Kalan you are right. I posted above and tried the passive and no preamp thing. A good active preamp always sounded better. It may be possible that in a certain set-up no pre or a passive pre is better, but I HAVE NEVER HEARD IT COME OUT THAT WAY.
I tried with many different combo's of gear and the active pre always won out pretty easily. I personally think those who find a passive or no pre to sound better like a "certain" type of sound. That type of sound is a little on the lean side. To some this sounds more detailed and transparent. I think one perceives this and is tricked by the overall leaness of the presentation. Bottom line, the preless or passive camp just likes it more and that is cool!
Wish I did as I could save money without a pre.
Bill |
A meaning of a PREAMP(POWER-AMP) is relatively new v.s. previouse meaning of just an AMPLIFIER.
Whatever we take as PREAMP is actually the part of an AMPLIFIER.
So depending on a number of an input(driving) stages of the amplifier you may or maynot need active preamplification. |
You may not need it functionally, but my ears say you need it for the best sound performance. |
Marakanetz, you make a good point. I guess it would be possible to have a high out put CD player with decent volume control of some kind and maybe a power amp with a good input section to combine to take the place of a pre-amp.
Someone else on this thread pointed out (I think), though, that the likelihood that the volume controls on most variable out CDP's will compete with the attenuators on good pre-amps is somewhat low---all other things being equal.
There is also the issue of impedance matching. Are there enough variable out CDP's that also have both sufficient gain and low impedance to "drive" an appropriately equipped (sufficient input stage) power amp properly? I don't know. Maybe this has been covered elsewhere in this thread. Sorry for the redundancy, if so.
Grannyring, Thanks for the corroboration. We just haven't heard a pre'-less setup done right, I suppose. |
What about integrateds with a passive preamp built in? The Portal Panache or Song Audio's Vasant_K are basically configured as a power amp with a passive volume attenuator and input selector. I have not listened to these integrateds but have heard positive comments from satified users. Do these units exhibit the typical characteristics of a passive preamp (lacking dynamics, requires high input voltage from source, etc)? |
I can only tell you what my ears told me. At the present time I am running a modest system with early Maggie I series, Threshold S/150, Sony Dvp 7000 with mods on all the above. My preamp consisted of an entry level Audio Note M Zero, although a budget preamp I found it to have very pleaseing sonics. But you know I wanted more and being that the Sony DVP 7000 was know as a better transport than player I thought I should try an outboard Dac. Enter the Benchmark Dac which I played for 3 weekend days ( lots of hours )and I ran it through my preamp then as the manual says I thought I would try it without the preamp. WOW !! the difference was stunning, much better sound stage, more dynamic, much more bloom in the instrument. Why would I run it through my preamp after this. I sold the Audio Note and go from my CDP-Dac-Amp, the benchmark Dac I believe does have an active gain stage for volume. Had I had a better preamp I might not have noticed the big difference. But I really like what I hear now. I'm on a budget but I will say I live in Vancouver and have been thinking about trying a preamp from a local builder known as Space Tech. Labs which has had some good reviews. |
Solman989
You can add the Manley Stingray to your list also. I guess no one will be wanting to own these integrated components now that you have let this cat out of the bag...they must sound very dull and lifeless.
Dave |
Sogood51, sarcasm aside, these passively integrated units do have some advantages. They have less connectors and may have much less cable to drive. Due to size, weight and heat issues, in practice most of these passive integrated units will be limited in power output. High powered passive integrateds will probably be too cumbersome for most to use conviently. The irony is if one were to use remote control and place these passive integrateds where traditional power amps usually go, one would probably need many longer interconnects from source components to facitlitate their use. Of course multi-amping becomes more problematic as well. |
Unsound
Thought I better stir pot.
Dave |
Dave, that's what I thought. As usuall it carried a good thought as well. |
Add to the list of integrated amps with a passive input the Ayre AX-7e.
I have not heard any of these (passive input) integrateds. I would like to, though. Their power amp sections were designed specifically to be run with a passive pre' section (I presume) and so would most likely do just fine---more than fine---in this configuration, especially with a high output, low impedance CDP or DAC.
Could these integrateds be tested with and w/o an active pre-amp by turning the volume all the way up on the Int amp and use it with an active pre'? And then take the pre' out and use the volume control on the int amp as usual? Has anybody tried this with such an integrated amp?
Does the Berning 270 amp have a passive input section? |
Yes I have. I've tried this with my passive integrated. It sounds much better when you have the active gain stage involved.Without it the sound is clear and precise but a tad thin without the help from a tube linestage. After trying it both ways I couldn't see going without the active linestage/ gain-stage in the loop. I liked the sound so much I'm getting a unit built without the volume control that is nothing more than a low gain active stage to go between my DAC and Integrated. |
Solman989,
In case of integrated amps you ought to figure that the amplification part does it all where the volume pot usually connected onto the driving stage(realy becomes active after all)
In some of the passive-stage integrated amps you may feel the lack of drive and controll f.ex. Creek 4330. At the same time I could contradict myself saying that it just hasn't enough watts, but after trying it to work as poweramp only with active drive it was way different:
Still lack of power but controll increased no doubt.
Another of my discoveries would state that you can add even a chain of preamps and you will gain even more and more controll but to the point where's your music would become overcompressed since every preamp would invert signal i.e. make a negative feedback level deeper.
Counterpoint power amplifiers have option to have a high impedance/sensitivity driving stage specially designed for the passive preamps. This driving stage isn't recommended for the best product performance to whoever prefers active preamplification... Which means that preamplification and driving stages should be just enough not to get high level of a signal compression and so I guess that hobbyist who's matching components should pay to some degree an attention to this factor such as a number of preamplification and driving stages of mainly separate amplification components. |
For what it's worth, I've found my Levinson 390S running directly into my CAT JL-3's to sound much better without my ARC Ref 2 Mk II. Of course, the 390S DOES have the same analog volume control found in Levinson preamps. |
active preamp. The only direct CD connection I have heard and liked was a $6K Wadia. For that you can buy a great CD and pre while maintaining flexibility. |
A passive preamp will often sound better than an active but that is only because most active pre's are poor.When you discover a really good active pre-like the Suprateks,it becomes obvious that the preamp is actually more important than the power amp.You can never achieve good sound from a system using a good power amp and an average pre but you can get great sound from a good pre and an average power amp.
JT |
I tried a Placette RVC, with .5 meter Audioquest Jaguar cables to my Mcintosh MC 2000 amp.
It lacked dynamics. The music lacked life. My Supratek Grange, is 1,000 times better.
I have also done the expermient with hooking my cd player directly up to the amp. A pre amp to me just seems to pull together a more musical presentation. |
Sugarbrie, you have a Creek integrated and an Onkyo receiver. So where's the preamp???? |
I'd like to prepsent a few facts which may help you to understand this complex issue. Because the answer is "it depends".
1st, if we look back 40 yesrs ago, we did not have high output sources. So it was a must to have preamp not only to switch sources but to amplify the signal for the amps. So, the amps were not buit as sesitive as todays amps. Not only that most speakers were very efficient. When CDP first came out they also had much lower output(less than 1v) than todays CDP(2v).
2nd, the only things in audio chaine which does not amplify the signal is the phono pickup and DAC chip. As soon as the signal leaves the TRUE source each component amplifies the signal including the source equipment.
3rd, amplification process doesn't make the input signal bigger. It make a bigger COPY of the input and discard the original. So, as soon as the original leaves the TRUE source, its forever gone and only the COPY handed down.
4th, all amplification process react to the demand from Down Stream and pass that to the Up Stream. Which means, speaker demand reachs all the way up to the very first amplification. Which also means, if the Mid Stream amplification can meet the demand of DS less demand goes to US.
5th, eash pomponent has multiple amp/gain stages. Two to as many as five. Less can be better but demands much better performance from US.
6th, many of todays speakers are very inefficient. Impedence drops too low which put much high demand up the chain.
I'm a purist and I don't use pre nither active nor passive. I'm using Meridian digital pre infront of the DAC. My DAC is Denon DVD5000 which I had disable the entire DVD section route all poower to DAC section and re bias its output to class A resulting 4v of output from the 2v. And all my amps are very sensitive which requires only .5 to 1v of input. I'm a SET guy and most of them are naturally sesitive.
More often than not it will be your speakers calling the shot.
Best regards... |
I have had many active and passive preamps under different system configurations. In some cases a preamp wasmandatory and made huge effect in the sonics and presentation, in some others a passive preamp or no preamp (asI have now my system) wotks the best.
Sorry - no golden-rule here from my experience. |
