Best building material for vibration free shelving

@boxer12,

Here I am. I’m a big proponent of carbon fiber. I’ve dealt with Dragonplate for years. Never tried their balsa products. I use carbon fiber extensively in my system. Plan on using it in my TT project.

Has anyone used carbon fiber to set their equipment on? I noticed dragonplate has balsa sandwiched inside two layers of .030 carbon fiber. It looks like it would work well for smaller platforms (strength wise), but not sure how effective that would be. 

I know this might not be practical for most people but when I placed my Denon 51f turntable on my handmade console with a 250# granite top there was a very notable improvement from the 3/4" ply shelving it previously perched on. I say push the boundaries of normal and use some different materials. There I had my say! Good luck 

@williewonka ,

That's a great project. Thanks for sharing!

I picked up my brass/bronze feet (cones) today. I had them turned at a local metal fabrication shop the make bearing, spigots etc...

I purchased the bronze and brass from Metal Supermarkets - they have locations globally.

I had three diameters
- 2 1/2" bronze
- 2" brass
- 1 1/4" brass
- 3/4 " brass

The angle of the cone is 10 degrees from horizontal. I kept this angle shallow (less pointed) because from what I had read, maintaining mass seemed to be quite important.

The vertical shoulder
- on the 2" and 2 1/2" cones is 3/4"
- on the 1 1/4" cone is 3/8"
- on the 3/4" cone is 3/16"

Botom line - they improved the clarity and details and expanded the image over the Beech cones I had purchased

Bass seemed to have more tone without the loss of detail or texture

Some instruments seemed to be placed further back into the image - so they seemed to get lost a little compared to the Beeach cones

The Beech cones sounded a little richer in that you could hear more of background instruments

I think it’s all a matter of taste as to which ones each individual would prefer

There was no difference between the Brass and the Bronze cones - except the bronze was a little more expensive - there was also very little difference in appearance.

The Brass/Bronze cones (5 sets of three) cost a little over $330 CDN.

The wood cones (3 sets of three) cost $100 CDN

All of the cones worked great on my Granite/Foam/MDF shelves.

The brass/bronze cones looks so much nicer than the Beech wood

Hope you find this info useful

This isn’t an exhaustive comaprison into Feet/Cones - just something I was able to try to satisfy my curiosity:-)

I will try to post pictures in a couple of weeks on my system page

Regards - Steve

Thanks slaw4. I will do just that.

Mike

@skyscraper,

I’m sorry for not replying to your earlier question.

I’ve posted a number of times on various threads on my ideas of isolating and /or decoupling which I believe would benefit you to research. If you want, look at my virtual system page. While it is in an ongoing state of testing and not complete, it will give you a visual idea of the direction I’m heading.

Good luck.

rcronk5, thanks for you relaying your sound engineers advice and your accompanying explanation. I will go ahead and fill the spaces in to suppress potential reverb effects. I enjoyed your Jerry Lee Lewis  "Whole lot of shakin' going on," reference too. 

kingrex,read your link and was impressed with the quality of your DIYset up underneath your turntable, and the diagrams provided. Nice work, you should be proud of. I'm thinking over your suggestions about using beads.

williewonka, I hope that shelf liner works as I'm headed that way for under my marble slab. And thanks for the link and explanation on draining internal vibrations. I hadn't quite understood that process, and how to drain them. Appreciate your explanations of your methods for doing this.

bdp24, hopefully Baltic Birch plywood is the way to go as you say. I've never heard of Torlyte before. 

geoffkait, I'd read years age there were concerns mahogany might be getting logged to extinction. So It's not surprising there's "fake" mahogany being imported. 

n80, VPI does draw attention to it's turntable isolation qualities and isolation feet. Also how could you over drain internal vibrations? You lost me there. I thought the idea was to get them down as much as possible. Is there such a thing as "good vibrations" (outside of the Beach Boys classic). OK, that's a bad joke, but I liked it.

lowrider57, I'll have to google those DH cones and the Herbies link too. I've checked them out before but don't remember much about them.

jnovak, good tip on accessing scraps of granite to use from yards that fabricate counter tops etc.. Been to several of them, but never connected the dots to ask for leftover scraps. I bet they sometimes toss them or their yards would be overflowing with leftovers and remains, Even the common double sink cutouts would be fairly substantial in size. 

Mike

Actually, granite can be some of the cheapest building material you can get. ALL fabricators have piles of leftover granite for a song. One day when time permits I'll take advantage of those "scrap" piles and try my hand at finishing the edges to make my own shelves. It would be a nice little business for someone to do. Shipping would be impossible though. Joe

Don't we have to be careful about over draining?

@lowrider57 - RE:

@williewonka; cool website, I bookmarked it.

Thanks - hope you find some useful ponters - However, some of the information on there is a little dated and my current thoughts on a few of the DIY postings may have changed a little - e.g. the ball bearing foot with sorbothane is one that will get updated

The Helix cables psotings are still current and I stand by the KLE Innovations reviews, but some of the older DIY cable postings will require some updating, which I will tackle this coming winter season

The Herbies Grungebuster Dots look very interesting and very reasonably priced - I might just give them a try - Thanks

Regards - Steve

@williewonka; cool website, I bookmarked it.
The Terrastone is a proprietary composite as are many of these offerings from specialty companies. They get good online user reviews and VPI recommends them as feet for their TT's.
   I don't know about the construction of the TerraStone Roller Bearing, but it is a brass ball. In a review it's compared to Symposium rollerblocks.
I will definitely report my results.

Regarding your footer design, Sorbothane is a substance which dampens vibration, but in your case, restricts the vibration from being drained. It also imparts its own colourations.
And I just re-read your post..

Then a fellow DIYer pointed out that the feet were not allowing internal vibrations from the transformer or airborn vibrations that might vibrate the cabinet, from being "drained" from the amp - he suggested I try brass cones or wood cones without any "cushion" material between them and the amp.

So, you already know this.

I know you're a DIY'er, but I've used some Herbies to protect the surface of the plinth w/o any audible side effects...
https://herbiesaudiolab.com/collections/system-isolation/products/thin-grungebuster-dots

@lowrider57  - many years ago when I first started looking into isolating my components I "created" my own low tech version of a foot using a steel washer and a hardened steel ball bearing - see...
http://image99.net/blog/files/0915f27ce41639dc6e4bf13bff2cbcbb-24.html

My thoughts were - I figured cone  anchors the component to the shelf, even if the small protective disks were used to prevent the spike digging into the shelf - whereas the ball is less prone to digging in.

It did a great job of isolating the component from the shelf, but a lousy job of draining vibration from the component, because of the sorbothane

Since I now use a piece of granite under the component, using  cone would have less tendency to dig in.
 
Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago when I started looking into "draining" and I thought - what if I remove the sorbothane and just used the washer/ball "foot" attached directly to the case of the component.

It does drain - e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g!

The resulting image was presented so far back behind the wall (i.e. behind the speakers ) it resulted in lower volume. I had to crank the amp to 1 o'clock (normally between 8 and 10 o/clock.) to bring the image back into the listening room But it was very detailed and crystal clear, it just sounded very far off. It also sounded quite "harsh" or "Brittle"

I found the wood cones have the same clarity and a warmer, but the image is more forward and as a result the listening level is back between  8-10 

I have also tried the washer with a glass marble - this is very much better than the steel ball - it does not have the harshness or image issues

The Terrastone looks as though the ball is either steel, brass or ceramic  (from the images on the web) - not sure what the body is made of though and cannot find any details - could be an alloy of some kind?

I've heard aluminum cones are very much like wood, but I have not tried any to date

Maplegate uses brass - like the Bear Paw,

I now have a guy turning some cones from brass and bronze in different sizes - fiigured I would give them a try, see which material provides the best sound.

Hope that helps - Steve

Yes Steve, keep me posted.

What kind of steel ball bearing feet did you use? You’ve got me worried since I ordered some footers today on a close-out...
https://edensoundaudio.com/shop/terrastone-roller-bearing/

Maybe I should have stayed with cones.

@williewonka , I don't believe Sorbethane or rubber should ever touch the component or footer. It may be used as a layer between a platform or plinth and the shelf.

I'm familiar with that link and I'm a believer. Geoffkait has also provided many comments on the benefit of draining vibration, (Yes our Geoff really does know physics).
I took his advice a while back and ordered DH cones. I'm using them under my PWT transport and the sound is more open and detailed with no harshness. BDR Racing cones sounded harsh. 

So, I'm now sold on isolating all my components in this manner.
 

If different types of wood and metal, not to mention polymers and various shapes have such a profound effect on SQ, one has to wonder why multi-thousand dollar amps and pre-amps don't come from the manufacturer with better isolation? 

And why don't critics pan them when they don't.

Seems fundamental. 

I mean, other than providing a firm level surface, why should I have to spend time, money and effort trying to make a $5000 component sound right.................unless that's where the fun is...............

@lowrider57 - a couple of weeks ago I had feet that had a layer of sorbothane between them and the amp and they seemed to isolate the amp from the shelf quite well.

Then a fellow DIYer pointed out that the feet were not allowing internal vibrations from the transformer or airborn vibrations that might vibrate the cabinet, from being "drained" from the amp - he suggested I try brass cones or wood cones without any "cushion" material between them and the amp.

Take a look at this site on drainage and isolation
http://www.symposiumusa.com/tech1.html

I now have wood feet under the amp and the improvement in sound changed the mind of this old skeptic :-)

I’m now having brass and bronze cones made to see how they change the sound.

I did try steel ball bearing feet, but the result was far too harse and bright and the image was pushed far in the distance - the wood cones are a little  more forward.

I have also used glass marbles mounted in a steel washer and the effect is a little brighter and more detailed than the wood, but no where near as harsh as the steel ball bearings

I’ll kjeep you posted as to how the brass/bronze cones turn out

Hope you find this useful - Steve

That’s weird. I’ve never ever heard of anyone using mahogany for an audio platform. I’ve used oak, grade AA white maple, pine, cherry, walnut, Baltic birch ply, and I’ve used African Blackwood in other application and Gabon ebony. But never mahogany. 

Hi Mike,  It sounds like you are on your way.  My hightech consultant emphasized the need to 'fill the hole' because all kinds of reverb gets collected in there.  I was advised to fill that hole above the TT and behind the TV.  Even if you just filled a pillow case with packing peanuts or puffy packing material or an old blanket and hang it behind the TV you can take the space away from the echo.  The biggest source of vibration comes first from your machines and second from the sound waves generated, especially the bass.  Where ever you can dampen those waves the better the room.  If those waves are 'in the box' they are banging up against your stylus and platter too.  If there is a whole lot of shaken going on I want it to be on the dance floor.

Shelves made of a material named Torlyte were all the rage in the UK in the 1980's. It's a very stiff, very low mass manufactured product specifically for hi-fi use. Russ Andrews still sells platforms and whole racks made of Torlyte, for not outrageous money.

I have heard that there is a lot of wood being imported from South America that is being called "mahogany" which isn't the real thing. I'd say if the price seems right, it probably isn't the real deal. Mahogany is expensive.

Maple is a known good sounding wood for use as a platform. Yet it is not a particularly dense wood. It is a medium density wood. Mahogany is much denser, for example. One of the best Woods for sound, but not really for a platform, is Gabon ebony, a particularly dense wood and also very resonant. I think balsa would be interesting for a platform, a very thick slab of balsa.

@williewonka, thanks for the info. I've been reading that the density of the wood is the main criteria for isolation and preventing transfer of vibration. As you stated, porous wood will result in resonances and less isolation.

I built a shelf for a heavy SS amp using finished ash from Lowes. I doubled it and used wood glue to create a 3 inch platform. I then used Herbies soft dots underneath.
   The wood looked beautiful, but was not very dense like maple. However, it had a nice tonal quality.
 

Actually, we DO know what wood Baltic Birch plywood is made from. Can you guess? ;-). It is the wood preferred by serious DIY speaker and subwoofer builders, and by a number who have made bases for their Thorens TD-124 tables (Art Dudley built his with BB). The 3/4"/19mm plywood is made of 13 very thin ply's, each ply cross-grain orientated relative to the ply on either side. Two pieces of BB with constrained layer damping between them makes a great shelf, turntable base, and/or speaker enclosure. 

@lowrider57 - the difference between various woods depends on their grain. Oak has two common varieties white and red and while both are considered harwood they have very different properties.

I’ve forgotten which is which, but one of them is actually much more porous than the other and would result in resonance from airborne vibrations

For feet there are several good hardwoods to choose from - like ash, maple, beech ebony and rosewood, but again they have quite different properties.

The verdict is still out on man-made products

Problem with hardwoods used for shelving is they tend to resonate with a different frequencies. To prevent resonance you can glue two or more pieces together, but you have to clamp them tightly

An easier way to successfully eliminate most all of the vibrations, I have found that if you place a layer of drawer liner on the shelf and then something heavy on top of the drawer liner - I use a granite tile, but a butcher block will work, then the "sandwich" formed prevents a great deal of airborne vibrations from resonating.

Any type of plywood is not a great solution mainly because you do not know what woods have been used in their contruction. Solid wood is better, but more expensive.

Marine ply is perhaps better than most because it is well constructed with quality wood and very good glue.- but it is expensive

Hope that helps

The use of beads to isolate the plates was a pretty big gain in reducing internal and external noise transmission.  In my earlier models you can see a simple stack of acrylic on corian with 3 beads separating them.  The TT just sits on top.  It does more than you think.  Way before all that I just sat it on a sheet of 5/8 quality plywood.  My preamp still sits on just that. Plywood.  My DAC and server are on a piece of corian with my isolating bead on a square of corian on a piece of loose felt.  Not the sticky back type.  I got the corian as waste from a second ha d reuse shop.  The acrylic from tap plastic.  A drill press helps to make good holes, but clamp the 2 pieces together and just drill 3 holes strait through.  A small hole.  Them take a larger bit and dimple the hole a little larger to hold the bead.  If you screw up, reclamp it, drill another hole next to it. 

https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/the-audio-vault/diy/43633-rp6-hot-rodded-with-remote-motor-mount

This is a link to my TT and its development.  Its actually pretty darn nice now.  Rivals my very nice digital setup.  

rcronk, yours is the exact situation I've got here. What I figured on doing is to raise the flat screen TV which covers the existing opening, only high enough to make a space for my VPI turntable to set, and high enough to be able to remove it's dust cover. I was going to leave the remaining unused space behind the flat screen open. I figured that would be a good area for heat from the electronics shelved below to dissipate. I hope that open space doesn't create audio side effects like you've experienced. If so I may have to try some of the treatments you've done. Thanks for the heads up.

The existing box is completely framed in with 2x4's and is made out of 1/2" plywood. So it will probably vibrate like crazy. Hopefully using my leftover marble slab with rubbery shelf sheeting under it will handle this issue adequately for the turntable. The rest of the shelves will be built underneath the current opening and will be of Baltic Birch and constructed as some here suggested and I've outlined above.

Gawdbless ,any idea of what the resonant qualities of bamboo are?

Geoffkitt, one of the  advantages of Baltic Birch plywood, I'm guessing, is the plys' grains are cross matched, each plys' grain going in opposite directions. I would hope this would damp resonant vibration. I'm only venturing an uneducated guess here though. We'll soon see.

Mike

"@n80 perhaps you might have an answer?"

No. I have a basic understanding about different types of wood but no real knowledge about which characteristics are best for audio. The total of my experience consists of sorbothane, walnut and MDF.

In fact, it seems that the waters are very muddy in regard to anchoring vs isolation of various components.

I’m surprised no one has mentioned it (or maybe I missed it) but there are viscous fluid dampers for various types of machinery and sensitive equipment. I’d assume someone makes these for audio equipment. The ones I recall for machinery were terribly expensive.

I just finished converting a built-in box or cove that held a big old TV.  It put an open box in the room and is a nightmare for audio perfection.  After lining the sides and top with carpeting I have add 12' x 12" accoustic tiles to back and corners.  The base is a 3/4" plywood sheet that sits on braces on each side.  I built a laminate of my own.  First layer is 1/4" cork, then a layer of rubbery shelf sheeting, then carpet, then a 3/4" finished poplar board (well varnished), then the 2' x 1' ceramic tile that I glued a layer of felt to the back so it would not scrape the wood.
My TD-160 now sits on Vibrapod risers that sit on this sandwich that has NO significant vibrations at all.  If you don't have a slab of marble the 2' x 1' pieces are about $3.00 each and easy to stack a few up if you want the real heavy weight.  A slab of marble would not be any better performer than a well thought out layering and lamintion.
Add on:  instead of spikes on my 4 foot homemade towers I have baking pans that fit the 12" x 18" footprint of the 100+pound speakers and filled them with sand.  On a carpeted, poured concrete basement floor the vibration issue is 'dead' in the sand.  

“With regard to a wood platform or plinth, is it possible to make an educated guess as to the sonic effect between different hardwoods?”

>>>>All things being equal a thicker platform should perform better than a thinner one because it’s stiffer. Stiffness is required to bending forces, one of the isolation directions. Of a platform is used in conjunction with Springs the type of wood is not very important because the wood platform, as well as the component, is isolated from vibrations coming up from the floor. Also, any vibration that occurs on the wood platform, including acoustic vibration, can be easily dealt with by applying damping. Another variable is type of cones under the platform and under the component that is on top of the platform. How the wood is cut, with the grain or cross grain, should be audible. There is also the beauty of the wood to consider, e.g., Walnut, Maple, Cherry.

@gawdbless , I'm using that exact bamboo board turned upside down. It was recommended on a thread a while back.
I have seen better quality bamboo cutting boards, but this one is strong. It's under my 60 lb. tube amp. I'm in search of the right kind of footers, haven't found them yet.

@williewonka, thanks, the cones are a similar style. I guess there's no way to predict the audible difference between beech and oak as footers.

 With regard to a wood platform or plinth, is it possible to make an educated guess as to the sonic effect between different hardwoods? The difference between a hardwood and softwood is obvious IME.
 @n80 perhaps you might have an answer?

n80,
If you want to try something cheap, try one ceramic ball in each of the walnut feet. You'll only want to use three (not four) feet with the ball high enough above the walnut so it's the only thing making contact with the bottom of your component. Put a very small dot of blue tack at the bottom of the dimple in each of the walnut feet to keep the ball from rolling. Grainger sells ceramic balls. 

n80, you speak the truth. Years ago old pine, especially heartwood could be used for flooring due to its hardness, for example. Couldn't imagine any pine you find nowadays at the big box stores being used for that purpose. 

Mike

I'll be honest, I think the idea that different woods will change anything in a measurable, repeatable fashion is a bit of a stretch. I'm not saying different woods don't have different characteristics that can be heard, I'm just saying that when you are talking about the characteristics that effect the transmission of vibration I'm not sure you can be specific species to species. Every tree within a given species is different. Different ages of tree have different ring and grain structure. The conditions under which a tree grows affects its structure as well. And this is not to mention how the wood was dried, cut and treated. All of these things can have significant affects even on macro things like furniture, axe handles, baseball bats etc. Such effects would even be greater on micro issues like vibration transmission.

So in my mind a young harvested, poorly dried and treated specimen of one species considered to be the best might be inferior to a specimen of a less well regarded species that has better grain structure due to age, growth rate as well as better preparation and finish. 

Think about basic pine. Young, high growth rate yellow pine is soft as putty (maybe that would be a good thing??) whereas the heart of very old pine that died while the tree was standing can literally be hard as rock...sometimes it won't even split down the grain.

@lowrider57 - I have not tried the wooden blocks.

The cones look very similar to those beech cones I purchased and cost less, but they are Oak and it might depend if it's white oak or red oak.

I like maple for audio purposes - quite hard with a very uniform and tight grain.

I also hear ebony and rosewood is vrey good

I'll keep you posted as to how the brass and Bronze feet turn out, but at this point in time the beech feet sound great

Cheers - Steve

Kingrex,  I've been happily listening to my $790.00 pair of Dahlquist DQ-10's since 1976. So you're way ahead of me with with your Pure Audio Project Trio 10's. Since you mentioned the Trio 10's, I went and looked up a review on them, which coincidentally referenced my DQ10s a couple times. The  Trio 10's got an excellent review  and are striking in apppearance, so congrats on that purchase.  

Gawdbless, thanks on the link. 

Mike

You know, I know a dealer who sat his amps on little tables from IKEA because they were made like cardboard.  Corrugated paper between a couple thin plywood pieces.  He said it was like an air gap.  Poor man stand, but pretty effective he thought. 

How about this?

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00233429/

Wish I could afford $10k speakers.  I just connected my Pure Audio Project trio 10 last night.  Breaking in and tuning now.

My TT sits on my shelving stand.  Nothing fancy.  I built the base and plinth so I took the time there to isolate.  Have fun. 

Italian, thanks for sharing your experience.

Slaw, I've asked a few questions here. Bear with me. I'm uncertain which one are you referring to as misguided. 

Bdp24. I looked at the Townsend pods you recommended and will track down the Youtube video.

Right now, what I need to find is basic. I will have metal clips holding up the shelves. The clips will be on standard vertical tracks, commonly used for adjustable height book or cabinet shelves. I'm sure you've seen them. The flat portion of each clip the shelves will sit on is approximately 3/4" x 1/2".  I want to find some vibration absorbent material to sit on the clips between them and the shelves. I was thinking maybe 3/4" by 1/2" pieces of sorbothane. But, since you mentioned sorbothane doesn't isolate to low enough frequencies there must be something else to use, maybe silicone as suggested above.  

In the interest of full disclosure, the top shelf to hold the turntable is already in place. It was built years ago to hold one of those old fashioned enormous wide screen televisions we were stuck with before flat screens came out. I am building the rest of the shelves for the amp, preamp etc underneath that pre-existing shelf. I will be placing my marble slab on that pre-existing shelf with a shelf liner under it, as suggested by Williwonka above to help defeat vibration and resonances. I wonder if bdp's suggested constrained liner damping might work for this as well under the marble. 

I will later find feet for each component that hopefully defeat any remaining resonances or vibration. Any suggestions on what material might be advantageous to sit between the metal clips and the shelves would be helpful

Kingrex, I wish I could afford something like an electron microscope stand. But I'm hopefully purchasing some exorbitant for me, $10,000 speakers next week, so I have to not bankrupt myself otherwise. If my late wife was still in the land of the living, I guarantee you I would be doing none of this. I can hear her in my head saying "What do you mean you need an electron microscope table, what do they cost?" 

Tweak, sorry the train is so close to your home. I'll look up the Machina Dynamica Springs.  They sound interesting. 

Thanks again all.

Mike

Upsidasium

IME no matter ow much you spend vibration is inevitable. I live about a half mile from railroad tracks, and I can feel it through my concrete floor when a train rolls through. 

Significantly cheaper and superior is Machina Dynamica Springs. He has a variety to accommodate variouscomponent weights

BDP24 has some very good points.  

I hear pods pushed all over.  Some like them, others do not. Its gonna be hit or miss.  

I have a friend with a full set of SRA stands. Huge and heavy.  Vibration can be turned into heat and dissipated if done right.  

Electron microscope stands were the rage but kind of fell out.  Of course people like Mike Lavigne use them, but they are rebuilt with linear PS and other mods.  Far to expensive for the average guy.  

Build your stand.  Try Isopods.  Try my inexpensive feet. Make them with acrylic from tap plastic.   Something will jump out as right.

In all honesty,  I don't know I could make the first big step on my own.  Once your setup properly, the small tweeks become more apparent and easier to gauge as good or bad.  I guess my best suggestion would be, if the music is strident and hard, you probably have to much high frequency. Rhodium power cords were a problem in my system.  Try just plain pure copper. If the sound is flat and blotted, your stand will help.  Try footers of different types.  Spongy gel types will probably go the wrong direction.  

If you’re determined to build a structure for isolation I would turn to the Flexy Rack of yore. Contrary to popular opinion very rigid structures do not isolate as well as flimsy flexible structures. The easier it is to move an object in a given direction the better the isolation in that direction. Another example of a flexible structure is the Mana stand, also of yore, that employed multiple glass shelves on a rigid frame.