Audioconnection, there is approximately three and 1/2 feet between the sides of the entertainment center and the side walls with the speakers approx 1 foot away from the sides of the entertainment center. They are forward of it by 1/2 foot with the transducers about 4 feet from the back wall. Also I actually found that toeing the speakers in more than the ML inside 1/3 rule works better for me. As soon as I have one of my grandsons available to help remove the heavy bridge between the towers on the entertainment center I will reinstall a tube DAC and not do anything else until I see how that works out. |
Atmasphere, thanks, and I apologize to all about the double post. I've had an issue with forum signin and sometimes the only way to get back into the forum is to start a new thread. Anyway yours was the kind of education that I needed. I've spent 55+ yrs in this hobby but have never been a student of it and is now why I'm having to ask so many questions. Regarding the ESL impedance curve, if I'm understanding the explanation, the impedance effects of my newer Ethos speakers should be somewhat less significant than the Odysseys that they replaced because of their smaller size and the more limited lower range capability of the panels. It seems to me, then, that my issues with upper frequencies should be somewhat reduced using these smaller panels. However, that doesn't seem to be the case.
A question I have regarding your discussion of feedback is that if it results in an increase in upper level harmonics, would that not also enhance perception of timbre?
For some time now I've suspected that there is some sort of antagonistic relationship between timbre and brightness and, because the timbre issue is one of the most important issues to me and brightness is my least acceptable, I seem always to be walking a tightrope between the two. Of course, my perceptions and ultimate conclusions regarding this interpretation could be way off base.
Your explanations, at least to the extent that I think I understand ithem, make a great deal of sense and I hope that my comments do them no injustice. It will, though, take some time for me to digest and expand on them before I comment further. |
Sqlsavior, thanks for the suggestion which is similar to others I received several months ago. The first EQ I tried was a parametric and I had a problem learning to use it. The graphic EQ is a bit simpler to understand and its control parameters are consistent with the kind of control that I thought I needed which is the main reason I chose that route. I've found, though, that the proper setup of either is much more involved than anticipated. |
I may be in over my head in my following comments but here goes. In the process of trying to determine where my hearing is most sensitive I used a test CD which steps sound frequencies from 20Hz to 20kHz. This is how I found that frequencies between 1400 and 2000hz are the most uncomfortable. The recording, supposedly presents fundamental frequencies throughout the test range so upper level harmonics based distortion would be minimized. However, because the CD is being played through my amplification equipment, and if this equipment is what's adding the distortion, whether or not it is the base frequency or the distortion of it that causes my specific problem isn't resolved.
I tried the same test using a computer based tone generator and got the same results, though, so I'm beginning to think that at least a big part of my issue is a simple sensitivity to those fundamental frequencies between 1400 and 2000Hz which, btw, correspond closely to the frequencies of my tinnitus.
That being said, and assuming that distortion, in my case at least, is not the only factor producing harshness, I'm now concerned that simply changing my amplification equipment may not be the answer. Because I now use EQ's, I could attenuate the culprit frequencies but even I know that this is would introduce potentially worse problems. |
Thanks. That, of course, makes sense and I have tried the same offending CD's on 2 other systems, one of which was my own located in another room; the other was a setup belonging to a friend. I found the discomfort to be similar at the same point in the music from all. I guess that should tell me something but I'm afraid to conclude what. |
Atmasphere, in each system that I used for this test the players were different; one is my own which is the Shanling CD-100, another is an old Theta, and the third source is our Apple TV playing Apple lossless files. The results are the same in all cases using multiple CDs when the offending frequencies come up. For example, I can't listen to anything Celine Dione sings except at VERY low volume. Mostly, though, because much of my listening is to solo guitar, there are only a few passages that bother me so, yes, most most of what I listen to is pleasing and I generally enjoy my system very much.
Labtec, I got out the old test CD and tried listening to pink noise but didn't quit get the part about a comparison. The test disk presents pink noise starting at the left speaker, then right, then simultaneously, both in and out of phase. The thing I didn't expect nor understand is that the out of phase sound was almost exclusively from the right speaker. I'm sure I'm missing something here. |
George, this is my 6th pair of Martin Logans and I've seen the graphs so your observation is absolutely correct. I'm using a Peachtree Audio 220W power amp but I don't know how adequate its current capabilities are in regard to the impedance increases that you describe. However, I'm 72 and starting to be convinced that a significant part of my problem is related to hearing changes that have occurred over the years. |
Something wrong is right. The difference between in phase and out is dramatic; when standing nearly centered in the plane struck from one speaker to the other, the in phase sound is centered and the out of phase sound has the perception stereo but more or less equal in volume left to right. In the out of phase mode as I move away toward my listening position the sound moves incrementally to the right. When I retreat all the way to my listening position the sound seems like it's coming from over my right shoulder. I did these tests with the equalizers bypassed but I'm not confident that their presence in the system may still not be having an effect. Anyway, it's worrisome and apparent that I have a significant problem somewhere but haven't yet figured out where to start looking.
To put to rest the issue of needing a hearing specialist, I've been to 3 audiologists, one of which is a tinnitis specialist. I know what my hearing deficiencies are and have used my audiograms to design base slopes on the EQ's. As I've gone into detail on other threads, I can't wear hearing aids because of the extreme sensitivity of my ear canals. For purposes of this discussion,though, my hearing issues are not dramatic but, typically, exhibiting a nearly equal bilateral drop off beginning at about 4000Hz.
ZD, I've tried exactly what you suggested and got the results that you describe but that was before adding the equalizers. I do believe that one of them (right channel), btw, might have a problem. The next step, then, is to remove them and start the evaluation again. Once I get the issue that I'm working on resolved, it isn't high on my list, but I may be looking for an upgrade to my CD player which I've had for a very long time and continue to be quite happy with. |
In the several years that I've participated in these forums these are some of the most comprehensive and cogent responses that I've read. Even though some explanations are stretching my ability I greatly appreciate them and thank you for your willingness to share it.
The pink noise test revealed something that I otherwise may have continued to overlook as an important factor. I described the phenomenon of moving back from the speakers toward my listening position while listening to out-of-phase pink noise (actually, any out-of-phase frequencies) noting that the sound moved incrementally to the right. If I change my listening position to about 5 feet closer to the speakers, then, this migration of sound becomes less perceptible. I know that room acoustics is important but is it possible that it could be so dramatic?
It was pointed out that my system is anything but reference grade or state of the art but, unless I'm missing something, I fail to see why this is pertinent to my inquiry. I know enough about my setup to realize this and if one couples this with the fact that I don't have a dedicated listening room, the challenges are many. Hence, my requests for help.
As an aside, the problem with certain frequencies is little different from when I was using a Rogue Audio Sphinx amp with ML Odysseys. I made the change of amps about 8 months ago and switched speakers only a couple of months ago. It now seems slightly worse for those offending frequencies but, because I used the Odysseys for about 13 years, I may still be adjusting. Also likely is that the Ethos is supposedly more revealing of what's going on upstream in the system.
To answer one question regarding the comparison of live versus recorded music, especially using the piano for reference, we have a piano and, yes, the same notes either recorded or live create the same discomfort. This fact, of course leads me to the conclusion that it is not a component of my system that is the culprit for at least this issue.
Anyway, when I get some help to access the back of my equipment, I'll remove the equalizers to eliminate that variable before I continue with anymore experimenting. |
Bifwynne, yes, I have read your posts and have reviewed the PreMATE as a potential fix worth consideration. I had the same concerns re putting additional components in the stream when I added EQ's to address my hearing issues. It may be an affront to the sensibilities of many audiophiles but the overall improvement to my personal listening enjoyment was significant, sort of like having room sized hearing aids. The PreMATE's price is a bit of a stretch for me, though, so for now I'll just keep it on my list for future consideration. |
I've used electrostatics for over 35 years, all of which except for one pair of Acoustats have been ML (Prodigy, SL3, CLS, Odyssey, now the Ethos) and have been aware of their impedance characteristics for most of that time. However, during much of the early part of that interval I thought that simply adding sufficient power would accommodate potential problems associated with that issue. I also thought, as do many of us undereducated hobbyists, that tube amps are, out of hand, naturally "warmer" than solid state. I was wrong, of course, and have come some distance from that time, discovering, for one thing, that the brightest amp I've ever owned was an integrated tube unit that I almost immediately removed from my system.
In reading these posts and doing the research they've inspired, I think now that my original post should have read "Best amp for ESL's" period. I shouldn't have started out assuming that tubes were the only or even my best solution. In the past I've used multiple DAC's to deal with my stated issues and for at least one source, achieved a significant improvement. Now, as if my challenges were not already enough, we're discussing significant issues related to the tube/ESL route that challenge my thinking even more.
I think my approach, then, has been somewhat backward; I bought amplification equipment based on good reviews and upgraded my speakers based on my familiarity with a certain technology and expected them to meld into a superior system. Fortunately, for most of my music this turned out to be pretty much the case and resulted in what might be the best setup I've ever put together except for these issues of occasional harshness associated with certain frequencies. Because these problems seem to be primarily a result of my age related hearing deterioration I feel now like I'm chasing my tail looking for some magic in more equipment changes.
Anyway, I'm going to reintroduce tube DAC's back into the setup and see if that helps but, whether or not it does, I will still be following this thread and continuing research until I get comfortable with a final decision about equipment choices |
Chuckie, coincidentally, there is a pair for sale here on Audiogon and the price seems reasonable. Right now I'm leaning more toward solid state, partly because of my having had more experience with that technology and partly based on the eye opening discussions here on this thread. Thank you for this info, though; I'll keep your suggestion in mind. |
Even though I've been active in this hobby for about fifty six years having built my first monaural amps from kits in the mid fiftys, I'm completely aware of my limitations attempting to evaluate deficiencies in my various setups. This is especially the case now that I'm in my seventies with the attendant hearing issues. I do, though, think I know what I want to hear but am evidently limited in the language necessary to relate it.
Also, based on some of the comments I receive, I get the impression that my responses to some posts have gone unread which may be understandable in consideration of the length of this thread.
Anyway, I'm at a point now where I'm going to disengage from this thread in order to take time digesting the significant amount of information contributed here. |
Detlof, at low volumes I experience no discomfort at any frequency but at "normal" levels there are ranges of frequencies, as I pointed out, that bother me especially when from a percussive source like a piano. It might be important to mention that the problem was somewhat worsened when I switched to the Ehos speakers from the Odysseys. The Ethos seems to do a very good job in the upper mid frequencies, maybe too good. To answer the question about speaker cable selection, my original thread was started with that subject in mind but I decided that my issues warranted a little less subtle approach and that I'd address the cable issue later.
One thing I've learned which is contrary to the assumption that proper speaker positioning should be much simpler with these speakers because of the smaller transducer panel compared to the Odysseys. That's simply not the case and their positioning may be even more critical which reminds me of another point; I was able to achieve a somewhat warmer sound toeing them in several degrees more than the recommended starting point of aiming them so that one is listening to the inner 1/3 of each speaker.
As far as the CD player is concerned, most of my evaluation has been in listening to lossless files synced from iTunes to the Apple TV. It's the simplest way I have of switching between various genres for comparison of different instruments. I hear no difference, though, listening to either source. The CD player, btw, is about 10 years old and I'm not using my DAC's as I'm depending, so far, on the Peachtree internal DAC which is supposed to be decent.
EBM, thanks, I will look into the VAC as one of the choices. |
ZD, you summarized my inquiry better than I and hit on one of the issues that has been in the forefront of my thinking, the factors associated with timbre. Even with my age related hearing issues, in my uneducated way I still believe that those frequencies that are beyond audible have some importance in overall sonic quality. To some extent I was able to demonstrate this when I added the EQ's. When setting them up I used my audiogram to establish a baseline slope. In this exercise I pretty much ignored adjusting those frequencies above about 8000hz because they were beyond my audible range. At first I thought that the equalizers compromised my sense of timbre which is one of the most important factors in my listening enjoyment. Before I removed them from the system, though, I continued messing with them and discovered that boosting those frequencies above my way upper limits improved the sound to the extent that even I recognized it. You also mentioned that tube amps, out of hand,are not necessarily the answer because some can also be bright, a fact that I had already discovered a couple of years ago when I traded my Rogue Audio Sphinx for an integrated tube amp which was so bright sounding that I kept in the system for only 2 weeks.
Also, years ago I thought that my sensitivities were related to the higher "tweeter frequencies" and I experimented with tweeters to no avail. In the process, though, I discovered that good tweeters seem critical to timbre. As stated, my sensitivities are related to frequencies in the 1400 to 1900Hz range corresponding, on a piano, to somewhere above middle C.
Lostbears, good suggestion; sometime today I will reinstall one of my tube DAC's to see how much that helps. I should have been a little more clear, though, regarding the fact that I'm looking at the possibility of switching to a tube based power amp based on advice from a very well respected audiophile here on Audiogon.
Detlof, thanks again and to answer your question, the upper middle frequencies produced by the piano don't seem distorted, just harsh to the point that at normal listening volumes (I know....whatever that means) it can actually cause me to wince. |
I may have started this thread under the false pretext that I have a strong desire to switch from solid state when what I really needed was help with certain specific issues thinking that tubes may be an appropriate path toward that goal. What I'm learning from the resulting discussions, especially in consideration of the range of opinions from experts regarding how best to use tube amplication with ESL's, is that my most practical choice is to stay with solid state.
Although my system may not be "state of the art" as was pointed out early on this thread, it is one of the best sounding setups I've had in my home for over 50 years so I'm generally pretty happy. For these other concerns I'm going to reinstall DAC's at my two primary sources, play around some more with the equalizers and worry about upgrading amplification later. |
