Audio Science Review = Rebuttal and Further Thoughts

@jerryg123 - well @noske did not overtly call Americans idiots… it was a nuanced comment.

There is something that I find off putting with having a laugh track to tell one when the funny parts happened.

The movie Kenny, about a fellow working for the porta-potty company “Spash Down”, is a good example of nuanced humour.

Don't worry mate, I'll be extra polite to you from now on. 😂

another nasty lil bugger. 

@noske

Please share with the community what that comment was, and the context.

Given the over 1,300 comments on that thread, it must have been quite an achievement should your belief be correct.

Haha dial back that devastating wit, destroyer of threads. If you are from Oz, I know it’s entirely normal. In fact, we are sarcastic with people we like, we are extra polite to people we can’t abide. I’m extra polite with Amir, for example.

@jerryg123

I’m from Oz but went to high school in US. Humour can pretty different (we follow UK and US and our own which is often dry/sarcastic) so I wouldn’t consider it an insult from @noske. At least not one worth that response. Otoh US humour is often overstated, so maybe you are just doing that. 😀

@holmz sorry. Guy was calling American  idiots. 

noske

689 posts

10-18-2022 at 02:04pm

@kota1

Sounds like you work for the government.

Look at my post, warm, inviting helpful, your reply was snide

Monty Python never made much of an impact in America. Too nuanced, perhaps.

@jerryg123 - which one are you referring to as the nasty little bugger?

I am somewhat perplexed as to how another forum can generate such vexation.

Nasty little bugger from Down Under!

@holmz 

 

I suppose so.
But AG is a business, and they can run it and their forum any way that they see fit.

if it was a forum with the stated purpose of audio with fair and varied representation, then they would not likely trim the outline voices.

Yes, I expect you are right there.

@cd318

Thanks!

I’ve realized no forum will be everything to everyone. I get what I can from ASR and don’t expect it will satisfy all my needs. Same for AGon (and the other forums I visit).

There are inflexible thinkers in all forums. Fortunately I find they are in a minority, and many appreciate the nuance between the extremes. In fact when one of the more inflexible members at ASR needles me for my subjective reports or love of vinyl, and implies I’m there to troll, I point out that my "likes" ratio to my posts are much higher than his (almost 6,000 likes). So there is clearly a significant number of people at ASR who value my participation and the viewpoint I bring. Sometimes I have to remember that when things get rancorous.

@prof 

thyname

I'm not "teaming up" with anyone.

I am scratching my head… why don’t you participate in forums with like minded people with the same beliefs and ideology like ASR?

I do.  I've been a member quite a while at ASR.

However, I find the direction of interest in gear too constrained for me at ASR, and I enjoy discussing the subjective aspects of they hobby - exchanging notes on what things sound like etc.  That doesn't go down so well over there. (I mentioned that in the other ASR thread).

For instance if you look at my long running (and quite popular) thread on Agon in which I report my impressions of lots of speakers, that would go down mostly with a thud at ASR, because it's all subjective.  No data.

So ASR satisfies one aspect of my approach, places like Agon satisfy another. 

Great answer.

ASR is indeed a specialist site with many knowledgeable posters.

A bit like the Steve Hoffman Music Forum it also seems to antagonise a few people who find some folks on there a bit standoffish or even plain rude. 

Anyway, it's far better I believe to view such forums for what they are, a source of valuable information for interested parties. Such people often do not suffer fools gladly in my opinion, and there's little reason why they should.

As for the Audiogon forum, it was only after reading a post by yourself on instrument timbre and texture that I decided to join. I hadn't encountered anything written by any reviewer like the descriptions of tonal colours you wrote here.

Whilst we also have a fair share of rude people here, I would in no way like to imply that they are experts in anything else. However, as in life, sometimes we must learn to take the rough with the smooth.

Oh the fun we all used to have exchanging witty repartee with geoffkait...

Not.

Monty Python never made much of an impact in America.  Too nuanced, perhaps.

Speak for yourself. I and mine found them to be hilarious. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@noske 

my offer stands, just post your system, pics, and measurements in your profile page, NP.

@kota1 

Sounds like you work for the government.

Look at my post, warm, inviting helpful, your reply was snide

Monty Python never made much of an impact in America.  Too nuanced, perhaps.

@russ69 It could have been the increasingly difficult remarks or my request to remove trolls like Amir and or crymeanaudioriver (my opinion, maybe not yours).. 

The moderator has been very responsive to me.  I will ask to have the site relisted in Tech Talk.  It can't do any harm now that discussion is closed.

@noske 

10-18-2022 at 02:24am 

@kota1 

we are all willing to help here, start a new thread, post your concerns, we are there for you bro, no worries :)

Sounds like you work for the government.

Look at my post, warm, inviting helpful, your reply was snide and sarcastic @russ69  is spot on in his assessment

@russ69 Yes, I was congratulating and thanking you for sharing with the community about you finding that.

Our versions differ. Mine is the correct transcript.  
 

I didn’t need a DBT to hear the difference, they were head and shoulders above the rest. Arnie had the education (Physics)

This is tremendous information that you share.

I, and perhaps other contributors on this thread, thankyou for sharing your profound epiphany at having found someone with a physics education after having visited every stereo shop in SoCal.

Here

Russ69 said: "I was very lucky. As a young audiophile, I visited every stereo shop in SoCal listening for the shop that had the best sound. I found it at Woodland Stereo, the shop that helped Arnie develop the Servo Static and other loudspeakers..."

Noske said: "This is tremendous information that you share. I, and perhaps other contributors on this thread, thankyou for sharing your profound epiphany at having found someone with a physics education after having visited every stereo shop in SoCal."

@russ69

I believe the thread was shut down due to your snide and sarcastic comment about me.

Please share with the community what that comment was, and the context.

Given the over 1,300 comments on that thread, it must have been quite an achievement should your belief be correct.

@russ69 +1

@noske My opinion - this is not a site where anyone would wish to spend much time constructing thoughtful and educational posts given that thread was deleted without explanation or consultation.

I believe the thread was shut down due to your snide and sarcastic comment about me. It was headed that way anyway because some people like to name call and act like 8 year olds.

I guess so @noske, I never go on The Face Book or any of the rubbish sites listed above.

No interest, do not care and I am an independent thinker and do not need influencers or Amir to make a decision.

It was his minions that got the other posts shut down.

@noske no a bit like ASR!

Meta, FB, Twitter, Tik Tok, Instagram. All private platforms. 

Bit like Facebook, then, I guess.

Oh, wait...

@jerryg123

It is a private enterprise and they owe you or me zero explanation for their actions.

Bit like Facebook, then, I guess.

Oh, wait...

Has anyone else posted their virtual system yet, WITH measurements?

Looking forward to discussing :)

@noske You should read the terms and conditions for this site.

It is a private enterprise and they owe you or me zero explanation for their actions.

if this bothers you then move on back to ASR where they do the same thing.

My opinion - this is not a site where anyone would wish to spend much time constructing thoughtful and educational posts given that thread was deleted without explanation or consultation.

@noske 

I use MS Edge. I was misguided and incorrect

uhhhh, weren't you the guy posting about your high IQ? You can't work a browser? Right...

@fleschler

I just pulled it up typing Audio Science Review and both of my forums popped up

Thankyou, this is correct. I use MS Edge. I was misguided and incorrect in saying that the 1000+ post thread was deleted. Just shifted such that it is no longer displayed easily as it was before it was closed, which confused my three neurons.

Phew.

Unless you are a libertarian, neo-liberal or similar, ethics can be applied to business dealings: "rooted in" or "devoted to" is a bit of a straw man wrt @noske’s post. People have different ethics of course, so there’s room for debate there.

I suppose so.
But AG is a business, and they can run it and their forum any way that they see fit.

if it was a forum with the stated purpose of audio with fair and varied representation, then they would not likely trim the outline voices.

As it is a business that owns the forum, they are more driven by capitalist theories than libertarian, communist or socialist perspectives. (IME)
Of course I could be wrong, but that is my impression.

@fleschler we're basically describing the same thing. You can find it via a search query (using the site search engine or an external one) but it has (presumably) been removed from the Tech Talk index (so you can't find it by browsing recent threads in the index, even going back to other entries before that thread closed or opened). In other words, an additional effect beyond simply closing the thread (whether this is a manual or automatic step following closing the thread, I can't say, of course). Anyway, quite disappointing to see that occur without a moderator or site manager explanation/statement.

@axo1989 I don’t know, I just pulled it up typing Audio Science Review and both of my forums popped up, I chose one and it opened. I also did a Chrome Google search and typed Audio Science Review Audiogon. Again, it opened up.

I wouldn’t say it’s hidden. Maybe I’m misunderstanding.  Maybe you mean under it's posted category, Tech Talk (it is missing there).

@fleschler

The thread/forum is not deleted, it was closed to additional comments. You can still access it in the search bar in the Audiogon forum above.

It’s closed but also hidden: you can’t find it by browsing the forum heading index. It’s not deleted (currently) so still exists at the relevant URL and returns a result to matching search criteria.

@holmz

It is a forum that is a business, so it is not an enterprise rooted in, or devoted to, ethics.

Unless you are a libertarian, neo-liberal or similar, ethics can be applied to business dealings: "rooted in" or "devoted to" is a bit of a straw man wrt @noske’s post. People have different ethics of course, so there’s room for debate there.

Utterly disrespectful and unethical.

It is a forum that is a business, so it is not an enterprise rooted in, or devoted to, ethics.

@noske No, that was the Benchmark DAC HDR-1. I have never heard their amps although two of my friends had borrowed them and they felt a lack of attachment despite the clean, clear, dynamic sound. I do not know which models.

The thread/forum is not deleted, it was closed to additional comments. You can still access it in the search bar in the Audiogon forum above.  Yours was the last of 1,312 comments on 27 pages.  

@axo1989

Well it is disrespectful toward those who put any effort into the thread, certainly.

Utterly disrespectful and unethical. A thousand plus comments, some of which were reference standard.

My opinion - this is not a site where anyone would wish to spend much time constructing thoughtful and educational posts given that thread was deleted without explanation or consultation.

Is it the wish of AG owners to just attract lowest common denominator chaff?

@fleschler 

Unless there are some performances/music that you find you can only obtain on vinyl (about 30-35% of my collection), you might prefer putting all your eggs in the digital domain.

Some electronic and independent artists I like release on vinyl stuff that isn't streamed, which is why the thought occurs to me. More physical stuff in my life I don't need right now though.

@holmz 

Yep - It is hard to see and witness thoughtful threads, albeit with some divisiveness, get deleted out of hand… seemingly on a whim.

Well it is disrespectful toward those who put any effort into the thread, certainly.

Fyi it's still there at the link in the email notifications, just removed from the tech-talk index. Maybe the cleaners arrive later.

@kota1 

we are all willing to help here, start a new thread, post your concerns, we are there for you bro, no worries :)

Sounds like you work for the government.

@fleschler

However, the older DACs can be upgraded to have that 3 dimensional, full bodied and warmer sound with modification of parts. The engineering is sound as is the basic construction.

I didn’t know that. You have previously commented on a recently deleted thread on how components (eg, an amp made by Benchmark) may be upgraded from stock, and this is always intriguing.

holmz , I thought everyone here knew how the virtual systems page works, my bad :).

It’s OK - I believe that it works different on an iPad than a computer browser.

As for measurements, I am not against measurements, I thought posting them would be interesting if we are discussing measurements any way right.

Correct.

I found Amir’s many considered comments very informative and valuable. And now they are all forever gone at the whim of AG.

This has happened many times before on this forum.

…

Yep - It is hard to see and witness thoughtful threads, albeit with some divisiveness, get deleted out of hand… seemingly on a whim.

@axo1989  I've been collecting/listening to LPs for 60 years.  Digital playback has evolved to be tremendously captivating, often equal to the best vinyl.  Unless there are some performances/music that you find you can only obtain on vinyl (about 30-35% of my collection), you might prefer putting all your eggs in the digital domain.  Also, analog is not as easy to use and maintain but you probably know that. 

Same with CDs versus streaming.  At least half of my CDs will never show up streamed (1000+ private label vocals, violin and piano CDs) and many of the other 50% are not presented in as good mastering on-line.   

I own two other DACs purchased when I switched from the EAR Acute (2005), the COS Engineering D1v ($9000) and D2v ($5000) retail. They are gorgeous units which even my cable/equipment manufacturing friend says are also exceptionally built. However, they have a 1 second delay algorithm which blurs and expands the sound and a bypass which is relatively dry sounding.

The D1 is like the Benchmark L4 to a great extent. It is so clean and clear in bypass mode with wide frequency response, wide soundstage, dynamic. BUT-it lacks 3-D quality (minimal depth) and has a sort of sterile sound (missing body but great tonal quality). This is what it also sounded like on 3 other systems and none of my friends liked it compared to the D2v which has only a single linear power supply, single transformer, etc. compared to the beautiful D1v. It has a warm, lush sound like a CJ pre-amp. It has more limited bass and rolled off highs, less open but oh so sweet for voices and acoustic instruments. I intend to sell both now as I bought the super modified Benchmark HDR1 DAC which obliterates those two DACs and sounds like 5 figure DACs like my friend’s Ultradac ($23K), maybe better. Cost-$800 for a clean used unit and $800 in parts and labor.

P.S. I tried a dozen different transports on the COS units. The Benchmark sounded better on the three I kept by a mile. The COS units had the same sound profile on ever transport, the Benchmark shows the significant differences.

@kota1 You’ve done a very impressive job correcting your room sound from the speakers alone (quite bumpy). Looks really flat after correction.

Back in the mid-1980s, I was fortunate to hear Conrad Johnson’s top pre-amp (don’t remember the name), an Audio Research SP 8 and an SP 10 (I don’t remember which of the 7 versions). I was amazed at how dark and closed in sounding the CJ pre-amp was, even compared to my highly modified Dynaco PAS--3. The SP8 was just as warm sounding but the soundstage was so much larger, more open. The SP10 blew me away. Great soundstage, 3 dimensional sound and wide frequency response. I couldn’t afford and it uses a lot of tubes.

A year later I acquired a Fisher 400 CX tube preamp for free from an estate. It sounded almost as good as the SP10, a little darker and less open. Musically it was great. I sold it for a nice profit. At the time, I didn’t realize how good it would be even today but my tech guy back then said his Dynaco was "purer" sounding.

I have heard since the 80’s maybe 4 CJ preamps and at least 5 CJ amps. My neighbor had the CJ Art 27A running into the tweeter and mid of a YG Sonja 2.3. It sounded lovely on small ensembles, voices and non-percussive instruments. He has a PS Audio BHK 250 amp for piano, rock and orchestra/opera. Well the CJ sounded very warm with lesser resolution than the BHK. The latter has NOS input tubes and has a dynamic and wide open sound although not ideal for voices. So, he has two separate sounding amps (sold the CJ, bought a highly modified Dynaco ST 70) in a tri-amped system (bass and subs have big Class D amps). He listens to music on each amp dependent on the type of music. This appears similar to prof choice of using the clean and clear wide open sound of the Benchmark L4 and the more seductive, warm albeit more distorted sound of the CJ preamp. That’s an easier choice than maintaining separate speakers/rooms to do the same.

Luckily, I have cool running Class A/B 125 watt voltage regulated monoblock tube amps that play anything and most speakers (I haven’t tried them on impedances below 2 ohms but they will play well with 85 db speakers). The funny thing is that my 2nd system amp, a voltage regulated highly modified Dynaco 70 35 watts has great control versus my back-up to the 2nd system which is an EAR 890, a class A zero global feedback, super heater/hot running 70 amp which can’t control 3 12" woofers per side. Sounds great on the Signature IIIs 3 10" woofers.

@prof 

I listen to records more than digital these days and prefer not to digitize my analog system.  If only out of conceptual purity :-)

I do understand this. Perhaps when my life is less messy I'll try vinyl.

Kota1,

Thank you for the recommendation. However I have no need for the NAD.

I'm very aware of DIRAC - the AVSforum especially has been a DIRAC love-fest for many years.  I listen to records more than digital these days and prefer not to digitize my analog system.  If only out of conceptual purity :-)

I also tried subwoofers - JL Audio, their CR-1 crossover, and the Dspeaker Anti-mode.  I preferred my speakers without all of that and sold it off.  I'm pretty old school I guess.

@kota1

I would always try and get the room first, the speaker placement second, the power third, the IC’s 4th and NOW you should be able to actually discern the difference a quality component makes.

I think this is absolutely the correct order to do things. There’s a bit of re-iteration of the whole cycle I guess, at least for me as I learned/experienced more of amp-speaker-room interaction.

@axo1989 , your post is very helpful, I like how you test and move, test and move and then DSP is used to fine tune. So sad how many people think DSP is all you need but when you do the heavy lifting it will really be able to do the best job possible.

Glad it made sense. I tried DSP first a while back but learned (for example) you can’t just pour power into a serious null. Adding a Krell helped (even a baby one) but drivers have limits. DSP gain increases distortion of course so you want to get as far as you can before that.

This time when I did listening I used my usual music but also stepped test tones. When it got to that 70-80 Hz null in the original position it sounded like a giant grabbed the speaker by the throat and squeezed, Move the speaker out of the giant's reach, it needs to breathe.

@prof , your gear is quality stuff, agreed. Hope you can post pics sometime.

I would recommend swapping out the Node for the NAD C658 streamer. It is a much better match to the higher level gear you have AND it comes with a microphone and a dsp software called DIRAC. Will take 10 minutes to run and will measure it and correct the room problems to the degree possible. I know you don't need it as a DAC but the DIRAC dsp software is worth it, even if you just use it as a streaming source.

kota1

Yeah, I never intended to use the Bluesound NODE without my external DAC.

No, never taken measurements.  Not interested in doing so.  It's not my thing. The Benchmark equipment has been measured by people far more knowledgeable and competent than I am, and the reports are stellar.

@axo1989 , your post is very helpful, I like how you test and move, test and move and then DSP is used to fine tune. So sad how many people think DSP is all you need. Its only when you do the speaker positioning and the room that its able to fine tune it. I see you started your virtual system, looking forward to seeing it.