorata at the Wells Audio website as well as in various reviews indicate its input impedance as 50K, its manual indicates 30K. I don’t know which number is correct, of course, but 30K would be somewhat marginal (or worse) for use with several of the preamps that have been suggested. For example, Stereophile measured the 20 Hz output impedance of the Lamm LL2 at 3.3K, and the 20 Hz output impedance of the Cary SLP-05 at 3.4K, both of which would be just barely acceptable in conjunction with a 30K load, IMO. I’d have even greater concerns about the unspecified output impedances of the Shindo products. For example, Stereophile measured the output impedance of the Aurieges phono preamp as rising to 16.5K (!) at 20 Hz, which would not be suitable even in conjunction with a 50K load IMO. Also, the Atmasphere preamps that were suggested would probably not be optimal choices for use with the Innamorata, as they are fully balanced and provide RCA outputs only as an option. A specific suggestion I would add to those that have been mentioned is the Herron VTSP-3A, at $6550. I haven’t heard it myself, but members whose opinions I have considerable respect for have been very pleased with it, and the extremely positive experiences I and many others here have had with Herron’s VTPH-2 phono stage, and in dealing with Keith Herron himself (who is a treasure to deal with), lead me to suggest it. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
I hope your Rowland Model 6's are still serving you well! Actually, the Model 6's are long gone, but not forgotten. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/rowland-model-6-monoblocks-my-thoughts The Model 6's were some terrific amps, without question the best Class A/B amps I've ever heard. I have heard good things of Wells Audio, but I've never had a chance to hear any of their products. I'll be interested to see what preamp you wind up mating with that amp. Have you asked Jeff Wells for any preamp recommendation? |
