I am streaming from an external drive on my Mac computer to an Auralic Aries, fed to an LKS DAC. I have a wired Ethernet connection from my wall outlet to an AT&T provided modem. The modem is connected to a Netgear router, which connects to a Netgear switch that is optimized for music streaming. Another Ethernet cable runs from my Mac directly to the Netgear switch. I am aiming for the best sound quality with this system. Here are my questions:
1. is it best to have my computer's Ethernet cable plugged into the switch, or should it be plugged into the router instead. It will function either way. But what would be the best option?
2. To provide optical isolation for the Ethernet cable, I installed two TP-Link FMC’s between the switch and the Aries streamer. Is that the best position for the isolation? I have it as close to the DAC as possible. Or should I place the FMC's somewhere else in the chain?
3. Would I obtain a boost in sound quality if I added a second pair of FMC's to the system? There are 4 other options: a. Between the wall outlet and the modem. b. Between the computer and the switch. c. Between the modem and the router. d. Between the router and the switch. In case it matters, the longest stretch of copper Ethernet cable is between the computer and the switch (50 feet).
1) It does not matter. Switches and routers run SO MUCH FASTER than any digitized analog signal, even a logic analyzer will be hard pushed to tell the difference.
2) You do not need any optical isolation. Wire will work perfectly fine, unless you are running miles of it.
3) No. Digital is digital, regardless of how many billion devices you add in between, ALL ethernet signals as per the standard, ARE THE SAME: Inter frame gap, the hunting preamble, the bit rate are ALL STANDARD. Otherwise nothing would work with each other.
Typical lag in an ethernet frame as it traverses a switch is in the microseconds range. It will never affect any sound quality.
More bandwidth isnt necessarily a good thing, you don't need high bandwidth for the parts of your network that are only dealing with audio streaming.
both the Melco and uptone audio high end switches say 100mz rj45 is better quality than gigabit as wider bandwidth allows more very high frequency noise (and the melco has both).
Even normal ethernet switches can have marked effects on sound quality there are some good threads on computer audiophile on this, avoid fans and check out ground shunting power supplies (some are configured to do this anyway others you can modify the SMPS to do this easily).
Kijanki, Where this USB power comes from? Computer sourced power is not better than wall wort
The output of the router is USB port on my router. I figured that side didn’t matter as it’s being cleaned by the optical transmission (probably not so true based on your above statements).
The streamer side is a 2nd USB port on my Lumin U1 mini. I’m planning to upgrade the power supply in that unit to a sbooster LPS next month.
I was also thinking about a Sbooster LPS for the router, so I may do that now too.
@boakey39 - Just one set right now, 15M from my router to my music server and then I am using USB from the server to my DAC because that input sounds best. However, I am scheduled to receive a new DAC soon that will have much improved inputs, S/PDIF-BNC, AES/EBU, and USB. I am planning to use the
AES/EBU input and I will then need another Ethernet run from my server to a separate Roon endpoint so I will use one of the fiber converter loops there too. I also have CAT 8 Ethernet cables in place for both of those runs so after a while I will probably disconnect the fiber and reconnect the
CAT 8 Ethernet cables directly without any fiber and then I will listen to hear any differences.
Thanks Kijinki. Way over my head, but I appreciate the attempt.
Draw on paper two horizontal lines connected by 45 degree transition. Let say, that level recognition point is in the middle of this transition. This will correspond to particular point (draw vertical line). Now, replace this 45 degree straight diagonal line with wobbly line - like sinewave (that’s added noise). Vertical point corresponding to midpoint will change. Vertical line (time) was shifted. Imagine that you send digital stream producing 1kHz tone. If this digital stream shifts back and forth in time 60 times a second it will result on analog side of D/A conversion with 1kHz tone and two added tones at 940Hz and 1060Hz called sidebands. Amplitude of these sidebands will be proportional to amount of the shift. These sidebands are extremely small, but are still audible since they are not harmonically related to root frequency (in this case 1kHz). With many root frequencies (music) there will be many sidebands, resulting in added noise. This noise is present only when signal is present, so it is hard to measure it. In addition, this shift of the streamed data doesn’t have to be caused by one singular frequency, like 60Hz (correlated) but it might shift at multiple frequencies (uncorrelated).
Perfect transitions (like 0ns) will still have amplitude variations of the midpoint, but it won't change the time moment of level recognition (exact moment of transition). That way slower transitions are more likely to add noise induced jitter.
Where this USB power comes from? Computer sourced power is not better than wall wort - both likely use crude switching power supplies. There are very high quality SMPS with lower noise than typical linear supply, but you won't find them in USB supply. Next best would be linear power supply for USB, but I don't know much about them. I'm sure they exist and perhaps somebody can suggest a good one?
Thanks Kijinki. Way over my head, but I appreciate the attempt.
Relatve to FMCs adding electric noise, I found a small USB powered FMC thinking this would be less likely to add noise as it it doesn't need a wall wort. Any thoughts on this?
Kijinki, can you explain the above? How does fiber get interfered by electrical noise?
When transition edges are perfectly square (low transition time) electrical noise added to source or destination makes no difference - level change is recognized at exact moment of transition, but when transitions are slow noise added at the source (varying light intensity) or at the DAC side (varying threshold point) will change moment of level recognition - amplitude variation converts to time variation. Time variation - jitter, converts to added noise. High end transports have transition times as low as 5ns, typical transports about 25ns and optical many times that.
The FMC the OP is talking about was recommended by reviewer Steve Plaskin (currently with Twittering Machines) a couple of years ago when he was with AudioStream. The idea is to disrupt EMI that may have been picked up by the Ethernet cable. If you look at Plaskin's system page over on TM, he is still using that set-up although he now uses the Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical. I started using the optical isolation discussed in the original article about a year ago with two TP Link converters and a short fiber optic cable between them. Very recently I decided to replace my long Ethernet cable from my router to my server with a 15M fiber optic cable using two TP Link converters, one near the router and the other just before the server. Both TP Link converters are connected to their respective Ethernet connections with very short CAT 8 cables.
I find the little wall warts that the routers and switches plug into to be the biggest noise issue.
Make sure all your routers and switches are 1GigE at least. This will give you tons more bandwidth than you need for audio, even with competing streams. Once you do that, go with simple, short runs, and use switches were convenient to avoid running multiple long runs.
Fiber optics likely has slow transition edges, making it prone to electrical noise interference (that affect threshold point in time - hence creating jitter). Adding power conditioner would help.
Kijinki, can you explain the above? How does fiber get interfered by electrical noise?
I’d keep it with the two FMCs between the switch and your streamer. I have mine between the router and the streamer and it works well. The exception would be if your swtch has a SPF port. If that’s the case, you could do without one of the FMCs and just run fiber from the switch to the FMC and then wire to the streamer.
Fiber optics likely has slow transition edges, making it prone to electrical noise interference (that affect threshold point in time - hence creating jitter). Adding power conditioner would help.
Sorry for the confusion. I have gigabit Ethernet service with copper cable. I put in a pair of TP-Link optical fiber media converters (FMC’’s) between the switch and my streamer. They provide a short length of optical fiber to isolate the copper Ethernet signal and reduce interference. My computer is in a nearby bedroom. I use a separate router and high grade switch because AT&T’s modem/router combo does not provide a strong enough signal. My current setup is working fine. I just wondered whether adding any additional fiber isolation to the system might increase sound quality. The TP-Link devices are an inexpensive alternative to Ethernet filters, such as the Uptone EtherRegen and the Gigafoil. By using two optical fiber converters, you go from copper to fiber and then back to copper to connect to your RJ-45 component. There is a short, 1 meter optical cable in between. Here is a link to these devices on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003CFATL0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Funny you should start this tread as I am in the throes of replacing my Verizon supplied ethernet cable with a run of Audioquest cable. In my opinion, I would try to run all your audio connections as close to the ATT modem. I do this as I believe the less between the incoming signal, the better.
I have no idea what a
TP-Link FMC is? Google doesn't help, either.
What do you mean by TP-Link. If it is Wi-Fi then nothing before it matters - it is just Wi-Fi data. TP-Link in front of the DAC seems to be optimal (eliminates most of injected noise). D/A conversion always benefits from quiet power supply. Good line conditioner for DAC (and TP-line receiver) would help.
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