The live dual drummer solo on Genesis Seconds out album by Chester Thompson and Phil Collins leading into the finale Los Endos.
Best Drum Solos
I searched the forums titles to see if there were any good drum solo discussions going on, but I didn't see any. So here we go. In no particular order, here are some drum solos I've found to be very high quality:
Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers - The Drum Thunder Suite
Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers - Caravan
Dave Brubeck Quartet - Far More Drums
Led Zeppelin - Moby Dick
Max Roach - Max's Variations
What are your favorite drum solos to listen to on your system?
@treebeard1 Thx for sharing not that was great. Apologies to all who have seen this already (42 million hits and counting) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ItZyaOlrb7E |
Alright, time to take it to another level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aL2I--TCHM&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=Loudwire |
I have thoroughly enjoyed making playlists from these suggestions. I'll add a few of my own. I see Ginger Baker is somewhat controversial but I didn't see these so I'll list them. I really like his work with Charlie Haden and Bill Frisell. I guess I like that "off beat" sound and tend to gravitate to drummers that are not just there to keep the beat.
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My pleasure, ghosthouse. There are plenty of other drummers with highly developed technique, but that alone is no guarantee of good drumming. It is that ability in combination with musical creativity and good taste that makes Gadd the drummer he is. Another was Johnny Barbata, as I previously mentioned. He was an L.A. studio drummer who was enlisted into The Turtles, and though the other Turtles were nothing special, he was very special. Listen to his playing in "Happy Together", "She’d Rather Be With Me", and "You Know What I Mean". Really cool parts that take a fair degree of technique to play (Buddy Rich was a fan of Johnny’s). Levon Helm had a fair amount of technique, along with off-the-charts musicality, taste, and creativity. He could play a "press-roll", which Ringo has yet to learn. That’s okay, Keith Moon couldn’t play one either, but both had their own style, and did pretty well without technique! The pursuit of technique as an end unto itself can lead to a style of playing that in nothing more than the vulgar display of athletic ability. It is only in the service of making music that it has true value. |
Here's a few you may not have heard. Dafnis Prieto - https://youtu.be/O_aUuzMeLkM Gergo Borlai - https://youtu.be/3w0JZpaHDz4 Giovanni Hidalgo - https://youtu.be/Ne3oSLlRiZU These guys give new meaning to the phrase "talking drums"! More like singing, sometimes screamin'!;) |
bdp - Thank you very much for that analysis. I enjoy learning the details behind a great music performance. I spent a lot of hours in my youth with Signore Clementi (for better or worse), so can appreciate some of the concepts. I think Gadd’s broad dynamics might be one of his traits I picked up on most readily (i.e., "nuanced") - that and his inventiveness. Thanks again. I appreciate the time you spent writing. |
gh, Steve Gadd is a very technically trained drummer (in rudiments, the equivalent of a guitarist, bassist, or pianist knowing all the scales of every key in every position. The Band bassist Rick Danko said organist Garth Hudson’s advice to learn them was the best he was ever given), having studied at both The Eastman and Manhattan Schools of Music, as well as having played in the U.S. Army Stage Band. His famous part in Paul Simon’s "50 Ways To Leave Your Lover" is very militaristic. He was already sitting in with world-class Jazz artists as a teenager. Steve uses his incredible technique as a means to precisely and cleanly execute his very musical drum ideas and parts, not to merely display that technique. He doesn’t overplay, a rarity amongst highly technical players. His technical abilities allow him to play with a great deal of finesse and delicacy (it’s hard to play drums quietly! The Band’s Levon Helm is great at that), yet also play a thunderously dynamic crescendo or solo. Speaking of solo, his are very musical---with an intro, a theme established, a variation on that theme played, followed by another theme, an eventual finale, etc. Lots of structure, and musically interesting and lyrical ideas, not the mere athletic performance that is typical in the vast majority of drummer’s solos. It was for the same reason I cited Don Lamond’s solo (actually, a short drum "break") in Bobby Darin’s studio recording of "Beyond The Sea", as musical (and humorous!) a drum solo as I’ve ever heard. In addition, Gadd plays with a lot of dynamics, letting the song, singer, and other musicians tell him when to hit hard and loud, and when to bring it way down, playing his bass drum with the "feathered" technique I explained in a previous post. Many drummers play with almost no dynamics, giving every note the same dynamic value---eleven! Some music calls for that---Keith Moon in The Who had little choice in the matter, not that he cared ;-). And lastly, Steve’s drums and cymbals sound great; he learned how to tune drums (you’d be surprised how many don’t, including Buddy Rich), and knew how to pick out good brass---his cymbals are really good sounding ones, though not as good as those of Jim Gordon and Levon Helm, the two best sets I’ve ever heard. Again, very "musical" sounding---the overtones in tune with the fundamentals---harmonic, not dissonant. The sound of cymbals, by the way, is greatly influenced and determined by the manner in which they are played. Ringo’s and Keith Moon’s cymbal sound was very "washy", as they both played them with the "shoulder" of the stick, not it’s tip. I love the "click" produced by the tip of a small drumstick hitting a thin cymbal, the click greatly enhanced in recording with the application of heavy compression on the mic recording the cymbal. It makes the stick tip-on-cymbal impact really "POP!" If the engineer isn't already doing it when I record now, I request he do so. |
Very pleased you liked it, bdp. We can put aside our differences about Ginger and agree on Gadd. He seems on another plane altogether. I’m not a drummer but would say there is something about Gadd’s style that is very nuanced and almost delicate yet powerful without bashing. Kind of deceptive that way. And very very quick. I’m sure you see and hear more in it than I do. Humbling is okay. Got to have high goals to aspire to. That whole performance from all participants achieves an amazing level of excellence. Bears lots of re-watching. |
Too many great ones to call this "best", but certainly very, very good from Mr. Gadd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vrLAK_CZrY If you get impatient, skip ahead to ~7:30 |
Agree with John Bonham, Art Blakey, Santana 3 and the Sheffield Drum record. I would add the solo by Pierre van der Linden from the Dutch band Focus, on track Anonymous , album Focus 3: less showy than others but thrillingly effective in its context. Am also an admirer of Ian Paice from Deep Purple, some solos on the Made in Japan album are impressive. |
Check out this drummer from Canada https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryvuvac3JXo This is perhaps why I like all drummers - everyone brings something to the table either from a unique style, feel or masterful ability in certain aspects. I don’t think I could ever play like this - not in a million years - the amount of practice and dedication to pull this off is phenomenal!! |
Stevie Wonder is a gas! Speaking of great drumming by musicians for whom drums is not the main instrument (Stevie), my favorite is Richard Manuel, pianist and singer of The Band. Very creative and unique, better than most drums-first drummers imo. And what a sense of musical humor! Few realize it, but it is Richard playing drums on almost half the songs on The Band’s second (s/t, "brown") album. Other pretty good drummers are Paul McCartney, Todd Rundgren, and Andrew Gold (Ronstadt’s guitarist in the 70’s). Not to be argumentative or disrespectful of others opinions, but the solos in both "Wipe Out" (not actually a solo, per se) and (especially) "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" are considered by drummers as two of, if not the, worst in the history of recordings. Ron Bushy played the solo in all single-strokes, displaying his complete lack of technique and chops. Embarrassing. The solo is also musically boring, with not a hint of wit or intelligence. Dullsville, baby. |
Stevie Wonder is one of my all time favorite drummers. If the criteria is playing in service of the song, then Stevie's THE MAN. Everything he plays seems absolutely perfect for each song. Eric Clapton (who's played with quite a few good drummers) says Mr. Wonder has to be the greatest drummer of our time. |
shadorne, I LOVE Phil Rudd! Love him to death. Nobody plays Chuck Berry-style Rock 'n' Roll better than Phil, and his snare drum sounds just the way they are suppose to. Steve Gadd is an absolute marvel, absolutely one of the very best drummers in the world. Expensive, but worth it. Speaking of worth, can you believe Paul McCartney was paying Wings drummer Denny Seiwell a whopping $150/wk?! What a d*ck. A drummer who was great as a session player, and continued to play great even as the member of a lame band, was Jeff Porcaro. Imagine playing on Boz Scaggs "Lido Shuffle" (great drumming), and then having to play Toto's horrid songs? I neglected to mention L.A. studio drummer Russ Kunkel. The last time I saw him live was as a member of Lyle Lovett's Big Band (what a band!), but in the 70's and beyond he recorded with just about all the best songwriters and singers. The Everly Brothers, Dylan, Ronstadt, Neil Young, Carole King, James Taylor, Jackson Browne, Joe Walsh, J.J. Cale, Tracy Chapman, Rita Coolidge, Crosby, Stills, & Nash (group and solo), Rodney Crowell, Richie Furay, Andrew Gold, Emmylou Harris, B.B. King, Roger McGuinn, Joni Mitchell, Stevie Nicks, The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Aaron Neville, Bonnie Raitt, Neil Sedaka, Bob Segar, Carly Simon, John Stewart, Steve Winwood, Bill Withers, and Warren Zevon engaged his services because of his superb musicality, not his abilities as a soloist. I like songs, not solos (though Steve Gadd does a great one!). But this isn't my thread, so enough outta me. Back to your favorite drum solos, boys! |
As for Bonham, he really supported the song adding to Jones or Page while keeping everything in a funky swing feel with plenty of tasty triplets. No mention of David Garabaldi? And Dennis Chambers?? or Dany Carey ??? There are sooooo many fantastic drummers out there and I love them all including David Grohl, Patrick Carey and Meg White who all play in a wonderful self taught way that just sounds refreshing |
So far I see no mention of Phil Rudd the human metronome who just sits in the pocket all night long https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tOKYFR4Rzg&feature=share I don't think I have ever seen Phil do a drum solo! |
I have played drums for over 50 years in many groups throughout the years. I really like the technical guys. I think ginger baker, Mitch Mitchell, Neal Peart and others are pretty good but play pretty basic, not very difficult. IMO John Bonham was very very good, and the drummer that has a very complex style is Mike Portnoy, used to be with Dream Theater in their better days. Just my opinion! |
Loomis, I loved Disraeli Gears at the time of it's release (Fresh Cream as well), and played songs off both albums in my High School garage band. But you have just pointed out Ginger's tendency to play for his own benefit, not the song's or the band's. As I said earlier, he played every song the same, which is not a compliment ;-). Did you read how Atlantic Records President Ahmet Ertegun characterized Disraeli Gears when it was submitted? "Psychedelic horses**t" ! My eyes were opened, and my teenage brain blown, when my band opened for The New Buffalo (only drummer Dewey Martin remaining from Buffalo Springfield) at a San Jose High School in 1969. Bobby's brother Randy Fuller was playing bass, and I became perplexed and uncomfortable when I could not for the life of me figure out why, in spite of the fact that that rhythm section appearing to be playing nothing special (unlike Ginger and Jack), TNB sounded and felt SO good. All of a sudden, in an epiphany, what I had heard and read about The Band hit home. Oh, NOW I get it! THE transformative moment of my musical life. That, and hearing J.S. Bach! shadorne, yup, Ferrone is a fine player, and Petty likes how he comes up with parts he says would never have occurred to him. Chad Smith is okay, but I really dislike the sound of piccolo snare drums (all they do is make a one-dimensional "popping" sound---no depth, no resonance), which is his sound. His snare drum sound ruined the Dixie Chicks album he played on (Taking The Long Way) for me. But that's just a matter of sonic taste, not style or quality. |
+1 bdp all excellent drummers! I agree about the importance of tasty groove drumming that just carries the song I think Steve Ferrone deserves a mention too https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk3N84ArTno and Chad Smith who is just a fantastic groove pocket drummer (note how Chad doesn't need an expensive kit to sound great - it is all about the drummer?) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dQghnflsBjE |
bdp: agree with you on jim capaldi and doug clifford--thanks for the validation. i raised grant hart because a non-punk friend of mine, who's a great pro-caliber drummer pointed out that hart's tempo and technique were very hard to replicate--he was very impressed with his cymbal bashing. in any case, i went back and listened to "disraeli gears," generally regarded as cream's masterwork and got derailed by the attention-grabbing drumming. despite the very wide song variety, baker uses the same 3/4 offbeat pound and quick drumroll on virtually every track; contrast with, say, jim gordon on "layla" where the beat is just seamless. |
Loomis, Jim Capaldi was a very fine drummer, very cognizant and respectful of the singer’s phrasing and dynamics, as well as the song's structure. Being a singer and songwriter himself, that’s not surprising, I suppose. Now that you mention Jim, perhaps it was he and not Winwood would enlisted the services of both Roger Hawkins and Jim Gordon for Traffic! Grant Hart I’m not familiar enough with to have formed an opinion. From afar, he appeared to be just another punk drummer. Speaking of that, did you ever read what the great Tony Williams said upon hearing Marky Ramone? "Now THAT’S a great drummer" ! I don’t think he was being facetious, either. Doug Clifford was adequate for the music of Credence, but was what I consider a "pedestrian" musician. No original ideas, no personality, not very interesting. I feel the same about Springsteen’s Max Weinberg. Call me a snob! Since this thread was asking about solos, but has taken a detour (sorry ;-), there is one drummer who should be mentioned. He was a big band drummer, and they were expected to play, and were routinely called upon to do so, a solo at some point in a live show. Dave Tough was loved by the other musicians in the Benny Goodman, Tommy Dorsey, Woody Herman, and Artie Shaw bands in which he played, in spite of his limited abilities as a soloist. They loved how he made the band swing harder and better than did ANY of the great drum soloists, and how his accompaniment made each of them and the entire band sound better. The Rock ’n’ Roll equivalent would be Ringo Starr, who, though he couldn’t/can’t solo like Neil Peart, John Bonham, or Ginger Baker, was a great ensemble player, making the song itself sound as good as possible. Those are different talents, and rarely are both found in a single player. Speaking of players of songs, here is just a small sampling from the over 18,000 (!) that Buddy Harman played drums on: "Pretty Woman" by Roy Orbison "Little Sister" by Elvis Presley "Ring Of Fire" by Johnny Cash "Crazy" by Patsy Cline "King Of The Road" by Roger Miller and a favorite of mine, "Stand By Your Man" by the great Tammy Wynette. So tasty! The drumming, I mean ;-). |
I saw Keith Moon live twice (’68 and ’69), and he was as punchy and exciting as any drummer I’ve heard live. The only other I saw like him was Buddy Miles in The Electric Flag (with Mike Bloomfield, of course). A great drummer makes a band his, and both of those guys did just that. Zak Starkey (Ringo’s kid) is doing a great job in The Who now. I too love Mick Avory, Loomis (saw him live twice also). Did you know that’s not he playing drums on the early Kinks hit singles ("You Really Got Me", "All Day and All Of The Night", etc.) and some album tracks? That was British studio drummer Bobby Graham, a great player. Mick, believe it or not, preceded Charlie Watts in The Stones, though only in their very early rehearsal-only period, never gigging with them. Charlie himself is an odd player, somewhat stiff and awkward. But he has his charm, Jim Keltner feeling The Stones are Charlie’s band, not Keith’s (and certainly not Mick’s!). Once I became aware of studio-only (mostly) drummers, their style of drumming became my gold standard---taste, economy, and musicality. Hal Blaine of course, Kenny Buttrey (Nashville---Dylan, Neil Young’s harvest album), Earl Palmer (New Orleans Jazz drummer, but heard on many 1950’s Rock ’n’ Roll records), Roger Hawkins as I’ve already mentioned, Jims Gordon (Joe Cocker, Delaney & Bonnie, Derek & The Dominoes, Traffic, Dave Mason’s great Alone Together album) and Keltner (Ry Cooder, Bill Frisell, John Hiatt, Little Village, Randy Newman, George Harrison, The Traveling Wilbury’s), D.J. Fontana (early Elvis), David Kemper (Dylan, T Bone Burnett. Like Keltner, he’s from Tulsa Oklahoma), Buddy Harman (Nashville studio great), Al Jackson Jr. (Booker T & The MG’s), lots of others. What made Levon Helm particularly unusual was that he played like a studio drummer, but was in a self-contained group. |
I am a drummer and I don’t really like drum solos as a groove feel is more important to me and just as difficult as all the crazy technical skill. Here is an example of both groove and tremendous technical skill and independence and good mix of musical polyrhythms (Latin Cuban style) - the groove is really solid and he accents to highlight the different rhythm feels. About half way through he goes real deep with groove - here he is playing with time with hands (behind the beat) but the feet marking time perfectly. This is exactly how it is should be done! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wvBRTHxsXCw |
wow. i can sorta fake string instruments and keys, but have a genetic drumming deficiency, so gh's and bdp's perspective is ear-opening. my thoughts at large: 1. charlie watts is slightly overrated but very disciplined--he lacks power but is supposed to be behind the beat, which is supposed to be the formula 2. always dug keith moon, despite his obvious excesses--he swings. i need to listen more critically to his later stuff to see where he drags. 3. the best drummers to me, outside of the godlike blakey/elvin jones ilk, were bobby elliott from the hollies and mick avory from the kinks, in the sense of service to the song. thank you sincerely for your thoughtful responses. |
Loomis, I completely agree about John Bonham---"behind-the-beat" is exactly right! Some drummers like to be the engine at the front of the train, pulling the band along. Bonham was at the back of the "pocket", pushing the band from behind. The players I like are those who play in the deepest part of the pocket---dead center. Listen to "634-5789" by Wilson Pickett; Roger Hawkins (with David Hood on bass) creates the deepest, most incredible pocket I’ve ever heard! The great studio drummer Jim Keltner (Ry Cooder arranges his recording sessions around Jim’s availablility!) says he wished he played more like Roger! A moment in time has a little "spread", a visual representation being a "V". The deepest part of the pocket is the bottom of the V. Some drummers play a little in front of (before) that moment in time, some a little behind (later than). Bonham was the latter. When I played a three-night gig with Jonny Kaplan in late 2007, after the first night he asked me to play a little "later", that I was at the front of the pocket (Jonny has a great sense of timing). What?! I listened for what he heard as we played night two, after which he asked for it still later. It wasn’t until I was driving home from the final night (with which he was finally satisfied!) that it occurred to me---Jonny learned Country-Rock not from Dylan, The Band, The Byrds, or any other American outfit, but from the Let It Bleed-era Stones. Charlie Watts is another drummer who plays late (is it a British thing?!), and that’s the way Jonny likes it (he’s a huge Keith Richards fan). Loomis characterized Bonham as ’lumbering", which is an apt adjective. I hear that trait in a lot of drumming, partly because of the tendency of young drummers to "bury the beater" (leave the bass drum pedal’s beater head mashed into the drum’s batter head after a note is played, rather than letting it rebound away), and to play every bd stroke as hard as possible, using no dynamics, and without "feathering". That’s the manner in which Bonham played bd. To me, it sounds like every time the bass drum beater is buried in the head time abruptly stops, then starting again anew. The sense of flow is disrupted, the music becoming disjointed. Early in The Who’s recorded output and live shows, Keith Moon was at the leading/front edge of the pocket (sometimes completely out of it, way out ahead of Pete and John). As his drinking increased, he started playing pretty far behind the pulse/beat/pocket, ruining The Who for me. I hear it starting on "Live At Leeds", and in full bloom by the time of "Won’t Get Fooled Again". Early in The Beatles career, Ringo’s playing was right where I like it---deep in the pocket. Unfortunately, his playing too took a nosedive, timing-wise, as he got older (and started drinking with Keith!). Listen to Ringo playing along with Levon Helm in The Last Waltz in 1976; Levon is in deep pocket, Ringo is way late, sluggishly following along behind, like the caboose on a train, not at the front like an engine. Sad. |
I agree that his style can be over the top, but he has been very influential. Here's an interview from 1978(?), https://www.moderndrummer.com/article/april-1978-carmine-appice-leadin-way/ As a point of reference, this is my most amazing drum solo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXCu8qm_TrI |
interesting thread--i'm likewise enjoying bdp's perspective regarding "musicality" as opposed to chops. he's not wrong about ginger baker--cream (esp. their live stuff) always sound less-than-seamless to me and they actually sound their best on the (rare) occassions he underplays. i've also come to appreciate ringo more--his self-effacing, understated approach is too often mistaken for lack of technique. otoh, i seem to be the only led zep fan in the world who just never got into bonham, who always seemed lumbering and behind-the-beat. |
For a slightly more balanced opinion of Ginger Baker's drumming: http://drummagazine.com/10-ways-to-sound-like-ginger-baker/ The analysis focuses on his work with Cream, but it does touch on his subsequent (and lengthy) career. |
I believe I’ve already told ya’ll this story Evan Johns told me when I recorded with him in Atlanta GA. If so, it bears repeating. Evan’s good friend and sometimes bandmate, the late, great guitarist Danny Gatton (Vince Gill, himself a fine guitarist, nicknamed him "The Humbler"!) played his first gig with a new drummer. After the first set, Danny had this exchange with the guy: Danny to the drummer: "You know all that fancy stuff you’re playing?" Drummer: "Yeah". Danny: "Don’t". When I was living in Sherman Oaks CA in the late-90’s, I used to bump into Billy Swan (remember his 1970’s hit "I Can Help"?), who was playing rhythm guitar and singing harmony in Kris Kristofferson’s band. He told me when Kris was just starting to play big shows in the late 60’s and early 70’s, everybody told him he needed to hire a drummer. Coming from coffeehouses and folk clubs, Kris had never had one. So, he arranged to have a drummer audition. Unfortunately, it being the late 60’s, and all drummers thinking they had to play like Ginger Baker, or Keith Moon, or (shudder) Carmine Appice, the drummer pounded his way through Kris’ songs, playing way too loud and way too busy, very unmusically walking all over the other bandmember’s parts. That’s what Clapton was talking about. Billy said that soured Kris on drummers, and that he never again auditioned one. Clapton now has one of the best drummers in the world, the incredible Steve Gadd (he created the drum part in Paul Simon’s "50 Ways To Leave Your Lover"). Now THAT guy can not only play a song as musically as anyone, but can solo like Buddy Rich, a very rare combination. And, his drums and cymbals also sound great! |
Hello again, bdp. I appreciate your ongoing commentary. Getting later in the day for me and don't have the energy for the more deserved detailed reply. I completely get the distinction you are making between "technicality" and musicality...not that the two must be mutually exclusive. Good to hear a pro appreciating Mr. Starkey. He served the song and not his ego. Maybe nominate those splendid few seconds of him soloing in The End on Abbey Road for inclusion here. Mighta been a bit of irony or sarcasm in the minds of the Beatles at the time of the recording but works for me, regardless. Ginger was certainly no model citizen but I don't think a complete music Neanderthal, either. I did find some irony in Mr. Buddy "Personality" Rich being the one to call him a clown. Don't expect it will change your opinion (not trying to) but in case you've not seen this, might be of interest...maybe cast Peter Edward Baker in a slightly different light. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad7D5JsKSjw&ab_channel=JoãoBorges |
I’ll concede one point, ghosthouse---I really should not have used the adjective miserable, that’s excessive. In The Last Waltz, Eric Clapton talks about hearing Music From Big Pink for the first time, and how it changed everything for him---after hearing it he told Jack and Ginger he was done with Cream. He says, and this is almost an exact quote: "Music had been going in the wrong direction for a long time. I heard MFBP, and thought ’Well, someone has finally gone and done it right’ ". The Band’s Levon Helm was an unusually musical drummer, as musical as anyone I’ve heard. He also had technique (unlike another musical drummer, the unfairly maligned Ringo Starr), but used it to create great song parts. Another such drummer was (he’s still alive, but retired) the great Roger Hawkins. He was the drummer in the Fame Studios Rhythm Section (aka The Swampers) in Muscle Shoals Alabama. He can be heard on all those great Jerry Wexler-produced records on Atlantic---Aretha Franklin, Dusty Springfield, Wilson Pickett, Solomon Burke, Arthur Alexander, Percy Sledge, and many others. Dylan used him, recording in Muscle Shoals specifically to get the "loose (relaxed, Southern feel) but tight" sound that he, bassist David Hood, pianist Barry Beckett, and guitarist Jimmie Johnson created. Roger went on to play in Traffic, at one time alongside another fantastically musical drummer, the aforementioned Jim Gordon. Two of the best drummers in the world, in the same band! Steve Winwood has great taste in musicians. Why then was Ginger Baker in Blind Faith? With Clapton! What other musicians don’t like about drummers is their lack of musicality. The parts a lot of drummers play are designed, not to serve the song, or to selflessly make another musicians playing sound as good as possible, or to make for good ensemble, but rather to display their own chops, to impress everyone (especially other drummers) with their technical ability. Those parts don’t necessarily make for bad music (Johnny Barbata’s parts in his The Turtles recordings are fantastic both technically and musically. He later played in Jefferson Starship, but hey, a guy’s gotta eat ;-), but often do. Jeff Beck is a fantastic guitarist, so I was mystified when he had Carmine Appice (Vanilla Fudge, Rod Stewart) playing with him. Carmine is a drummer will highly developed technique, but poorly developed musical sensibilities. His playing is so "vulgar" it actually embarrasses me. IMO opinion Ginger Baker was a rather selfish (I hope that does not sound too pejorative) musician, whose song parts are not only unmusical, but also really goofy---he "flops" along, in the time sense. He played every song the same, not considering what the song needed from a drummer. He was also a somewhat unpleasant fellow, though probably not as much so as Buddy Rich ;-). |
bdp - I still might not agree that Ginger’s Toad solo is "miserable" BUT I do appreciate you taking the time to explain why you think it so. I also value the opinion of working musicians a ton (musicians as distinct from rock start wannabes, as you pointed out in another post). Barring physical hearing damage, seems to me, through practice, y’all have developed much better "auditory discernment" (for lack of a better phrase). Ginger’s cymbals never seemed that bad to me but now I am interested in making that comparison to Levon Helm’s sound. You’ve repeatedly criticized Cream for a lack of ensemble playing. There is certainly well documented history between Baker and Bruce to support this. BUT I don’t think it tells the full story on them. I can believe there were shows where the civil war was all too evident. Check out the 2005 Royal Albert Hall performances...I think those show a different/better side of that (now much more mature) trio. |