Audiophile Loudness Wars—Too Much again!?

+1 itsjustme.  

DACs can have very high line output levels, up to 4V is not atypical for a balanced DAC’s XLR outputs. Compare this to a typical "audiophile" analog setup with a 0.5mV MC cartridge into a phono stage with 60dB of gain, netting 0.5V line output. That’s 18dB lower than the 4V DAC! That’s not just a huge difference - that’s a world apart.

All correct.  But the question is, why is this tolerated?  Its not hard to design a balanced out DAC with a proper output level (of course, with stuff all over the map its getting harder and harder to determine what "proper" is, but i would suggest between 1-1.5vRMS full output.

As to the MC - again, what we need there, and all my stuff could do it, even "back in the day" is the provision for > 60dB of gain.  I could provide up to 68dB, with a very low-noise, low-impedance balanced input stage.

The only problem was, again the wide variation in cartridges and components such that no one setting for MC or MM would be ideal for everyone.  So it could be custom set to whatever a dealer or customers wanted - by special order.

But if designers adhered to even nominal, de-facto standards there would be far less issue.  right now I'm designing a product that uses an unconventional part, which is great in many ways but, due to basic physics, will overload with an input of more that 4.25V p-p (divide by 2.82 for rms).  this means i MUST have optional pads or really bad things happen.  Pisses me off.

End rant :-)

You can’t please everyone, or optimize a component for every possible system. It’s perhaps not so much a matter of "hifi loudness wars" as it is "analog vs digital wars". DACs can have very high line output levels, up to 4V is not atypical for a balanced DAC’s XLR outputs. Compare this to a typical "audiophile" analog setup with a 0.5mV MC cartridge into a phono stage with 60dB of gain, netting 0.5V line output. That’s 18dB lower than the 4V DAC! That’s not just a huge difference - that’s a world apart. I believe those with tape decks can have similar issues.

Preamps in particular - analog audiophiles often find usefulness in high-gain preamps with up to 20dB or more (!!) of gain. That same gain level will be quite ludicrous when hooked up to a digital source. That’s when you get guys saying "I can’t go past 9:00 on volume before it’s blasting me out of the room".

Then beyond the preamp/source stage you have to match between sensitivity of your amps vs. speakers. So a worst case scenario of bad gain structure system building "it’s too loud as soon as I move the volume at all" would look like this:

* Balanced XLR DAC 4V
* Tube preamp 23dB gain
* High sensitivity high power amp 30dB gain (high power PP tube amps typically have the highest gains)
* High sensitivity speakers - upper 90s dB/Watt

The panacea is to learn gain structure and how to build a system that correctly meets your needs. So e.g. if you want to run both a low-output MC cartridge and a digital source, you’re more likely going to want heaps of gain in your phono stage (70dB or so), and a preamp with a modest 8dB - 14dB gain (or even lower).

Honestly, even as an analog guy I find preamps with 20+ dB of gain to be too much (though I do have very sensitive speakers downstream). You inevitably start hearing the noise floor from all that gain (again, on sensitive speakers and amps). And there’s still a surprising number of tube preamps with this amount of gain. I think this comes from the days when CJ and ARC would make "full function" preamps with an MM phono stage that *could* also run lower output MC cartridges by tapping into that surplus of line stage gain. But it was a bad match when the owner hooked up a digital source. Also this may come from the ubiquity of 12ax7 tubes & circuits. If you see a tube preamp with 12ax7 tubes in it - you KNOW it’s gonna have an absurd amount of gain.

Someone mentioned component matching.
I agree much of the issue centers on this. Especially if you are mixing tubes and solid state pre amps and amps.

can't speak to the issues re: separates but i adjust gain on my DAC and mixer (2 channels - 2 tt's) as needed and generally leave the volume on my integrated alone (at about 11 o'clock) unless i want to get Very loud. This is the best way i've found to keep volume consistent and under control, regardless of source 

thinking about many of the responses, i suspect we are confusing several issues:  gain, recording volume, use of limiters and compressors to increase average playback level etc.  Unless you are running a very unusual piece of equipment "more gain" will not cause those issues (such as **compression** or **loud playback levels**)  on its own.  It simply will play back louder for any given volume knob setting.

The only real issues are 1) lack of granular volume control and channel tracking when using only, say 12-->4 positions on the volume control.  The other potential (2)  associated problem is potential overload of any first preamp stage (only preamp stage(s) before the volume control is implemented - all others buffered by said volume control)

So' the definition of loundness means an increase of volume but imply a reduction of dynamic,
( increase of average power and decrease of
The final sound lost in matter in many case, the dynamic is the main criteria to save in live music...

Certainly not a necessary corollary.
too much gain is balanced by more attenuation in the volume control, with dynamic range handled absolutely proportionally.  Again, caveats to all the issues associated with conductive plastic volume pots....

G

If you think this is a problem, just buy less efficient speakers.

Hi everybody,

If we back to the end of the eighties ,most of the tube preamp were fitted with phono stage .

My favorite preamp like  Pv 8, Pv 9a from Conrad johnson were terrific in term of matters and dynamic....
The pot volume was rarely set over 9 o'clock  in normal listening..

So'  the definition of loundness  means  an increase of volume but imply a reduction of dynamic, 
( increase of average power and decrease of 
The final sound lost in matter in many case, the dynamic is the main criteria to save in live music...

It is just an "old school audiophile point of view" but the true is in between depending of listening habits...

Raymond

Get an inline stereo attenuator; then, just adjust it to get the reduction in gain that you’re looking for.

And use it instead for the volume control, and get rid of the unnecessary gain, noise, and distortion, introducing active preamp.

Cheers George

I have to wonder if the excess gain is in response to the jokers who think an amp is underpowered if they have to turn the volume control to 2:00 before their ears start to bleed.

Get an inline stereo attenuator; then, just adjust it to get the reduction in gain that you’re looking for. 

Setting up the system for the amount of gain you need or want is an important consideration. I can say that the loudness wars are real and the best equipment is the kind that grows on you not the stuff that just sounds loud on first listen.

Ah the loudness wars.

Don't ya just love it.

Too much gain, too much compression, too much clipping, too much volume. Too much of everything!

simple answer: turn down the volume. Does the same thing and easier than any of the methods described above - they are ALL resistive divider networks. Admittedly, the volume may track poorly at low volumes and most continuous volume controls are more colored than a pair of resistors (which is why i have not used them for new designs or in my own systems in years).
Now, on to your question; as always, "yes and no". :-)


yes, many components, notably DACs, put out a nominal voltage that is WAY above the unofficial "standard" of ~ 1Vrms line level at max volume. The new normal seems to be 2V rms. The worst offender i have seen is Theta (at least legacy Theta) at about 8V rms. This is enough to seriously over-drive the inputs of many pre-amps.

Why is this done?   Well, because enough people think the idea of "passive pre-amps with simply a passive volume control, is a good idea. So they give them lost of gain to play with. What do you know, the Theta DS-Pro DAC was derived form the earlier DS-Pre DAC/preamp. And in the electronics, apparently nothing changed.


I see the allure of a hgih quality passive attenuator in place of an amp; but only if you have the knowledge to ensure good impedance matching. These "DACs with power amps built in" solve that in spades.

But, in the end, you can just pad it down with the volume control. Its just a resistive divider, just like a gain attenuator would be (with a few caveats there for methods that IMO are worse yet).

Preamps i have designed, assuming the producers leave them mostly alone, have about 6-9 dB of gain typically.

G

Backert Labs preamps have 9db of gain.

Backert Labs – The preamp specialists

Easy to fix: make or purchase an in-line variable audio attenuator; and set to desired level of attenuation. 

@jbhiller,
Here a list, of five preamps that have gain control adjustments. Audible illusions, Rogue audio, Decware, Parasound, PS audio.

http://www.audibleillusions.com/products/l3-line-stage-preamplifier/

http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_RH5.htm

https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZTPRE.html

https://parasound.com/jc2bp.php

https://www.psaudio.com/products/bhk-signature-preamplifier/

Audiophile Loudness Wars—Too Much again!?

Best to remedy this is to use a dac that has inbuilt (digital domain at or above 75% level) gain control if you have one. If used below 75% volume you run the risk of "bit stripping" detail away.

And if your dac has no volume control, nothing worse for signal to noise ratio and final distortion, than heavily knocking back the "dacs output level" with an active pre because the active preamp or amp has too much gain

That’s why passive pre’s are the best and least colored, great if impedance matching between input to output is observed to be no less than 1:10 ratio.
And also active preamps ones Schiit make are very little gain, and also can be switched to passive.

Cheers George

I think when it comes to DACs and other digital gear, the differences in decoding are immaterial. There are no "musical" dac chips etc, its 1's and 0's. The level of "jitter" or other artifacts in even low end digital gear is well below audible levels.

The differences in sound you might actually hear are largely attributed to the output stages, and to gain a perceived sonic advantage, or to justify prices, you get some seriously overbuilt output devices which leads to excess gain.
You did the right thing by using a lower output tube. The other option would be to plug directly to the amp, but that would only work if the component has some kind of volume control, which many do.

If you are going to go the separates route, skip the DAC and just get a basic cd player or streamer and a really good preamp. 

Agreed jtcf.   I just put 12au7s across V1-V8 in my tube DAC, which specifies 12ax7s and 12at7s.  I dislike messing with what the designer intended but I have gain coming out my ears over here. 

Nobody needs it. Lower gain tubes help a little, if one has tubed components. My amp has adjustable gain thank God.

Yes, and I wish I had a dollar for all the times people tell me, well buy a preamp with gain adjustment.  Sure, they exist but I don't think even premium ubiquitous brands, like Audio Research, offer the feature. 

The digital side is horrendous in my view.  Who needs all this gain? 

I agree. Many digital components have too much gain for many systems. Many amps are designed to be very sensitive, having too much gain.

Component matching is key.