Back to the DAC

My Ayre Acoustics QX-5 Twenty streaming DAC is a superb DAC, as well as a superb streamer.   Happy listening. 

I’ll take some time tomorrow to figure out how to do that (post new thread). Thx for the encouragement. I’m looking for an answer that’s not another persons favorite component. I cant fault responders except say it doesn’t always appear to be pertinent to what was asked. 
 

I’ll try to be specific to my need. Thx. 

@tshark I think your question deserves its own thread. 

@hysteve When I installed my Jay Audio transport, even poorly mastered/recorded CDs took on life whereby I am keeping them (I have 15,900 CDs). Where I thought there was distortion is now just bad miking or has poor quality digital transfers. The average CD sounds great and the outstanding recordings are phenomenal (and that’s with my highly modified Emotiva DAC only previously described). This may also have to do with my phenomenal speakers (Von Schweikert VR9 SE MK2, upgraded). I read some other posts extolling the new LAiV Harmony DAC. This could be a real bargain just as my transport is.  

I wouldn't suggest to the OP a lesser quality transport but I'm keeping a Shanling ET3 for my 2nd system/living room.  It's good for the price and I've compared many transports.  

For reproduction of CDs, I extremely recommend the Jay's Audio CDt3 Mk3.  I've tried over a dozen cheap to expensive (PS Audio) transports over the past 5 years (recent change to separates).  It is vastly superior and beautifully built.  

As to DACs, I've tried older ones and generally found them wanting.  They were mostly lesser cost ones (the Topping D70S for example).  Also COS Engineering D1 and D2.  I've ordered the Lampizator Poseidon to be a one and done unit.  

In the meantime, I am using a fully discrete 2010 Emotiva XDA-1 DAC (their only discrete DAC) with extreme power supply (5 Sparkos regulators cost $47 each, caps, etc).  Also and Acme treated fuse.  Total cost for unit, parts and labor $1200. This is in a high end system.  I am getting near SOTA CD sound, better than I've heard streaming at a dozen audio shows.  The combination of DAC and transport is fabulous and yet I know it could be SOTA with a Lampizator (I heard my speakers with the Horizon).  

DACs keep improving generally.  A $2700 DAC LAiV Harmony got a very high recommendation.  An unusual R2R design with a reportedly more articulate, forward sound than R2R designs are known for.  I haven't heard it.  The T&A line is from a major manufacturer and the build quality is excellent.  I do not recommend the Weiss, dry and hard compared to the others.  The Lampizator Baltic 3 is also a good choice.  Don't know what the DCS Lina sounds like either.    

As to cabling, I am using lower cost digital cabling from my transport (step above Blue Jeans which is very neutral and a steal at $35) similar to the Westminster Labs lower end digital cable.  The analog XLR cable to my pre-amp is also lower cost but very good as well (I use Grover Huffman cabling throughout).  I will switch to an AES digital cable when my Poseidon arrives.  

I’m a real nubie regarding the nuances of separates vs integrated units. I have McIntosh MA8900 integrated amp with DA2 upgrade, a Naim Uniti Core CD ripper streamer, and Luxman D 07X SACD player, along with Von Schweikert Endeavour speakers. All cables/interconnects are high end. 
How do I know if the MA8900 DA2 is (very) good?  Do I use the DAC within the Luxman?  Would a specialty DAC be a good investment with my current set up? R do basic components need upgrading?

THX 

TShark Dallas TX

@audphile1 amen!

I used Bricasti M3 network card connected with high quality Ethernet cables for a while until I tried Aurender N200 via USB into the M3. Blew away using the network card. 
Internally, the M3 network card is connected to the board using I2S if I am not mistaken. In general, I2S was developed for internal connections and that is partly the reason why there’s no industry standard for thr pin configuration which in some units makes it a crapshoot selection a transport for it. Whether or not it’s the best connection is debatable. Fo me the USB out of N200 into M3 was in another league. 
 

So…when making blanket statements about what connection is best sounding you only show your lack of consideration and understanding of what the best connection on a given component is, out or in, for a particular listener, and why that is the case. Equipment compatibility and synergy is key. Especially for I2S that has more pin confirmations than California has raisins. Good luck to you. 

@tvad +1

@yyzsantabarbara lol, ya, I did the same thing, purchased the mic from Amazon and downloaded the free program. 3 minutes into I packed the mic back up and sent it back to Amazon, yes, I felt dumb! (Van BC, that’s where I originate from as well)

@rbstehno ok, have at ’er, wish I had a DAC as good as yours!

Mitch is from Vancouver area, and he remotely did genius level work on my room in California. We needed to fix my Thiel CS3.7 first. I could hear 1 issue, but he identified so many others.

I tried to do the DSP myself after starting to read his book. I was smart enough to realize how dumb I am in that realm. Luckily, he started offering the remote service. I no longer use his filters in my office. I have ugly acoustic panels and I moved things around. I also have different speakers in the room so a new set of measurements would have been needed.

Accurate Sound Reproduction Using DSP: Barnett, Mitch: 9781520977904: Amazon.com: Books

The headphone folks are also big fans for Mitch.

I am curious as to how my Livingroom system would sound with Mitches fitters. I am going to try it out once I have taken care of other matters.

Blanket statement? I’ll bet only 2% of these posters are able to test an Ethernet interface or an i2s interface. 
My Aurender is optimized for usb! If I had a $ for everytime I’ve heard that, I’d be rich. Years ago, I bought the top of the line Auralic over the Aurender and Lumin. And guess what, it was optimized for usb with femto clocks and that was feeding the best wyred 4 sound dac with the best aq diamond usb cable. I also had the gimmicks/tweaks like reclockers/etc that were optimized for usb.

I got rid of all that crap, got 1 of the best dacs available, used Ethernet, and the sound was much better, much much better.

Then a couple months ago bought the streamer with only an i2s and coax output so I can use i2s, another big improvement.

There is a reason the best dacs don’t have usb or have i2s and Ethernet interfaces.

@yyzsantabarbara Once I take my acoustic panels down (and fix the walls) I was thinking about using the YouTube guy on Pursuit of Perfection who offer a Dirac service, but I'd much rather keep it closer to home. Maybe I'll check it out sometime, thanks.

BTW - if one is interested in treatments without the treatments take a look at Mitch Barnetts offering for Convolution filters. Not sure if Aurrender supports it. Roon and JRiver support it.

Digital Room Calibration Services, Convolver, Headphone Filtersets (accuratesound.ca)

I agree that that source is the most important. However, when it comes to DACs I also feel it is the least important.  That is because for my money the laws of diminishing returns apply to DACs more than most components. 

I have a great local FM station and I have 3 tuners in 2 systems. The sonics are very good on all of them with 2 of them being modded vintage units.  The difference between those 2 and my Magnum Dynalab MD108T, which cost about $8k, is very large. It is not diminishing returns for my source tuners.

I only got 20+ hours on my new low cost Yggi+ OG DAC and the thing sounds great. I would need to go up very high in the cost scale to do better. Say $20k for a Playback Designs. I had a $15k DAC for a year and the OG is better. Point is that there can be great savings on the DAC. All the DACs discussed on this thread are more than capable performers. 

USB supposed to be the best input on the Yggi+. Ethernet is usually my least preferred on the DACs I have owned, especially when using something like a Sonore Optical Rendu streamer beats that easily.

I have used those DAC savings on my amps, and I found that there was a very big difference in performance. 

@rbstehno that’s a blanket statement and those are usually incorrect. 

@rbstehno My Aurender N200 is optimize for USB out, so I need select a DAC with solid USB implementation. My Wyred 4 Sound 2v2 SE DAC was the same. You have to match the equipment's compatibility.

What DAC is it you use?

In relation to a dac, if you are using usb, then you will never get the best sound quality from the dac. The best interfaces to a dac are Ethernet and i2s and some of the best dacs don’t even include usb. I have a highly rated dac that I used Ethernet for the past few years, which was much better than using the usb interface. I just bought a new streamer to allow me to use i2s and still keep my Roon server running in a different room. I2s was a nice bump of sq over using Ethernet.

@worldwidewholesales great insight, but I think for the general audio enthusiast and most general homeowners, it’s difficult to test hundreds of DAC, let alone 5, before purchasing.

It also seems that most DACs now come with a pre-amp function and optional network hook-ups.

Room treatments are super important as well, but many of us don’t have dedicated listening spaces so there has to be a balance between good acoustics and room functionality. I put up a bunch of panels in my room and I don’t think it sounds much better and they look like crap, so I think I’m going to take them all down now. Not looking forward to fixing/painting all those darns holes in my brand-new dry wall either!

And DAC prevalence over a pre-amp, that’s quite a revelation, thanks Bob.

Hi,

I would like to start this out by saying I am an importer for several different audio manufacturers and we do import DAC’s but really this is not why I am posting.

I’m seeing comments like “the best DAC” and really there is no best. There is personal preference. There is best matched to your system. There is best that you can afford. Also, if you have only owned five DAC’s, for example, then your opinion of best is based on 1/5.

I have personally A/B/A tested over 100 DAC’s. We will take our reference DAC and listen to three preferred songs. We will then switch over to the 2^nd DAC we are testing while giving it time to adjust and warm up. We will then listen to the same three songs and then go back to our reference DAC. No, it’s not a perfect test because when you’re moving equipment around, I personally believe it needs 24 hours to settle. If we really like the 2^nd DAC that were testing then we will leave it on for 24 hours and then go back to our reference DAC the next day. If the new DAC that were testing beats our reference, then that DAC becomes our reference.

I would look at DAC’s and say that they’re in different categories and decide what you need out of that particular DAC. Do you need a volume control/preamp? Do you need a built-in server streamer? These are all questions you should ask yourself before you make the purchase. What is the price point and what is your associated equipment?

Most importantly when you’re doing the testing are you doing it in a properly set up room? Have you dealt with the acoustics of the room because this is super important? For the record we don’t sell anything that has anything to do with acoustics. My reference room was set up professional and we had a person come in that works with recording studios and he set up my reference room acoustically. We are about to make a move to a new location and we needed to remove all the acoustic panels to do a home staging. It was an absolute reality check when all the acoustic treatments were removed. The room sounded horrible. Best case scenario, deal with the room acoustics first and then think about the DAC.

Last but not least. I was a firm believer that the preamp was the most important piece of equipment because it controlled the output voltage to your front end and to your amplifiers, which in turn controlled the speakers. However recently I started thinking that the DAC is more important because without the information that the DAC provides then it doesn’t matter how good the preamp is if the information isn’t there.

That’s my two cents so please don’t shoot the messenger. It’s just opinions.

Bob. Worldwide Wholesales.

@mrmanisundaram agreed, thanks.

@smallmouthrule yes, it is, but trying to move on from R2R and not so into tubes, thanks.

@duckworp at $20K for the CAD 1543 mkII and $33K for the Vitus SD-025 they oughta be good, outta my league I'm afraid!

Would highly recommend Rockna....not as well known, but outstanding.

Audio Mirror Tubadour V is excellent.

I see you are sorted. But in case others are reading, there are two European DACs worth thinking about, both north of $10k though:

1. the CAD 1543 mkII is an incredible R2R DAC with no streamer. In fact it is beautifully stripped down with a in-house designed internal power supply and mains cable, USB input only, RCA output only. Scott Berry, the engineer, sources the old Philips 1543 DAC chips and builds this pure no-compromise DAC by hand in Cambridge in England. It sounds incredible, the most analogue-sounding DAC I have heard.

2. Also the Vitus SD-025 is another DAC-only sublime sounding DAC, hand made in Denmark. Hans Ole Vitus used his high-end turntable to fine-tune and voice this DAC.

Thank you @audphile1, will do!

@navyachts congratulations!!!! I am confident you will be blown away.

Great choice!!!

Let us know when you get it from Bricasti and have your first listen. 

1st serial number is on back of M3 so no need to plug in. Firmware has to be powered to see version.

I was wisely advised to purchase the DAC (as is) and try living with the Bricasti house sound first, which is great advice. But money & logistics played a big part in this for me, so I am going for the SE, M1 Series II and the TFT display all at once, go big, or don’t go at all! So, direct from the seller to Joe. I still have my R26 DAC, but with now a big re-arrange in my living room so as to better accommodate my stereo, I will be down in the crawlspace with little time for musical pleasure any ways. No huge rush then, but great to know, thanks again!

@tvad OK, very useful info, thanks!

@tvad I am sending the DAC into the manufacturer for some tweaks.                  Do you think the display upgrade is worth doing? It's $500.

@tvad Yes, but I have an Aurender N200.

@audphile1 @tvad - ended up with a 2020 M1 with updated MDx around $4K.

Thank you both for all your help with this!

@audphile1 OK, thank you!

M3 should be $3500. Good option to start with but without selling it there’s no upgrade. M1 is a kick ass DAC and it will satisfy you for a long while with good upgrade path. Chord stack will most likely be slightly more analytical than the Bricasti.

Either one of these options will make you happy but I would bargain down the M1 a bit and go that route.

Or…wait for M1S2 to show up and shoot for that. 

@audphile1 OK, working up the scale: Briscati M3, with remote and updated MDx for $3800, Chord Hugo TT2 with Mscaller for around $6k or Briscati M1 for around $5K then upgrade to SE II for another $2500 - $3750 (don't know about the MDx upgrade on this one yet).

Knowing you have had a similar system to mine and are familiar with most of these products, which way would you go? 

@yyzsantabarbara 👍

I see you have a CODA #8 and a CODA preamp. Well, I can help there since I owned the latest CODA #8 and the CODA 07x. I no longer have those 2 since I upgraded to the CODA #16 and the Holo Serene preamp. This is a lot better than the #8 and the 07x. These 2 units are on my Yamaha NS5000 speaker and now the Schitt OG joins them. I initially tried the LIM in this system, and it was too warm. I would think you would feel the same but some people like it warm. The OG is breaking in but it has more sparkle on the top that I was wanting.

On my upstairs system I have the Benchmark HPA4 preamp, Sanders Magtech amp, and the Magnepan LRS+. I like the Magtech more than the CODA #8. I heard both the fresh out of the box Schitt OG and the fully broken in LIM on this system and they both sounded good. The OG had more details while the LIM had a warmer tone.

The DAC that Robert Harley of TAS was raving about was the OG that I got yesterday. The review is for the older version of the Yggi OG. It was upgraded to plus status after that review. It has potential, since I did some late-night listening yesterday with my RAAL CA-1a phone and the VM-1a tube amp and it was the best I have heard from it. Though the gain on the OG and the VM-1a is not a perfect match and not something I will use together.

If you were to get a NEW Yggi+ DAC from Schitt you would be limited to the LIM and MIB. The MIB is more similar to the OG that I got. I got the last OG they sold.

Since the OG sounded good with the LRS+ I am thinking I might upgrade the LIM to the MIB in a few months after I do some extensive listening.

BTW - I considered Briscati and Chord in the past. The Chord was intriguing because of the designer seemed innovative, similar in experience as Playback Designs, Rockna, and Schitt. There are a lot of companies taking a chip and shaping the sound. Like sticking drivers on a box. I like a bit of innovation for my gear.

@audphile1 +1 no Schiit! I like the way you cut to the chase! Yes, you have suggested the TT2 to me in the past. Maybe this is the way to go? Hopefully the re-sellers have a bit more on the ball than the Bricasti group I have been dealing with (or not dealing with in my case).

@blisshifi yes, we have chatted before and yes, I'm aware that the T&A DAC 200 is very highly rated. In turn, I just wanted to say I do not have any DSD content nor do I up sample. Regardless, how's pricing on the T&A these days?

Chord TT2 would be good. you can add Mscaler later. TT2 is good value on used market and is relatively easy to resell. Check sold prices on hifishark. 

@navyachts it’s all the same schiit. In my opinion, although these are decent DACs, they’re not on the level of your system.