As I have pointed out many times in the past, the impedance curve of an ESL is not the same as an efficiency curve. With many box speakers the two are the same- higher impedances usually representing resonance, usually a driver in a box. (If one were to apply this idea to an ESL, it is easy to see how one would think that you need lots of current to drive those low impedances. In a nutshell, it does not work that way with ESLs; they simply are not the same technology!) ESLs are generally not in a box; their impedance curve is a result of a capacitive function unrelated to resonance. The result is that the speaker generally needs a constant power characteristic out of the amp rather than a constant voltage characteristic in order to obtain flat frequency response. Constant voltage is that quality that allows an amplifier to double power as impedance is halved (and will generally result in brightness in ESLs). Constant power is that quality where power remains constant regardless of impedance. There is more at this link: http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.phpWhile the Power Paradigm pretty well went the way decades ago in mid- and lo-fi situations, it is still very much alive and well in high end. Horns, ESLs, magnetic planars, single-driver full range speakers and various conventional box speakers represent examples of speakers made to conform to Power Paradigm rules. |
Well guys I beg to differ big time, I have Martin Logan Monoliths with the new aluminium vapour deposited panels, and they have a very similar impedance curve that the Ethos have being 1ohm or less in the upper mids/highs.
When ever big tube amps that I have owned or mates have bought around, be it push pull or single ended toplogy are used to power them, yes they sound "nice", but there is a distinct softening in the upper mid/treble region with a big lack of presents and dynamics.
Then swapping over and using my very stable massive high current solid state amps, everyone then hears what's missing during these savage impedance drops, it like someone has opened up a window to the upper ranges and the detail/dynamics that comes with it.
This statement is what a Stereophile reviewer found, with the ML Montis (which have an impedance character almost identical to the OP's ML Ethos speakers) when driven with a highly regarded Audioplax 88 tube amp, .
"This is why Robert Deutsch found that his Audiopax amplifier sounded too soft and lacking in definition."
Cheers George |
Uh, George, please read the thread through (beginning with the title of the thread) rather than just jumping in in the end. First, this thread is about what tube amps can be used and is not about solid state. As explained earlier: Martin-Logans have a very low impedance at high frequencies as you know- we went through that early on. To use any tube amp with them, a set of ZEROs is recommended http://www.zeroimpedance.comThis eliminates the rather ridiculously low impedance (0.5 ohm) high frequency problem. Once this issue is dealt with your comments are rendered moot as the ZEROs level the playing field. |
In the several years that I've participated in these forums these are some of the most comprehensive and cogent responses that I've read. Even though some explanations are stretching my ability I greatly appreciate them and thank you for your willingness to share it.
The pink noise test revealed something that I otherwise may have continued to overlook as an important factor. I described the phenomenon of moving back from the speakers toward my listening position while listening to out-of-phase pink noise (actually, any out-of-phase frequencies) noting that the sound moved incrementally to the right. If I change my listening position to about 5 feet closer to the speakers, then, this migration of sound becomes less perceptible. I know that room acoustics is important but is it possible that it could be so dramatic?
It was pointed out that my system is anything but reference grade or state of the art but, unless I'm missing something, I fail to see why this is pertinent to my inquiry. I know enough about my setup to realize this and if one couples this with the fact that I don't have a dedicated listening room, the challenges are many. Hence, my requests for help.
As an aside, the problem with certain frequencies is little different from when I was using a Rogue Audio Sphinx amp with ML Odysseys. I made the change of amps about 8 months ago and switched speakers only a couple of months ago. It now seems slightly worse for those offending frequencies but, because I used the Odysseys for about 13 years, I may still be adjusting. Also likely is that the Ethos is supposedly more revealing of what's going on upstream in the system.
To answer one question regarding the comparison of live versus recorded music, especially using the piano for reference, we have a piano and, yes, the same notes either recorded or live create the same discomfort. This fact, of course leads me to the conclusion that it is not a component of my system that is the culprit for at least this issue.
Anyway, when I get some help to access the back of my equipment, I'll remove the equalizers to eliminate that variable before I continue with anymore experimenting. |
Sorry Ralph, but Uh, Uh. Autoformers are a band-aid fix only, after the owner has purchased the wrong amp to begin with, they cause more problems than they fix.
Cheers George
|
George .... IMO, audio is about compromises. I just bought a DEQX PreMate to correct room effects and improve my speakers time coherence. The device is inserted between my linestage and amp. I am **NOT** happy about inserting any artifact into the signal path, least of all an active component like the PreMATE.
Having said that, the PreMATE adds more than it takes. Same point with Ralph's suggestion on using ZERO's. I think ML is crazy to design a STAT with .5 OHM impedance in the upper frequencies. Why not just short the amp??? If ZEROs can help, even if at some cost, the trade-off may be worth it.
Just sayin'. |
Always best to get the right amp to start with, instead of putting a band-aid fix between it and the speakers.
The most questionable part of a tube amp that uses an output transformer, why put another one in between it and the speaker, if it wasn't the right one to start with.
For the OP's speakers for a tube amp to be a great match, it should have a real 2ohm transformer tap even 1ohm for these. For it not to start behaving like a tone control.
Cheers George
|
George, I agree with you in principle. But to my knowledge, there are not many tube amps with 2 ohm taps out there ... at least at the quality level of Ralph's Atmasphere or my ARC Ref 150.
I respectively repeat what I said above. Maybe the ZERO artifact is not a perfect fix, but the sonic benefits may well outweigh the sonic costs. |
May I ask how much power you need to produce music above 10khz?
I have a couple of charts that show that the only instrument capable of producing fundamental frequencies above 5khz is a pipe organ. A piccolo's highest fundamental comes in at 4khz, piano 4.5khz, violin 3-4khz and guitar 1khz. It is my understanding that second, third, etc. harmonics are well down in decibels from the fundamentals.
I know that overtones are an important part of music, but as a practical matter, how much power do you need at 20khz? |
Tomcy6
It's not the power, it's trying to maintain a flat frequency response between 20hz to 20khz, amps with weak current delivery will sag with these wild impedances that the OP's ML Ethos speakers have regardless of listening level.
And to try and fix this by putting basically another output transformer between the speaker and the tube amps own output transformer is just a band-aid fix.
It should be the right amp to handle those .8ohm impedances to start with.
Cheers George |
OK. I don't want to complicate the discussion between George and Ralph about power ,voltage and current.
I'm just wondering why an amp that doesn't double down at 4 ohms and again at 2 ohms can't deliver the small amounts of energy needed for a speaker to produce the low sound pressure levels (loudness) of the overtones that occur at 20khz. It seems that speakers would require very low amounts of whatever form of electricity is appropriate, be it called power, volts or current, to reproduce the overtones at 20khz. Does the .5 ohm impedance at 20khz make it just about impossible for an amp to provide energy to a speaker?
Maybe this isn't the time to add this to the discussion, if that's the case, I'll butt out. |
Look at Stereophile tests (12 & 13 posts back)on tube amps into their simulated speaker load, and what happens to the frequency response, and then magnify that many times for the OP's Ethos speaker, as they are more severe than the simulated load.
Here is a Parasound amp that can do current, note how with the same simulated load frequency response this amp hardly differs from just an 8ohm resistive load. Compare it now to the tube one and then multiply the difference by quite a few times, because of the OP's speakers more severe load characteristics.
[url]http://www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-jc-1-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements[/url]
Cheers George |
The Music Reference RM-200 has 1, 2, 4, and 8 ohm tap configurations. Although it is a hybrid amp, in this case the input is solid state, while the output is tube driven. |
Looks like Clio09 may have the right tube amp for the OP's Ethos speakers, should work well either off the 1ohm or 2ohm tap and maybe not sound like a fixed tone control, and only one transformer in the way.
And you can see it in the second graph working off the 1ohm tap, only slightly deviates of dead flat when driving the simulated speaker load, maybe it will be a bit worse with the .8ohm of the OP's Ethos.
[url]http://www.stereophile.com/content/music-reference-rm-200-mkii-power-amplifier-measurements[/url]
Whether or not it will have enough watts off the 1 or 2 ohm tap is another story, this will depend on how loud the OP likes to listen, because the lower the tap impedance the less wattage is available, but higher current and lower output impedance (higher damping factor).
Cheers George |
The ZERO is not a band-aid. It is a problem solver, and very effective- usually removing coloration rather than adding it. There are many accolades on the zeroimpedance.com website and the product has been around now for nearly 20 years.
The issue we are dealing with here is that Martin-Logan recognized that solid state amps dominate the market, and they wanted to be part of that- because it sells more speakers. So they made their impedances extremely low.
The problem is that ESLs have the same efficiency at all frequencies. If you combine that with an amplifier that can double power as George suggests, the result is brightness. If the amp can otherwise drive the load but not double power, the tonality will be correct.
The ZERO allows this with many tube amps which otherwise would not be able to drive the half-ohm load which is what a Martin-Logan is at 20KHz. Sure, there is not much energy up there, but if you have too much it gets painful. |
I say a Mcintosh MC275. That is what I ran with my martin logan sl3's, and it sounded very nice. |
"If you combine that with an amplifier that can double power as George suggests, the result is brightness"
Popycock Ralph, it is the opposite with not only with ML ESL's but others as well and you get dullness with an amp that can't keep "keep it up" current wise.
Why then advocate the use the Zero as a bandaid fix with your amps on these sort of speakers when getting the right amp is clearly obvious, even a rare tube amp with output taps of 1ohm 2ohm that Clio posted designed to drive this sort of load.
Just listen or read the reviews of ESL's with upper range impedances like the OP's ML Ethos speakers have when driven with amps that "can't get it up" (current wise), dullness or similar are the words used all to often.
Cheers George |
George, Its obvious you've not actually heard the ZEROs work.
Too bright does not work any better than too dull- both are colorations.
The ZEROs are an excellent solution for tube amps that are being asked to drive speakers that they simply would not work with otherwise. I think more have been sold to ARC owners than our amps, FWIW. A lot of people want to use tubes with Martin-Logans to calm them down. |
Ralph, please don't assume.
I have had a pair in my house that were given to me, and have tried them on different occasions, and have always said with amps and speakers that are a mismatched they can be made to work together, but are just a bandaid fix, until the right amp is used.
And instead of spending the $600 odd dollars on them as an interim fix, put the money towards the right amp for the speakers being used, or the other way, change the speakers to suit the amp being used. Without having to purchase autoformers and have them in the way.
Cheers George
|
What are the signs of an "over-damped" setup with the ZEROs? Does it run an OTL amplifier harder the higher the multiplier?
I run them naked at the 3x connection between a Joule Electra VZN-80 and Dali Mentor 6's (flat 6 ohm curve).
If this is a band-aid, cut me more. It sounds like bliss to me. |
George, you are simply not credible. I think you are simply trolling this thread and me as you typically do. |
I've used electrostatics for over 35 years, all of which except for one pair of Acoustats have been ML (Prodigy, SL3, CLS, Odyssey, now the Ethos) and have been aware of their impedance characteristics for most of that time. However, during much of the early part of that interval I thought that simply adding sufficient power would accommodate potential problems associated with that issue. I also thought, as do many of us undereducated hobbyists, that tube amps are, out of hand, naturally "warmer" than solid state. I was wrong, of course, and have come some distance from that time, discovering, for one thing, that the brightest amp I've ever owned was an integrated tube unit that I almost immediately removed from my system.
In reading these posts and doing the research they've inspired, I think now that my original post should have read "Best amp for ESL's" period. I shouldn't have started out assuming that tubes were the only or even my best solution. In the past I've used multiple DAC's to deal with my stated issues and for at least one source, achieved a significant improvement. Now, as if my challenges were not already enough, we're discussing significant issues related to the tube/ESL route that challenge my thinking even more.
I think my approach, then, has been somewhat backward; I bought amplification equipment based on good reviews and upgraded my speakers based on my familiarity with a certain technology and expected them to meld into a superior system. Fortunately, for most of my music this turned out to be pretty much the case and resulted in what might be the best setup I've ever put together except for these issues of occasional harshness associated with certain frequencies. Because these problems seem to be primarily a result of my age related hearing deterioration I feel now like I'm chasing my tail looking for some magic in more equipment changes.
Anyway, I'm going to reintroduce tube DAC's back into the setup and see if that helps but, whether or not it does, I will still be following this thread and continuing research until I get comfortable with a final decision about equipment choices |
Please don't accuse me of trolling on these forums Ralph, it's fact and that's that. I'm just keeping things honest here, in that Autoformers are not the magic bullet that you portray they are.
And that your better off saving the $700 odd dollars that they cost and getting the right amp or speakers so things do match up.
Autoformers are at their the most advantageous when used with OTL amps on speakers they can't drive, should ring bells on who's doing what, on these forums.
Quote:
"The most important thing to remember about the Autoformers is: if there is no significant impedance mismatch, then there will be no real benefit to using the Autoformers."
I'll add to that not that the reviewer would say it, there will actually be a detriment to the sound if used in the above situation.
Cheers George
|
@Broadstone ... you may have caught some of my posts on another thread about the DEQX product. I mention it here because it may be a worthwhile tool for one to throw into their audio toolkit.
On the one hand, I am *NOT* thrilled that my DEQX PreMATE is inserted between my linestage and amp. It *IS* an artifact that must have some effect on the signal integrity. But having said that, the sonic benefits of the DEQX far out-weight its sonic detriments.
I mention the DEQX here because it might help smooth out some of the harshness that some say they hear with their ESLs ... heck any speaker. No ... the DEQX will not fix a serious amp/speaker impedance mismatch problem. But it will definitely help make a pair of very good speakers sound much better.
Plus, of course, there's the added benefit that the DEQX will correct, or at least mitigate, time incoherence issues with one's speakers. I surmise that ML ESLs are probably time coherent with respect to the acoustic spectrum handled by the STAT panels. But there might be some time incoherence between the woofers and STAT panels.
ZERO comments (pun intended) on the benefits (or not) of using ZERO autofomers. Gotta tell ya though ... .5 ohms in the high treble region .... not for my ARC Ref 150. Wouldn't even try it. No sir. Hard to understand how any amp (tube or SS) can even drive a near short. |
Broadstone, you may want to try replacing the DBX graphic EQs with a parametric equalizer - one that acts only on a specific range of frequencies (one sets a mid-point and width, as well as height) and try using it to attenuate the frequency range of your sensitivity/tinnitus. Less stimulus to excite the ringing. I do not know if that is an accepted therapeutic principal, but suspect it might work out better than boosting lost frequencies. |
Bifwynne, yes, I have read your posts and have reviewed the PreMATE as a potential fix worth consideration. I had the same concerns re putting additional components in the stream when I added EQ's to address my hearing issues. It may be an affront to the sensibilities of many audiophiles but the overall improvement to my personal listening enjoyment was significant, sort of like having room sized hearing aids. The PreMATE's price is a bit of a stretch for me, though, so for now I'll just keep it on my list for future consideration. |
Sqlsavior, thanks for the suggestion which is similar to others I received several months ago. The first EQ I tried was a parametric and I had a problem learning to use it. The graphic EQ is a bit simpler to understand and its control parameters are consistent with the kind of control that I thought I needed which is the main reason I chose that route. I've found, though, that the proper setup of either is much more involved than anticipated. |
"On the one hand, I am *NOT* thrilled that my DEQX PreMATE is inserted between my linestage and amp. It *IS* an artifact that must have some effect on the signal integrity. But having said that, the sonic benefits of the DEQX far out-weight its sonic detriments."
I understand the simple signal path argument and tend to think that way myself but practically one could also argue that everything inserted between the source and speakers has some effect. All that matters is that the good outweigh the bad. It is true that the more integration points for a novice end user to deal with , the more chances that things might not work as well as possible. But with well matched high quality gear all designed by pros in the interest of good/better sound, I would not worry too much. HEck some folks even claim that adding magnets in the right places will spice things up in a positive way. |
Also I would add that digital signal processing is a very pwoerful tool but also is a huge variable. What matters most is that it be done right to address the task at hand. There are many ways to to it wrong and only a few ways to do it right. If done right, to meet the goals at hand in each case, the benefits should greatly outweigh any disadvantages of inserting it into the signal path. |
Regarding the Zeros I think the best technical classification for what it does is an (impedance) "adapter". If you need an adapter, you need one. IF you don't, you don't. If gear is matched well to start, you don't. If you do, then using one might produce better or worse results than the alternative case by case. It all depends. Were it me, I would not design my system up front to require any adapters. But there are cases where it might make sense. Like most things there is no 100% right or wrong. The right solution always depends on the problem at hand. |
George, your comments fit the classic definition of trolling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29The fact is you have not used a set of ZEROs at your house. If you had, your comments would be in line with that of the experience of hundreds of people that use them. One can only conclude that you have never used them at all or are coincidentally the lone voice in the wilderness- Occam's Razor suggests otherwise. Your use of imitation of my posts as a means of belittling is another example of trolling. The intent behind the text is the issue. As best I can make out, you just want to make me wrong and it gets tiresome, which also seems to be your intent. If you don't want me to accuse you of trolling you will have to stop doing it. So far you have yet to actually show the math that supports that the ZERO does not work or that ESLs have an efficiency curve that is the same as their impedance curve making them an ideal match with transistors. If you can do that then we have a discussion. |
As I said Ralph, I have had a pair of Zero Autoformers given to me, and used them a few times and regarded them as banaid fix for mismatched amp/speakers combiations.
As for your continued accusations of me trolling you (again popycock) and if I were it's better than being a shill.
The OP's wants to buy an amp for his ML Ethos speakers, why would he buy an amp that is not suited and then buy Autoformers as a bandaid fix to make them compatible.
Cheers George
|
FWIW, all very good ML demos I have heard over the years have been with very good SS amplification. Classe, Krell and that ilk. I don't recall any with tube amplification so can't comment there. Ml does not seem like a company that would design their gear to work best with tube amps. That's not to say that many tube amps might not sound quite fine as well. |
Mapman ... .5 ohm in high treble is a near short. Hard to believe that ANY amp could drive clean power into that kind of load. But look ... if Ralph (Atmasphere) and other smart guys say that MLs work well with the right amp, then so be it. Personally, I wouldn't hook my amp up to those speakers with such a crazy impedance curve.
Right now, I am interested in auditioning a pair of Magico S-5s. Take a look at the NRC specs on these beasts here:
http://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1043:nrc-measurements-magico-s5-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
Low impedance ... yes. Nominally 4 to 6 ohms. But flat ... really flat. I surmise that my amp could drive the S-5s very nicely off the 4 ohm tap. The distortion figures and FR specs are unbelievable. Would probably still need my DEQX to correct for my room problems and to straighten out the high order crossover/time coherence issues.
If I sprung for the S5s, I'd probably dump my subwoofer and just go with the S5s flat out. Biggest issue is with my wife. |
|
If I'm not mistaken, power demands increase exponentially with lower frequency, so a .5 ohm impedance at high frequencies is much less problematic than when typically found in the bass region.
I just know what I've seen and heard over the years with ML speakers in general. They sound top notch with top notch SS amps. Relatively few ML owners use tube amps I would think. Tube amps have never been in the picture.
Yes Ralph is a very smart guy, but he is also a tube amp vendor and well qualified to defend his turf. |
George ... right you are. The capacitive phase angle north of 2K Hz is less of a concern than the negative phase angle below 75 Hz, especially coupled with the low impedance.
Yup ... I have a non-techie familiarity with EPDR. Didn't click on your link, but here's a great article on the subject:
http://www.stereophile.com/reference/707heavy
The bottom line is I'll never know for sure how my amp mates with the S-5s until I arrange a realistic audition.
One other positive factor in my favor is that my amp has pretty robust power supply ... 1040 joules. Presumably, ... hopefully, ... that kind of PS muscle can smooth over demands for current in the bass region. But as just stated, I won't know for sure until I plug the S-5s into my rig. |
Bruce (Bifwynne), +1 to your post just above, and to George's reference to EPDR and his characterization of the S-5 as a challenging load. Regarding the on-going disagreements about the suitability of tube amps for driving Martin-Logans and other electrostatics, perhaps we should just declare an impasse at this point. Also, I would refer those interested to this thread, in which all of the present protagonists, and many other knowledgeable folks as well, argued the same issues over the course of a three-page thread. OK, so much for non-partisanship :-) In that three-page thread I would nominate as the tie-breaking perspective the posts by member Frogman, who as a long-time professional classical and jazz musician, as well as a highly experienced audiophile, unquestionably has one of the most impressive combinations extant of audiophile and musical backgrounds. Best regards, -- Al |
Yes Bruce and Al, I'm trying to find a Phase Angle graph on the OP's Ethos to see if they are even worse for an amp to look at than just the impedance graph shows they are.
Cheers George
|
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George ... I concur that the impedance and phase angle traces between 3K and 10K Hz look rough. But I suspect an amp will not be asked to deliver tons of power in that spectrum.
By contrast, I think the "power region" will be south of 1K Hz and maybe even below that. That is where I'd be focusing attention. The impedance curve in the lower bass goes off the chart. It's almost an open circuit.
Are there amps out there that can really drive these beasts. Btw, inserting a Zero would seem to exacerbate the "open circuit" look of the impedance trace in the lower bass.
These are tough hombres. |
"Relatively few ML owners use tube amps I would think. Tube amps have never been in the picture."
Actually, that's not true. I've seen many ML systems that were powered by tubes. Here's a few examples.
My VAC 30/30 had no problem driving my SL-3's. A good friend of mine is very into vintage gear, and have seen him power his CLS's with many different tube amps, even SET's (I know that's not the perfect match, but I thought it worth mentioning because the amps were very low power.), A dealer I know well sells ML as his main line of speakers and always had them paired with Jadis and Sonic Frontiers tube amps. I was invited to a staff meeting after hours at a B&M store that I did a lot of business with, for a new product demo (Prodigy) with and Gayle Sanders, and he set them up with an ARC VT-100. One of the magazines, TAS I think, put together a recommended system consisting of an ARC VT-50 and the Aerius or SL3 (can't remember as it was a long time ago.). Singer demoed the SL2's with an ARC Classic 60 and CJ 11-A.
I could keep going on and on with the examples. But I think pairing ML and tubes is much more common than you think. |
Broadstone,
"To answer one question regarding the comparison of live versus recorded music, especially using the piano for reference, we have a piano and, yes, the same notes either recorded or live create the same discomfort. This fact, of course leads me to the conclusion that it is not a component of my system that is the culprit for at least this issue."
Looking at the above quote, the one thing that stands out is the fact that you have the same problem when you hear real instruments live. I think there's a very good chance that you will not fix this problem with equipment. Think of the live piano as the best or perfect stereo system there is. There's no where else to go. If you want to continue to listen to music, you may have to go in a non audiophile direction. Maybe just something for low volume background listening, or something similar. I wish that I was able to suggest some better options for you, but I can't. Hopefully, someone else will come up with something. |
I think Clio09 came up with the answer if the OP really wants a tube amp, the Music Reference RM-200.
In that it has 1ohm or 2ohm speaker taps, there is a proviso though, will it still have the watts to get to a reasonable level when driven off these taps, the wattage goes down the lower the impedance tap is used.
Cheers George
|
I may have started this thread under the false pretext that I have a strong desire to switch from solid state when what I really needed was help with certain specific issues thinking that tubes may be an appropriate path toward that goal. What I'm learning from the resulting discussions, especially in consideration of the range of opinions from experts regarding how best to use tube amplication with ESL's, is that my most practical choice is to stay with solid state.
Although my system may not be "state of the art" as was pointed out early on this thread, it is one of the best sounding setups I've had in my home for over 50 years so I'm generally pretty happy. For these other concerns I'm going to reinstall DAC's at my two primary sources, play around some more with the equalizers and worry about upgrading amplification later. |
Zd,
Well, there you go then. I don't doubt it can be done with the right amp and sound very good. I'll keep my eyes open for a chance to hear ML and tube amps myself. |
Hello Broadstone
I own NAT SE2SE 211 tube amps and personally these have been an incredible match for my Soundlabs. I feel like screaming from my rooftop how lucky I feel to have FINALLY found the amp that for me makes my babies sing. Now this did not happen overnight. I have owned my Soundlabs since 1999 with no modifications,no new panels and no updated backplate and I can tell you if you get the"right" amp,power cords,interconnects or whatever to make electrostatic speakers sing you won't listen critically anymore. It takes time and it make not happen very soon but don't give up. I really don't think many who own electrostatic speakers have really heard what they can do if "everything" is right. In other words, they just "settle" for the so-called best big name instead of trying to get them to sing correctly. I passionate about my babies because I am transported to another realm. I am not here often because I am "listening" no need to buy anything else or debate. |
Chuckie, do you have the new backpanels for your Sound Labs? They make the speaker easier to drive and better sounding with all amplifiers. |
"01-22-15: Mapman
Zd,
Well, there you go then. I don't doubt it can be done with the right amp and sound very good. I'll keep my eyes open for a chance to hear ML and tube amps myself."
OK, but how? If the OP can't listen to live acoustical instruments like a piano, what can be done? At first, we thought the problem may be an issue of timbre. Obviously, that can't be the case because you can't get better timbre than the actual instrument itself. And as a general rule, high end audio strives to reproduce that piano as accurately as possible.
Just to be clear, my last post on using tube amps with ML speakers was just to give actual examples that not only is it possible, I've seen ML themselves do it. I'm not saying tubes are the answer here. Given the type of problem the OP has, all the amps I can think of that may somehow address the issue are all solid state. For me personally, I approach a problem by focusing on the end results needed. I love tube gear, but I won't buy something just because it uses tubes. It has to be the right solution, or you just make the problem bigger.
So, going back to the problem at hand, what is the end result that we are looking for here? That's where I'm at a loss. If we don't know where we need to end up, and if its achievable, I don't see how we can fix anything. But that's just me. There's a lot of smart people here, so I'm hoping to be proven wrong. |
Beside the tube amp Clio09 came up with Music Reference RM-200, this tube amp also has 1ohm 2ohm 4ohm 8ohm and 16ohm speaker taps, Audio Research VT200, and it has more wattage to start with so volume level may not be as critical as the Music Reference RM-200, I bet there are some more out there as well. http://www.arcdb.ws/VT200/VT200.htmlCheers George |
