Anyone famaliar with the manufacturer,and in particular this pre amp.The credentials and testimonials seem impressive.The advertised 10 day audition is appealing.
I just receieved the 2.1RPNB for trial , plus interconnects and power cord with the Seimans tubes. The unit was well packaged and looks well built. Unfortunatly, I will be out of town most of next week.
First impression, there does seem to be a shift in center stage to the right of center . I hope this just some strange breakin in behavior.
Ozzy, I would allow at least 60 hours of continous play before you do some serious listening. Maybe you can put a tuner on it while you are gone to slowly break it in. The Hovland caps, as well as the Blackgates take a few days to settle in so the off-center soundstage is more than likely a break-in issue. As you have heard, the Blackgates are notorious for long break-in periods. I'd give it a couple of weeks before you do some serious listening.
I brought Ozzy's perception that there "does seem to be a shift in center stage to the right of center" to Joseph's attention, since we are always attentive to ways to improve the preamp.
Here is Joseph's response, edited just a little: "The gain deviation between channels is 0.2 dB; the tracking error from the volume pot is -1 dB or better when the volume pot is set at -60dB position. This could be an issue for the n version since it has higher gain than nB if the system has highly sensitive loudspeakers. It will be hard to find tighter tolerance available from the supplier of the motorized pot; it will be much easier to get regular pot in tighter tolerance."
I take this to mean that while the the output deviation is small, at some points on the pot at certain gains, with certain highly sensitive speakers, a 1 dB deviation between channels could occur. Sometimes other factors unrelated to the preamp can also contribute a small amount to the perceived deviation.
I take it, without his needing to comment, that Joseph will look for a tighter tolerance pot.
Victor, I am a bit confused. Does this issue only apply to motorized volume controls, meaning the remote controlled units? Also it would seem that dead center image is pretty sensitive. I can move my head a few inches left or right and slightly change the apparent centrality of the sound in my system.
I have the remote version with all of the upgrades and here is what I have found. So many variables impact channel balance that moving my head an inch or two to the right or left is all that is needed to get to that SWEET SPOT of perfect channel balance.
My furniture placement, the recording, room treatments, room shape, other gear and the ear wax level in a particular ear! all impact channel balance. No issue at all with my AH preamp's ability to throw a perfect center image. In fact, this pre is the champ at throwing a wall of sound with a wonderful center image. I find using the XLR's outs also improves the size and focus of the stage.
My only issue is wondering if I should spend the $300 on the new upgrades? How much better is it etc..............
Joseph uses a very high quality pot on both the motorized and the manual. The manual is superior to the motorized in terms of channel balance being virtually dead on. We do not feel the preamp is out of balance either at the outputs or at the pot, and I explained why using the specs. It is possible it appears that way to the customer, but that could be because his old preamp was out of balance, because his room is unbalanced, etc.
In trying to reassure people that there is no problem with the preamp, I see I have misled people there is.
In trying to be reassuring, I see I have only succeeded in raising anxieties.
There is no problem with the preamp's balance. We consider this customer's problem, if there is a problem and not simply a difference from his old balance, an anomaly.
Victor - No worries! My anxiety did not rise with your post, rather I was trying to suggest that you might be overly worried given percieved balance can be influenced by as Bill mentioned by earwax et al. My AH imaging is dead-on and beautifully dimensional.
Victor, I also have no anxieties about what you wrote. I have very good center staging with my preamp, but careful room placement of my speakers and proper room acoustics has played the larger role in that department. I have to admit that Joseph did a great job initially when voicing his preamp with the Hovland caps. Joseph might have since found even better caps, but the 4.7 uf Hovlands have a " breath of life" to them that are enthralling. In my experimentation with several types of caps, I recently tried a 4 uf Hovland and the 4.7uf value which Joseph chose sounds much more evenly balanced. Joseph does indeed have very good hearing. My hat's off to him in the development of this preamp.
Joseph and I like to keep this Discussion Forum informed of news about Audio Horizons that will soon be breaking. With that in mind, I would like to announce a new Audio Horizons product—the TB 5.0 tube buffer stage. We will be running our first ads the end of August.
The TB 5.0 is a tube buffer stage meant to supplement the solid state output of a preamplifier, tuner, CDP or DAC in order to impart to it some of the harmonic richness and the slower, more musical decay time characteristic of tube designs.
About six weeks ago, I heard the first prototype, and yesterday I heard the first production unit. As usual, the production unit is always far superior to the prototype, which itself was impressive.
We listened to the tube buffer stage, using a TB 5.0n, between a solid state preamp and amp, between a solid state tuner and both a solid state preamp and the TP 2.1, between a solid state upgraded CDP and a solid state preamp and the TP 2.1, and we compared the solid state Audio Horizons DAC 2a with it and without it and compared this to JosephÂ’s tube DAC, the TD 3.0. In every configuration, there was a decided and marked improvement over what preceded it.
The sound seemed to open out; the harmonic texture of the music was much more pronounced; the midrange was sweeter, smoother and more rich; the dryness which almost always characterizes solid state equipment disappeared; and all this was accomplished with no sense of loss, in part because as usual, the TB 5.0 is so quiet---117 dBv in the 5.0 version, -120 dBv in the 5.0n version. Distortion is quite low, channel separation and dynamic range excellent. To our ears, there were no losses and only a sense of significant improvement.
As you might expect the TB 5.0 is as sensitive to tube complement as JosephÂ’s other design. With two Siemens gold pin E88CCÂ’s it really came alive.
The genesis of the product stemmed from an A-B between my upgraded Sansui TU-X1 tuner and an upgraded Marantz 10B, in which the X1 excelled in so many areas, but not in warmth, sweetness and harmonic texture. Joseph suggested adding a tube buffer stage to it. The rest followed inevitably.
The TB 5.0 shares the same slim line 17” chassis used in the TP 8.0. Incorporated in certain solid state tuners with adequate room like the Sansui TU- 717 or the Kenwood KT 8300, it costs $475; in its stand alone version it costs $595. The 5.0n costs $725 and includes an on/off switch. For balanced inputs and outputs, add $200.
This 5.0 represents the last of our product introductions for the this year. In the back of our mind we are exploring an amp, but amps occur in so many different configurations, and there are so many considerations to take into account, that we will have to proceed slowly.
We will be running two different ads for the 5.0, one in the FM Tuner section, one in the solid state preamp section and one in the tweak section. Those interested, can keep an eye out for them.
Sherod - thanks for exploring the different caps for us and for reporting the results. I was very interested in them. Victor and Joseph Congradulations of your new buffer. Its a great option for to explore the enhancement of tubes without changing major pieces of what might have been put together painstakingly to achieve synergy.
I have a Harman/Kardon Citation Eighteen tuner that Joseph modded about a year or so ago for me. It's the only solid state component in my system. I can't imagine it sounding better. I wonder what this new tube buffer would do to the sound?
I would love AH to come out with an amp. Here is my two cents worth on the type of amp you should develop. It should be an SS amp and it should also be powerful. I would say 200 watts/channel as a minimum. Here are my reasons.
- I find a good preamp mated with good SS amp gives you all the tube "sound & benefits" needed. Having a nice tubed DAC or CD player makes an SS amp even more attractive.
- I am a long time tube nut, but of late have heard SS amps that sound every bit a good as the best tube amps. The current Belles 350 Reference is one example. SS has come a long way! No need to deal with big output tubes that are hot and need replacing etc....
- Powerful SS amps deliver the scale and impact needed to create a live performance setting in a living room.
- Mate this with an AH pre and tubed DAC and you have MUSIC!!!
Joseph and Victor, get a Belles 350 Reference as a benchmark and go for it.
Joseph might agree with you guys regarding SS amps. I believe he has a pair of Levinson monoblocks( personally tweaked and modded) in his personal system. Victor has a pair of older VTL monoblocks which Joseph also tweaked and modded for him. Right now I have the VAC Musicblocs( tubes) and the sound matches very well with my TP 2.0n. I haven't tried a SS amp yet with Joseph's preamp. I can imagine that it would be difficult for Joseph in deciding which type of amp to come out with. You have the tube amp camp and the SS amp camp, and then there's the Hybrid amp camp, the Class D only camp,etc. The list goes on and on. When it comes to amps, there are too many audiophiles with varied tastes. I don't have a clue of an idea to recommend Joseph when it comes to amps. In the meantime, I'm happy with my current system so I won't be considering any more amps for a while.
I forgot to mention that amps and speakers also have to be matched up properly. Another tough decision for Joseph because of the wide variety of speakers in our systems. Yes, I can understand with Grannyring's recommendation of a 200W amp, but what about the die-hard SET camp using these amps on their ultra hi-efficiency horn systems. I have read a few posts where some audiophiles have gone with the new Zu speakers which are very efficient and are selling their mega-power amps for lower wattage SET, etc. Just another example making it difficult for Joseph to make a decision.
I switched from solid state amplification to SET combo with a 95db efficient speaker and never looked back. Its very revealing especially with Joseph's preamp. It also makes it possible to match inexpensive digital as the source while preserving musicality.
I also made the switch to SET 2 years ago and came back to my current, more conventional, set up with the AH dac, pre and Belles Ref 350 amp. They drive a pair of Dali Grand full range speakers (90db effecient).
I liked my SET system which consisted of George Wright 2a3 amps, Cain & Cain IM Ben speakers, matching subs, George Wright preamp and a Audio Aero tubed CD player. In the end I missed the scale and impact of a "full range" system. Sure, this system could play very loud and had good dynamics, but in the end it was not as flexible it terms of playing all kinds of music well. Loved the intimacy of SET, but found I could have it with my current system and enjoy improved dymanics and scale on other music.
I only say AH should consider an SS amp as I think (?) the SET lover is a far smaller group and potential market. I have also found one can get most of that SET sound with a carefully matched and thought out dynamic system. I know some SET systems can be dynamic and have a good degree of impact and scale, but I think we can agree they are still a step behind the best "conventional" systems in this regard.
Agree on all points. I believe what you are describing is personal taste and style. My system can be very dynamic (tube change, maxed out front end, etc) given the source, and since my speakers extend to 22 hz, its sufficiently scaled to my personal taste. My room is a significant component and I am glad its not so conventional.
I have been able to tweek Joseph's preamp to maximize midbass and bass dynamics with little compromise. The amp I am using is custom with 6 seperate power supplies as the main generator, so there is no craping out on dynamic peaks. So the heart is Josephs AH pre and the amp/speaker are the brains. Perhaps the only weakness is the digital front end I am temporarily using. But perhaps not.
A friend came to visit and declared the system outrageously good and was shocked at the bass output of the system.
Overall, perhaps the decision is going to be more who is the bigger audience and you are probably correct on that score. Either way, I predict he will be successful.
Front end: Modified by Joseph. Toshiba 3990 Preamp: Audio Horizons with custom isolation SET: Custom 7 watt Speakers: Gabrielle Rosinante Cables: Gabrielle Revelation Golds
La45, I would love to know more about your amp. Who made it etc? It sounds very interesting to me. You're right about personal tastes and style. Funny thing is they change and someday I may be back to a SET amp. Don't know, but for now I am pleased with my current set up - just as you are.
It was a gentleman who built it for his own system and decided to let it go since it mated extremely well with my speakers. When I looked at similar designs I could not believe the difference in power supply capacitors in comparison for about 10x the price of this amp.
The problem is I do not believe he is producing this amp anymore.
La45, Can you tell me what mods Joseph did to your Toshiba SD-3990? Also, a brief description of sound of CD's before and after mods? How much for the mod?
I believe Joseph changed a chip on the digital board and upgraded the power supply bank ,installed an IEC connector so I could use his power cord. I still have the non modified player and the main difference is in dynamics, midrange and overall soundstage dimensional presentation.
Yep, he knows what he is doing and I encourage you and anyone looking in, to take advantage of his good taste when it comes to modifications. I would luv to send him my amp so he could lower the noise level. I believe this will rock my world alright. Alas, the darn thing weighs more than 50lbs due to all those power caps.
Hello all audio horizons fans, i use nuforce se v2s amps, was checking to see if anyone has used 2.1 or 2.0 pre with nuforce amps. From what i have read here i sure would like to give 2.1r with possibly more extras a try in my system. I have a marsh p2000t pre that i use on occasion and like that tube sound with nuforce. thanks
The thought has crossed my mind (more than once, in fact).....but finances will force a wait, and I don't want to waste Joseph's time until I'm in a position to pull the trigger, which will be a while. However, from what I can gather, this sounds like a fabulous preamp, and it may be what I end up with. Thanks for your encouragement. The enthusiasm of Audiogon members for a product actually does mean a lot to me.
STLtrains - Your query is very welcomed on the thread, sorry I have no experience with the Nuforce amps. If they mate well with other tube pres, they should do well. I know that if you email Victor with your amp specs he will check out the technical matching of the equipment for you.
Gammajo your response is appreciated thank you, i have been in email contact with Victor and a gentleman he is. i have a couple of preamps that i am considering seriously along with 2.1, bryston bp26, and pass x1. its tough to buy with out trying first. thanks again
I have read where other tube pres have worked out well for some owners of the Nuforce amps. I don't know how the TP 2.1 pre will match, but a quick e-mail to Victor would be advised.
Has anyone been able to communicate with Victor lately through e-mails? I e-mailed him and he's not responding. Also, I tried to e-mail Joseph at the last address he had: Ading@prodigy.net and the e-mail is being kicked back to me. Has Joseph changed his e-mail address?
Here is some feedback on the Audio Horizons phono preamp. A friend of mine who has been auditioning one kindly lent me his for a few days. I do not have much to compare it to in terms of other phono preamps and I am not sure of the "greatness" of my cartridge, but I am putting on the same artist and title on CD and phono and listening that way A-B. I am impressed with the phono being very natural, easy and relaxed sounding yet with sparkle and snap. It is very close to the sound of excellent CDs in terms of things that CDs do well. Air and bloom are very good and sound stage is excellent. It is an ultraquiet unit. I would be very happy to purchase the AH unit. I have used Dark Side of the Moon, some Liszt Transcendental Etudes, Joan Sutherland arias, some solo guitar and piano and a symphonic piece for the comparisons. Thorens 180TD turntable, Stanton cartridge, AH preamp, Aragon 8008BB amp and Von Sweikert VR4SR speakers. Hope this helps anyone considering the phono pre.
I found NOS tubes really improved the overall sound of this preamp. I highly reccommend the Siemens tubes that Joseph places in the unit as an upgrade. I tried some nice Mullards and Amperex Bugle Boy (white lbl), but over time I found the Siemens to be the perfect balance of neutrality and warmth. The Mullards were wonderful, but a little to "tubey" for my ears. Lost some of the transparency and softened up the dynamics a little to much. At first I loved them, but over time I found the above to be true.
To my ears the stock tubes lacked body and warmth and in the end were just less musical.
These comments are relative of coarse as the unit sounded very good with stock tubes. NOS's did improve the sound as noted above.
Bill, if you knew Tvad like I think I know him, I'll be willing to bet that he's already cherry-picked a NOS pair of Siemens CCa to try in locations one and three. By the way, I'm currently beta-testing( so to speak) a new, unknown power cord line and this new cord has raised my system to a new level of sonic bliss for me. I've only tried one version on my VAC monoblocs, but later this week I am going to put another version on my TP 2.0n preamp. I feel like a kid on Christmas Eve. What a thrill!
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