I am 99.9% sure that it is phase inverting as Victor had me turn my speaker leads around and I have non-inverting amp. Just wanted to be the 200th poster here :) Happy bicentential eveyone! |
Goodness, glad to hear another here has had the same experience regarding this preamp inverting phase. Ok, all owners go home and reverse polarity on your speakers and see for yourself. I also have that wonderful Stereophile test CD which tests for absolute phase.
Have fun! Your preamps may sound even better with this small tweek - plus it's free!
Another question. Does his DAC invert phase?? I also own the DAC and never asked. Oh my.
Bill |
Here's another stumper :
I have the Siemens ECC88 with the *White Falcon* logo, non-gold pins.
Does anyone have these in their preamps ?
Joseph must have a special connection (possibly overseas) ?
I can't locate these anywhere else, Googled it. |
Yup, I have those also. I like the Amperex, Bugle Boy's better as an FYI!
Bill |
Grannyring,
What characteristics do you like better about the Ampy B.B.s ? |
Okay... I'm in.
I confess: I'm the mystery "new member" of the Audio Horizons club. It fell to me to audition the incredible TP 2.0 MK2.
Actually, after dealing with an amp repair issue for over a month, I finally had a chance to listen to Joseph's TP 2.0n preamp.
It only took two days - one great listening session - to know that it was a slam-dunk for the TP 2.0n. A high WAF for the sonic improvement sealed the deal. The heck with the other 28 days of auditioning... I've sent my check in already.
I started with Joseph's stock EH tubes. A good friend who also owns a TP 2.0 was "kind" enough to let me try a very nice set of Amperex PQ 6922s. "Kind," in that I just HAD to have those tubes, boosting the overall layout for the pre.
No big deal at all. This things sings!
I'm running an Resolution Audio Opus 21 CDP, the TP 2.0n on Walker Valid Points, Spectron Musician II Class-D amp, Magnepan 3.3/R speakers with MYE stands. Joseph's Transparency powers the TP, with a mix of Lab 1, Synergistic, and DCCA PCs. Speaker cables are remote-sense from DH Labs.
Thanks to all on this thread. This discussion is what made me want to try the TP 2.0, even though I already had a VERY capable pre-amp.
Best,
Rob |
Rob, welcome to this thread and tothe club. Curious - did you reverse your speaker leads??? |
Rgd,
>> Curious - did you reverse your speaker leads???
As I understand it, I don't have to. According to Spectron, the remote sense cables take care of that.
Of course, I'm going to try it to see if there's any difference.
Rob |
Welcome, Rhanson to the TP-2.0 preamp club. I just received a detailed explanation regarding the phase from Victor. I asked him if I could post the explanation on this thread and am awaiting his reply. I just reversed my speaker leads and the sound became out of phase, so the standard hook-up is in phase for my system. It might be different for others. Victor's explanation talks about this issue. Don't worry, because I just did a detailed search on the threads discussing phase and there is a lot of information. I'll find the thread that helped me a lot in understanding this phenomena. If you read the posts, you'll see that a lot of studios record the songs out of phase. |
Hey Rob,
Glad you joined, welcome here !! |
Here's one thread that gives some info. Do a search under "phase inversion" or "phase". Other words to look at are "inverse polarity", "polarity" and "reverse polarity"
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1143621906&read&keyw&zzphase=inversion |
Not sure why one system does not require cable switching and another does. The preamp does invert phase and my system is out of phase unless I reverse polarity on the speakers. I just confirmed this on my test CD.
Unless another piece of gear inverts phase in the same system one must reverse polarity - right?
Bill |
Welcome Rhanson. Enjoyed your sense of humor in your post. Are you willing to share what pre you replaced, on or off post? Interested that you like the Amperex.
Sherod, The Siemens cca's I tried in position 1&3 were microphonic in my system. I tried Herbies tube dampers and they seemed to dramatically overdampen the sound and put me from row 4 concert hall to row 14.
I am leaning next to trying a matched quad of NOS gray plate early 60's Siemens E88cc's, but have not ruled out Amperex yet. |
Joe, try the Amperex out. I'm anxious to hear your impressions. Also, Victor gave me the go ahead to post his e-mail regarding phase:
Hello Sherod,
Many preamps and many amps reverse the polarity. This becomes a problem only when the preamp does, as Joseph's does, and the amp does not. This issue surfaced only recently when Cedar got a new amp and unlike his previous one, it did not reverse polarity. Joseph had never mentioned this matter to me before or I would have added it to the owner's manual and the specs.. I will be sending out a notice to all past customers on this matter when Joseph returns and sends me all their email addresses..
Sometimes the amp manufacturer indicates this fact and sometimes the manufacturer does not. I recently revised the owner's manual to note this fact and will add it to the specs in the ads shortly.
The simplest way to tell is to reverse the polarity of your two speakers. When a system is out of phase, the sound will appear a little flat; imaging will also wander rather than snap into focus. On most quality systems, it is not hard to tell. a minute's listening will disclose whether you are in or out of phase.
I suggest that you reverse the polarity of your speaker leads and see what happens: if the sound seems dull and less alive and imaging wanders or is ill-defined, then you are out of phase.
Best regards,
Victor |
Joe, if you paid a premium for those Cca's, send them back to the dealer for a replacement or refund. I have read that tube dampers can sometimes over-damp a system. |
Welcome Rob to the most exclusive pre amp club in town.Having said that, what "capable" pre amp did the AH replace.Thumbs up on Maggies. |
Rx8man,
The Amperex Bugle Boy's are more full sounding with warmer mids and a larger soundstage. Just more musical to my ears and better suited for a digital system with any component that may be a tad HOT.
Bill |
Sherod. Yes the fellow audiogoner is happy to take the cca's back. But thanks for the tip. Being new to tubes the variety of choices within just the Siemens and Amperex family, pricing, and policies for audition are a bit daunting. But I am just letting the learning curve happen while enjoying the music. My wife has never seen me taking the top on and off so much with a piece of equipment and she is intrigued (have to keep assuring her that it isn't broken and I havent lost my mind. lol)
Grannyring - thank you for the description of the Amperex. I think I will have to listen to some, given I have a fully ss system as well. |
Thanks Grannyring, appreciate the input, I will try them. |
Joe, just a brief while back I was very "green" about tubes. I learned quite a bit about them in general from reading through the Tube Asylum on the Audio Asylum website. I still go through some of these threads from time to time to refresh my memory. One of the things I found out about tubes is that the best ones, which are usually NOS( but not all) are like a seasoning to the circuitry. It's amazing how so many audiophiles have so many different preferences in sound. Bottom line is what sounds best to you. There is no one best particular tube. IMHO |
Yes, I have looked through the tubes threads at Asylum and found them helpful. Victor is very sincere in his conviction that the cc'a's and, short of that, the gray plate Siemens are best in the TP 2.0. And he is very knowledgable and dedicted to the search for "absolute sound" and an expert in the TP 2.0. Yet, from what I hear that the Amperexs can give, they sound intriguing as well. Beside musical perferences (I want to tune my system to awesome classical, though I listen to other genres as well), equipment, and room synergy, you have the personal taste mentioned. Given all this there is plenty of room to experiment. To paraphrase "so many tubes, so little time". |
Ahh, the joy and expense of tube rolling... |
Gentlemen,
Thought I should mention that the preamp is outstanding! I have about 35 hours playing time and wanted to thank all on the board for sharing their impressions about this wonderful preamp.
I wanted to contribute this information to those who are looking in and for us "Component USA Clubers". I was about to purchase Amperex tubes to replace the Siemens since I found them to be on the thin side. If your taste is akin to this then keep trucking with the Siemens. I am no longer searching for any tubes after I did a semi-cryo treatment on the TP 2.0. The sound is on another level toward 'organic' with tons of flavor in the midrange and a beautiful soundstage that ooozes 'synergy'.
In my opinion the freeze treatment enhanced the break in period of this player and it will be interesting to see what additional improvements is on the Horizon LOL!
Lou
|
Lou,
Can you explain what a semi-cryo'd treatment is? |
Sherod,
What I meant by semi cryo is freezing at zero degrees. If you were to do the full cryo its faster and the temperature is much lower in an controlled environment. |
Here's an interesting thread I started recently in another forum regarding the Siemens CCa tubes:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tubes/messages/191763.html |
LA45 I am glad that you are happy with the your preamp. What version did you get and what tubes are you using - the gold pins or regular Siemens? Curious about the cyro as I have never attempted. Can you walk us through this a step at a time? For example: Did you leave the tubes in? Did you wrap the unit? How long did you leave it in for? Is there a warm up time afterwards before you plug in the unit? Any dangers to watch for, aside from defrosting it and putting it on the grill, thinking it is a steak? |
I am leery of the freezer treatment of anything. Freezing is 32 degrees F. I don't know if there is scientific evidence that this temperature is sufficient to change the molecular structure of the item. I know there is evidence of true cryo treatment making changes on a molecular level, but true cryo is substantially lower than standard freezing. There are a couple of threads regarding freezing and double- freezing, wrapping in a plastic bag, etc. but it all seemed ludicrous to me. Maybe freezing does work, but I'm not comfortable enough with trying it out just yet. I have other tweaks in mind that to me would make a bigger difference, in general. YMMV |
I agree that freezing at zero is risky at the very best. One can buy a quad of nice Bugle Boy tubes used for $65 and get a warmer more organic sound without any risk of damaging the $3000 amp.
I know that cryo does seem to help the sound as I have done that to a Belles pre, wires and tubes. Zero degress in my home freezer is not cryo however.
This whole thing is most interesting to me to be honest. I am open minded, but must say it sounds very risky to me. |
Victor is sending these questions to Joseph but reports that they already cryo some of the components within the preamp. They have not ever cyro'd the whole thing. So - how brave, adventurous is our little club? Perhaps La45 is our pioneer! I would at least check if it voids the wareentee and probably, as an official cyro woose would go tenth instead of second in this grand experiment. |
There's some circuit board isolation going in my preamp tomorrow.
I have some other tricks in the making, following my isolation procedure (safe, even better sounding and totally reversible)
Details will follow later upon completion. |
Here is the preamp designer, Joseph's response to the cyro idea
"Joseph has gotten back to me and enumerated what hardware in the TP 2.0 he does cryo: The IEC, RCA's, XLR's and tube sockets. He is not comfortable with a complete unit cryo or semi-cryo and doesn't know what affect it would have on the unit in terms of performance or reliability. Each individual would have to decide for himself whether to chance it. More details about the means of semi-cryoing would be appreciated."
We are fascinating creatures. Given how great we think the preamp is and this inspires us to make it even better through tubes and tweaks. But is surely satisfying to start with such a wonderful product.
Joe |
My take on cryo is a conservative one. I chose zero degrees or above as the "safe" area to treat the preamp. No its not full Cyro treatment which reach -300 degrees. Risky without Joseph's approval.
The preamp (tubes included) has so much room inside that it creates its own ice box from all the metal. I have to say the preamp has improved with no adverse effects.
I am grateful to Rx8man for recommending the preamp to me I am forever grateful to Joseph for making it possible to evaluate the TP 2.0.
The improvements are in immediacy and 3-Dimensionality. Voices have realistic character and subtle details are more apparent. This is amazing to me at this stage of the break in period.
|
Hi fellow TP owners, I've been hung up on the subject of Reverse Polarity. I came across the subject on the soundstage site. It was written revering speaker leads for reversal will change the flow directions and will also affect resisters caps and so on here is the link for interest it's very informative!http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb101999.htm |
Hey guys,just wanted to share this with my US friends.New source for tubes thetoneshop@hotmailcom.Prices are in CDN$
I see he has some Siemens 1961 grey plates.If anyone is interested you're welcome to have them shipped to me in Sault Ste. Marie,Ontario and I will ship them to you from my business address in Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan 49783.That way you will avoid brokerage and duties. |
Thanks Mark - I queried him
Joe |
Ralphcast
Interesting polarity article - another thing to ponder. |
Ralphcast and Markwatkiss, good findings, thanks ! |
I received four matched Amperex 7308 White Lable PQ's today. Initial listen is wonderful. Best I can describe they seem a bit wetter and warmer than the Sieman gold pins (provided as TP upgrade) with a nice sound stage and localization of instruments, lively, and a "break your heart" beauty to some passages. I am at some disadvantage in that my DAC is in for repair (one channel stopped working last week) and so I am using a Yahama DVD player as source at the moment. Can't wait to hear these tubes with my usual front end. (Well, I guess I will have to wait:) |
Gammmajo,
Does your Siemens have a white falcon logo on them ?
I'm interested in trying the Amperex you mentioned.
Are you getting a larger stage size with the Amperex ? |
Pat and Gammajo,
I wanted to share my experience with you. I mentioned this before and I am more convinced that Joseph's power cord is an absolute match with the Audio Horizon's TP 2.0 pre. I just played Basia's "Time and Tide" cd and I am enthralled with its sound. I am using the Black Sand Silver Reference on the SET amp with Joseph's PC and the combo is "magic". I have this disc on LP and am familiar with Basia's voice in a live performance venue.
Its an INSANE bargain not to try it out. Its the Premium power cord for $190.00!
Gammajo please keep us informed when you get your source together. |
Rxman Yes the sound stage appears wider, yet less difuse with better localization of instruments. I think that it is also a bit deeper but not dramatically so.
La45 Thanks for the suggestion I have his XLR interconnects, but already have Guerilla audio power cord that I like. I guess I can try on the 30 day trail. Who know how much better it can get with this preamp! |
No White Falcon label on the Siemens, just E188CC |
La45 and Gammajo,
I have a Shunyata King Cobra V-1 on my preamp and two more for my trans and dac, so that's pretty over-kill for me.
As far as the Siemens, I'm a bit mixed about the *ECC88* non-gold pins I have, and the *E188CC* gold pins Gammajo has.
I'll call Joseph or a tube source to find out what, if any sonic differences exist.
|
Best I understand, and I am new to this, is that in the family of 6DJ8 tubes which are used in the AH preamp, the 6922 and 7308 designations were premimum versions of the 6DJ8 rated as 10,000 hours with 6922 the premium industrial version and 7308 the guareenteed low noise version. European designations for these same tubes are the 6DJ8=ECC88, the 6922=E88CC, and the 7308=E188CC. According to Joes Tube Lore:
The Siemens E88CC is characterized by warm, lively, palable and real quality to individual performers, not recommended if your system is already bright. The ECC88 is similar with a slightly forward balance, the E188CC is preferred by him to the cca as slightly warmer, more vibrant and wetter, and is his favorite Siemens, though he prefers Amperex. He describes Siemens cca's (Victor's favorite)as pricey, slightly more dimensional, transparent, and focused compared to these others but lacking a bit of bass punch and slightly dry in comparison. And best I understand the early sixties version of all these tubes tend to be better than late sixties and newer. These early version ofetn come in yellow/blue boxes and have all gray plates. Later version may be in orange/blue boxes. A full guarenteed quad of early cc'a is currently selling on ebay for about $1,600 which puts them out of my league if I want to stay married, which I do:). Hope this helps. Anyone agree or disagree with the descriptions or terminology? |
Guess what Gammajo ?
I returned from Joe's Tube Lore and a couple other sites after Googling ECC88 and E188CC !!
Sorry to put you through the paces dude, I was gettin lazy.
Hey, at least it will be there for the rest of the groupies to see !!
Thanks much. |
No problem - thought it would be good to have it here as a reference. Plus I wanted to hear any varying opinions about its accuracy to see if we can use it as our Siemens Bible. |
Hi guys. I don't know if eveyone remembers but about a week ago, I replaced Joseph's upgraded Hovland output caps with the V-cap OIMP caps and after 150 hours of break-in my jaw is still on the floor. I will post a little mini-review when they reach their 300 hour or so final break-in. I can, in the meantime, confidently state, IMHO, that after 96 hours, the V-caps handily surpassed the Hovland by many orders of magnitude. I have e-mailed Victor to order a pair for he and Joseph's evaluation, so when and if this happens, you might want to get some more opinions, but at this juncture, I feel that Chris Ven Haus has developed a revelatory cap that turns Joseph's already amazing bang-for-your-buck preamp into a truly world class preamp of immense musicality. I am drawn now into the music more than ever before and am hearing things that surpass what any tweak or component that I've ever added to my system. I am truly amazed at the differences. Stay tuned for a final update in about a week or so. |
Regarding "Joe's Tube Lore", this is one man's opinion, of tubes in his system, in one component(his dac, I believe), so take his recommendations as a " your mileage might vary" standpoint. Here's hoping that you'll all find the one tube that sounds best in your preamp. |
Way to go Sherod.
Count me in on this one. |
