Audio Horizons TP 2.0 Preamplifier

Joe, I'm glad to hear that you are enjoying your preamp. I still love mine and am awaiting some new caps to try in the outputs. I'll post an impression in a couple of weeks. Yes, tubes are fascinating, aren't they? Even the same tubes from the same manufacturer from different batches can have different characteristics. Enjoy your music.

Hi Rob,
I sent you an email.

Hello to the other folks here, I hope you're all doing fine !

Hey guys,don't know what everyones musical tastes are but if you're adventuresome check out Lucinda Williams' new disc "West" it's her first recording in 4 years.Excellent.

This thread has been kind of quiet lately. Is everyone just so happy listening to their preamps that they don't have time to post a comment? I just replaced the output caps in my preamp with some VERY expensive V-cap teflons. I'll give my impressions in a while after some further break-in.

Still here,looking forward to your comments.Still owe you a drink.

Still here, as well.

We've been perfectly happy with our TP 2.0n and have gotten to the point where we're not tinkering with it... just good, pure sound.

Should I start a new thread for what follows? I've been considering adding analog to my system, although I'm taking my time to do the research. The question is: How is Joseph's TP 8.0 phono stage? Is there anyone out there with one of these so that I can get an evaluation? SciFi, I believe, was testing one of those units.

Rob

Still here and enjoying my AH with the Siemens cca's. I am so happy with my system right now that I may not tinker with it for a long time - just enjoying the music.

Rob,
It seems that no one yet here in this thread has tried the new Phono unit, or maybe they haven't posted it yet. Maybe a fresh new thread might bring the new users out. I have future plans to get back into phono( and Joseph's unit is at the top of my list), but the budget is not yet ready for me to make the move. It's a shame because I have quite a collection of LP's. For the time being, I'll have to be content with CD's and my beloved tuner.

I just received some of this Starrdamp material and am going to put it in strategic places inside of my preamp, particularly in the top cover. I'm hoping for an improvement and will let you all know how it goes:

http://www.verastarr.com/vibrationcontrol.html

For about two and a half months, ever since Joseph indicated to one of our customers that a new version of the 2.0 was forthcoming, rumors have circulated that Joseph is designing a new preamplifier. This is not true: he is merely reconfiguring the TP 2.0. In July we will introduce the Audio Horizons TP 2.1.

The circuit of the TP 2.1 is exactly the same as that of the 2.0. Joseph has no intention of changing the circuit for some years. Changes, however, have been made to the layout of the 2.1 in order to accommodate various requests customers have made for two balanced inputs or two balanced outputs, for a tape loop circuit, etc. These changes to the 2.0 required time consuming modifications to the chassis, but will no longer.

We have also reduced the height of the 2.1 so that it is 3.5” tall instead of 4” tall, and changed the cosmetics of the chassis and of the faceplate. We think the 2.1 is more attractive than the 2.0. Moreover, its more compact chassis will improve manufacturing efficiencies and reduce our shipping costs. We have also reversed the location of the inputs and outputs to improve the wiring layout. Facing the TP 2.1 front, the inputs are now on the right rear and the outputs on the left rear.

The improved chassis materials and cosmetics and the improved layout have resulted in improved S/N figures of about 3 dB. The improved S/N figures are small but in a direct A-B audible. That said, the 2.1 sounds just like the 2.0, only a little quieter. Therefore, no one who has the TP 2.0 need feel deprived by not having a 2.1.

Because of the more expensive and attractive chassis and faceplate, and because of other cost increases, we have had to raise the price of the preamplifier from $1895 to $1995—an increase of about 5%.

The 2.1 will come in a Line Stage version and in a Phono Stage version. Frankly we think the 8.0 phono stage is, for what it does, equal in performance to the 2.0 and 2.1. Those interested ought to ask for a free audition of he stand alone version. Then, like Scifi, they can order an 8.0i to incorporate into their 2.0 or 2.1

The 2.1 will come a remote or without remote. Of course all the other upgrades to the 2.0 will still be available on the TP 2.1.

We will be running our first ads on the TP 2.1 shortly, perhaps even as soon as this weekend. The TP 2.1 will come in silver and in black.

Because we appreciate all your support more than we ecan say, we wanted you all to know before we place our first ad. Thanks for all your kind words.

Best regards,

Victor

Victor,

Thanks for the update!

From your post, I understand that there is not a huge sonic difference between the TP 2.0 and the TP 2.1 - 3dB - although it sounds like the chassis improvements and wire layout may be beneficial not only for Audio Horizons, but for some of us as well.

Do you plan any sort of "upgrade path" or "trade-in" incentive for current owners of the TP 2.0? Or, are the differences so nominal that it would be counter-productive? Could there be a lower price for those who would like to trade up?

I suppose I was wondering this, as some people like to have the "state of the art", especially when it comes to our beloved 2.0s.

Thanks,
Rob

How much "quieter" can the 2.1 be,it still amazes me how silent the 2.0 is.Just when you thought this thread was petering out they drag you back in.

Markwatkiss:

And the problem is...? {grin}

The only thing better than listening to the TP 2.0 is sharing the joy with others here, IMO. It is certainly one outstanding pre.

I'm not (really) planning to get one of the new 2.1 units, but was interested to see if Joseph and Victor had considered any sort of upgrade path or trade-in if one wants to go from 2.0 to 2.1. In my particular case, the slimmer chassis and new cable layout might be advantageous. Not to mention "more attractive..."

Rob

Cant wait to see the "baby pictures" of the new unit!

For those interested, the initial ads for the TP 2.1, with photos of front and rear, were placed on Audiogon this morning.

Thanks for your continued interest in our products.

Victor

I don't know. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I kind of like the look of my TP 2.0n with the wooden knobs.

Now that I see a new photo of the new TP 2.1 with wooden knobs, it is rather elegant looking. Oh well. My TP 2.0 is "purty" enough as we say here in Texas.

Sherod,

Know what I like best about seeing the new wooden knobs on the 2.1? The fact that Victor and Joseph heard the feedback from this thread and did something about it!

That's incredibly responsive, IMO.

Rob

Sherod, Where is the pic of 2.1 with the wooden knobs, please? I looked in the adds for preamp and just saw the metal knobs. Have a good week.
Joe

Joe, here's the ad with the wooden knobs photo:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1188922190

Thanks Sherod. I like the 2.0 and the 2.1 equally well in terms of looks. I preferred the black 2.0 as all my other equip was black. How many of you have black and how many silver?

Joe,

Black, with redheart knobs. (See pics under my System)

Rob

Mine is silver with the dark knobs.

And just to be different,silver with the redheart knobs.

My "dark" knobs are Redheart also. I just now realized this.

Both of my Audio Horizons components (preamp and DAC) have black face plate and redheart knobs. I must say I like happy coincidence of the redheart name, which is so appropriate to components that consistently provide heartfelt musical performances.

We have had a request by a web audio magazine to review the TP 2.1 with or without the TP 8.0 incorporated into it.

He has left the decision up to us as to which version we submit. We would like your input on this choice. The reviewer wants the remote option, so that is a given.

Should we, because of its more accessible price, review the TP 2.1Rn ($2695) or should we put our best foot forward and go with our top line TP 2.1RnB ($3490)?

Should we ask him to review the TP 8.0 in a stand alone version or in the integrated version? Again, should we opt for the entry level “n” Moving Coil version or the top of the line premium Moving Coil version?

There are arguments for each, so we would welcome your thoughts on this matter.

Thank you. We appreciate your taking the time to express your views.

Victor

I think that you should submit Joseph's best for review. For those who can't afford it, they can get the "lesser" model and upgrade later. I also feel that both the linestage and phono should be submitted, either as separate or integrated. The idea is to get an idea for the reader of the review to make up his mind based on the sonic merits of each. As to the magnetic or moving coil option, that would depend on the reviewers preference. He might only have a magnetic cartridge( hopefully not) to use for evaluating the phono stage. It would be nice to read a review of both options. Anyway, my two cents, but I might change my mind later. Congratulations on the review Joseph and Victor. I have high hopes for an honest and thorough review from both a subjective as well as an objective approach.

By the way, fellow TP 2.0 owners. I just put one of these tweak PE units in my system and it has been the best tweak I have ever tried. I look at it now as not so much a tweak but more as a component. The best $75.00 I've ever spent for my system enjoyment.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?powrcond&1188923292

I have been using the PEs (5 of them) in my home for the past 2 months. I have 3 on my AV circuit and a couple more on other circuits in my home. What Sherod reports is right on the mark. I now have a PE-4 on order as well as one of Alan's power cords. Each of my friends who have tried this tweak have reported similar results.

I 100% agree with Sherod and you should submit Joseph's best version of the preamp. As I have learned in sales we should always lead with the best product first. Folks need to know what Joseph is capable of - his best work.

I would submit the phono unit separate and also submit the best here. The reviewer can simply state you offer the option of adding this same phono stage right into the TP2.1.

Ok, the last question in my mind is the tubes to use. Here I think you should go with non - NOS's. NOS's are more of an expensive tweek that not all TP2.1 owners will want to deal with. Go with the standard tubes and with Joseph's best electronics and parts!

Bill

I would be inclined to go with your best and with the phono unit separate with clear indications of lowest price unit and ease of upgrade.
But it is a very tough question becuase if the lowest unit recieves high praises at that attractive price point, you would generate much interest(sales)with many deciding "what the heck" and upgrading right away anyway. I would provide the reviewer with a set of stock tubes as well as a set of great cca's, checking specific unit and its tubes for very carefully for microphonics before sending.

I vote for the integrated for the review. After all its Joseph's signature work that is the subject matter at hand. At this level of importance, this review can potentially put "General" chow (affectionatly speaking) on the map.

His preamp deserves full attention by all audiophiles in my opinion, stock or non-stock. Never had a preamp that had such long term staying power of holding my interest in listening. Nuff said.

-

Dear Joseph and Victor,

As with others here, I'd suggest going with the top-of-the-line version. I would also suggest that you make it extremely clear to the reviewer (and I would hope they'd include the information in the review) that there is a very accessible entry-level price point in addition to a very well-defined upgrade path for the unit being reviewed.

I consider this to be one of the strengths of the TP line; start with what you can afford and upgrade when you can, knowing that AH will take good care of your preamp.

I'm not so sure about including the stock EH tubes, though. I wasn't terribly impressed, to be truthful. After I installed the PQ White Labels, I was absolutely hooked. Perhaps you could provide the Siemens tubes already installed and a set of E-H tubes in case they want to note the differences.

As for the 8.0... I believe that you're getting into a tricky area, here. Not everyone is into vinyl... MM, or MC?... The 8.0 does increase the entry price point, making it potentially out of reach for some people... and other such considerations. Overall, I suppose I'd go for including the 8.0 as an integrated unit, but I'd make very sure that the reviewer realizes and notes that it is an OPTION.

I realize that one cannot tell a reviewer what to write, but if you provide enough information and make it clear that the TP 2.0n is a fantastic preamp at an affordable price, with a well-defined upgrade path to audio Nirvana, you should probably fare very well.

It would be my hope, too, that someone posts the review here when it's available!

Best,
Rob

You've received some good advice from other Audio Horizons customers. I'll add my "amen" to their comments.
I recommend that you send the TP 2.1 equivalent of either the TP 2.0nb or the TP 2.0nB, which are the versions of that preamp that perform at the highest level.
The upgrade path is an important story.
I would take the same approach with the phono preamp. Send the best performing version of the stand alone unit. It doesn't have to include all of the possible variatiations and features (i.e., it doesn't have to be the most expensive version) but it should perform at the highest level

Agree with all the above :

Review the top preamp *without* the phono stage (as a line only, how it originated)

Also, I'd like to see it pitted against some big-name, expensive preamps we're familiar with reading about in these threads.

Congratulations to Joseph "Commander" Chow (I like that La45 !) and Victor Comerchero.

I would like to thank everyone who took a moment to express their opinion about the pending review. We have taken your advice to heart and will, as most of you suggest, send the line stage TP 2.1RnB--we include the remote because the reviewer asked for the remote. Since he is willing to also audition the phono stage, we will send him the TP 8.0cMCpn, which is our top line phono preamp, playable either amp direct or through the 2.1.

For our cable fans, you might be pleased to know the reviewer wants us to send our power cords and cables along, which we shall do.

I hope with all of you that this is a break through opportunity for a very sweet guy and an extraordinarily talented designer--Joseph Chow.

My thanks to all of you again.

On a different note, a supplier of extremely fine Siemens early 60's NOS CCa tubes--both Gamajo and I are very pleased with them--has more of them to sell. they are $350 a pair, and $650 a quad. These tubes will last 10,000 hours. Please contact me if you are interested.

Victor

If anyone is still experimenting with tube rolling in their TP 2.0 preamps, in my system I've yet to find a better tube for locations one and three than an early 60's Siemens Cca, but I recently bought a NOS pair of 60's Siemens E88CC with the A-frame halos and put them in locations two and four and the combination is really musical. The A-frames seem to have a larger soundstage with a little more airiness. This combo sounds better to me than all Cca's in the four positions. Here are some similar A-frames to the ones I found, except mine are date coded A3, while these are A6:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-Siemens-JAN-6922-Matched-Pair-Gold-Pin-E88CC-7308_W0QQitemZ320143186035QQihZ011QQcategoryZ67816QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I'm still experimenting with output caps but for the time being I am back with the original upgraded Hovlands. I'm going to try two more caps and then make my final decision. Happy listening everyone. I hope you're enjoying your systems.

I don't know if anyone has noticed this, but in the new TP 2.1nB, Joseph has removed the AC filter. I'm curious about this as the filter was an original add-on upgrade in the 2.0 versions.

http://161.58.252.3/i/s/f/1186200477.jpg

Gentlemen,
This has made for an extremely interesting three hours of reading today (which just happens to be a very hot, humid, rainy day). Since I’m in the market for a preamp for an analog system I’m putting together, I’m going to have to give this Audio Horizons preamp a listen to.
Thanks for your posts.

And why not complete your reading by enjoying the music by "Tesla" found on "My space".

The link :http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=11324008 is shown unless AG removes it.

I wonder if the TP2.1 would improve the music quality of Tesla? Seem a bit bass shy!

Lak, are you putting together another system? If it's to compare to or replace your ARC Ref 3, then that would be an interesting comparison.

Sherod,
Actually I need to update my “Lak's two channel system” page. Over the years I’ve made a number of changes to it however I never updated my “Lak's two channel system” page.
I’m using a Plinius 8100 integrated amp and no longer have a separate preamp in that system. I still own my Cary 2A3 monoblocks but I’m in need of an active preamp to go along with my Audio Research PH-7 phono preamp,(for the occasions when I want to use the 2A3 monoblocks) and my soon to arrive Teres 360 TT and Tri-Planar arm, which will replace the older lesser quality analog gear I was using.

Lak - Glad you enjoyed the read. Let us know when you reviece your unit and what you think. By the time you finish you audition and post comments it will likely be a three and half hour read.
After hearing my AH 2.0 a friend of mine here in town is auditioning the AH phono pre, so I will get to hear the phono unit this week. He likes it already and is currently dialing it in. Time to go upstairs and hear some music.
Peace

Recently, Joseph took a TP 2.1nB to Cedar, who in the past has acted as a beta tester for us, to compare to his TP 2.0nB. In addition to a number of small changes made to the 2.1, at the last minute in the 2.1n we decided to replace the Hovland caps used to a larger, more expensive proprietary brand. This decision occurred after I had written my post announcing the impending introduction of the TP 2.1. The new capacitors are so sensitive to interference that each capacitor must be individually wrapped and shielded with thick copper foil.

Cedar was so impressed by the sonic improvement of the TP 2.1nB that he asked Joseph to upgrade his TP 2.0nB and his TD 3.0n.

When Audio Horizons was founded, we had a couple of clear marketing goals: 1) to provide a clear upgrade path for owners so that when they could afford enhancements, they could upgrade the performance of their Audio Horizons components (and thus be certain they were improving the performance of their system) instead of replacing them, and 2) to shun a marketing philosophy based on change and obsolescence.

As part of this second goal, we have decided to put together an upgrade option which would permit TP 2.0n and TP 2.0nB owners to upgrade their 2.0n and 2.0nB’s to 2.1n and 2.1nB. The upgrade will not yield all the benefits of the newer model because some of the gains from improved layout can not be translated, but most of the gains will be incorporated--all those that can be included will be. There are six areas that will be addressed:

1. We will add four capacitors to reduce input switching noise.

2. We will remove the old multipath wiring harness from the RCA jacks to the volume pot and to the main preamplifier PC board and replace it with a new upgraded wire harness, which now comes wrapped in an extra isolating layer of Teflon for better noise suppression.

3. As a result of this harness improvement and isolation and by virtue of shielding the new proprietary caps, we find that the line filter is no longer necessary to filter out high frequency noise; in fact it actually introduces extraneous noise. We will remove the line filter and bypass it. This line filter was never a part of the “n” upgrade: it was always part of the original design and exists in the TP 2.0 as well. It will be returned to you.

4. We will remove the Hovland caps, which also will be returned to you, and replace them with the larger, more expensive shielded capacitors we now use in the TP 2.1n version. Our cost for these capacitors before shielding is just under $80. We think they are worth the extra cost and believe you will agree after listening to them.

5. We will diagnose and address any problems some of you have reported with ground loop issues or tube microphonics.

6. Finally Joseph will inspect the preamplifier to be certain it is operating properly.

Because of size and layout changes, it will be impossible to upgrade the chassis and faceplate.

The cost of this upgrade will be $300. Please understand, these upgrades are not a big profit center for Joseph. We are offering them so that those who want the latest Audio Horizons refinements can order them. The caps are not always easy to get so we will need you to schedule your 2.0n to 2.1n conversion closely.

I have asked Cedar to post his impressions of the sonic benefits of the upgrade. His impressions mirror our own but we thought you would like to hear them from a disinterested owner who has now lived with the upgrade for some time.

Victor

Thanks, Victor...

It sounds like an attractive upgrade path. I had been considering sending my TP 2.0n in soon for an upgrade while on vacation.

I, for one, appreciate the goals that you have laid out, and it represents just one more reason why I love this preamp.

Rob

Thanks for the imfo Victor.

Count me in for an upgrade, even though it sounds great in original form.

I'm sure the other "members of the family" will be interested as well.

Yes, Joseph changed my preamp.

I was surprised at the improvement - I didn't think the preamp could be improved quite so easily. What I have heard so far are more relaxed and natural high frequencies, and a midbass (~80-200 hz) improvement. Also, it seems to me that various instruments and voices are articulated and positioned more clearly. I perceive the improvements as a more realistic presentation of the musical performance rather than as, say, a lower noise floor that reveals more detail.

Joseph did shield the new output caps, while changing some wires, adding a couple of other caps, and removing the line filter.

I'm glad that Joseph made the change. I have been a beta tester for the Audio Horizons solid state DAC, the tube DAC, and for the TP 2.0 (but not for TP 2.1 or the phono preamp). So, I have had the advantage of seeing Audio Horizons products evolve through the interaction of listening tests and circuit refinements. This upgrade (it is an improvement) shows the value of Joseph's design approach (described on the Audio Horizons website) very well.

I see, at long last, that an audio product reviewer has caught sight of an Audio Horizons product - the TD 3.0 tube DAC. A review can be read here:

http://www.dagogo.com/AudioHorizonsTD3.0nDAC.html

The reviewer concludes that the TD 3.0 is a great bargain, without equal in its price range, and for which no apologies are needed even when compared to DACs costing tens of thousands of $.

I've enjoyed my TD 3.0 since it was introduced. Recently, Joseph installed the new capacitors (mentioned in the review and now used in the preamp) into my tube DAC.

I hope others find reason to try the TD 3.0 which, in its own way, is as good as the TP 2.0.