Are you Guys Rich or What!?

That Male Hunting instinct is at it's best when it's in the search of good deals on used high end gear (IMHO). I don't know about the rest, but I know that half the fun for us is researching, comparing, talking to people, getting good deals, trying something new - maybe loving it - maybe selling it the next day ----- The most commonly used phrase around here is "when we get _____, then we're done! " HA

Dud,what speakers are looking to buy?

hey, sometimes some of us are actually trying to improve the sound of our systems, not yust spend money - my current speakers retailed for $3800 (tax/delivery not included), the ones i'm now wanting to buy retail for $2265, delivered.

Ramstl...talk about upgrading the system! Just think what 100K worth of micro-dots would do for your system...vast improvment on the accutity of your hearing I bet. As a matter of fact I remember one night in my freinds appartment, hearing a $20 ghetto blaster make sounds(music)that my 5K system to this day has not been able to match! We were so excited about what was coming out of that blaster that it had me and 2 other freinds jumping up and down on the couch and doing cartwheels from the pure pleasure of the cassette tape that was playing. If I remember correctly we were laughing so hard we started crying. I guess it has a lot to do with your frame of mind! Hmmmm...that's kinda of interesting...imagine that, your frame of mind, affecting what your hearing and whether it sounds good or not? Doesn't sound too far outside the laws of phychology. I wonder if we all suffer from that a bit. I wonder if this could be related to up-graditis, that thing inside that tells us no matter how much we get or spend we still are not satisfied and thirst for more.

Hey now! It just a matter of values, balance and priorities. Anyone can spend their money anyway they want, just don't tell me how to spend mine. It all relative, man! As a matter of fact, I want people to buy the best, spend the most and trade in often. It is part of the system that encourages engineers to push the limit and thus trickle down tech. I want to see what can be done with unlimited resources which thus has implication for other aspects, blah, blah, blah....... and of course I love that cheap used gear! Hey Axomoxa, was that "how many micro-dots or micro-buses." Well, I guess today it is more like micro brew. "What a long strange trip it will be!"

Honey, can you get the maid - I need a grape. Ah, that's the life, rich and sassy. NO! I'm far from rich, just an addict. I traded in the drugs of the '60s for musical nervana. I drive a ten year old car with 180,000 and it runs great. My clients although they spend $2-4 million dollars on there houses I design don't care what I drive, and my friends don't care either. I once tried to play rich, but after a major heart attack and two years of no income, food shelves and the humility I do what I want to do. I had a $45,000 car, was I rich? I had a nice house, was I rich? No, but others thought I was. Now I'm rich in my soul, live very simple and love my music. It's all about priorities, mine are far different than most peoples, but at least I have a common bond here at Audiogon.

Good food for thought kthomas. If I had the time AND the money my choice would be easy.

If I had a $100K system at home today, I'd spend my time brooding about why I wasn't yet able to afford the $1M Grand Enigma speaker system. I'd be miserable that there was something better out there than what I currently had. I'd be angry at my wife for not letting me spend the money.

Other aspects of the question:

Which are you most likely to spend $100K on first - a car or an audio system?

If the notion of a $100K audio system seems excessive, does having five $20K systems seem more excessive, less excessive or equally excessive? (main room, living room, bedroom, office and vacation home).

If you had $100K you were willing to spend on either an audio system or going to see concerts, what is the likelihood you'd actually have time to go to that many concerts? I don't have the $100K for either and I'm already out of time to go to anywhere near enough concerts to burn up $100K any time soon.

Just wonderin'

Right on Ramstl! Just tryin' to spread the good hippie word :-) Think of all those concerts you could see for 100K! Not to mention it would buy a whole lotta microbusses to get your friends to the show. "We use to play for silver, now we play(ed) for live...!" Shit for 100K I could book the damm band to play in my living room! I bet if I called Phil Lesh and offered to donate 100K to the Unbroken Chain foundation, he would get his friends and come over and play at my house. Shoot.. for 100K I might even get Neil Young to sit in with him. But that would only be one night and I suppose if you have your own system for 100K you can experience it every night. Now that I think about it, I could be closer to the Dark Side than I originally thought!

Hey, Axomoxa! Is that "Steal your face" or Steal your inter-face" ? Anyway, I'm GDTRFB!

An oponent of blatent consumerism and materialism, I occasionally find it hard to rationalize to myself my own spending for audio gear. Certainly from the lowly depths of middle class America, 50k - 100k systems seem as extravagent as using Springbank 25 to mix up scotch and Coke. Indeed there are probably more 'noble' appropriations for this kind of cash. Of course, I do not question the right of people to spend their money as they would, however I think I do have the right to question the judgement of all luxurious excess. Still, I'm not so full of myself that I think that I'm imune to these same lapses in judgement from time to time. One thought that all AG critiques of conspicuous consumption should keep in mind is that all of us have probably had to defend our spending on these things at one point another. Thus, I think it not improbable that in the face of constant criticism a certain amount of defensiveness may develop. I know I get a little irritated when people start hrmphing abou the cost oft my (in the context of this board) modest system. So perhaps a little more grace than normal is required in discussing this topic.

Thomas Haliberton. It's .....sorry

Thomas Haliberton. I just a matter of perspective and priority. Every time you see a 50,000 plus Mercedes in traffic just think what the driver could be listening to at night if he/she had bought a Toyata Camray. There's lots of wealth out there it's just only about one in a hunderd have it. Don't feel that not having it will exclude you from having a great system. Putting away 75.00 every second week and buy used over a period of 8to10 years will build you a system that 9/10th's of the best. Read David99's post above for a great yet affordabe upgrade path. Yet another analogy. In the last few months I had to buy 3 high end laptops for some of my wife's employees. $ 18.000 CDN and after 3 years they are not worth their weight in pototoes. I could have bought a Simaudio moom amp,pre and cd and had great music for 20 years. Cheers steve

Tubegroover, Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with your gear or anybody else's. It is your questioning individuals on anything that I protest. Ya, you hit a nerve when you once again questioned me on my post of the FIM PCs. Remember when I raised your eyebrows? You made an unfair accusation because of my 3 posts on this wonderful sounding PC and 3 days later you do the same thing regarding MIT. I guess it is ok for you but not me. Peace tubegroover.

Brulee if it makes you feel good do it. Ye protest too much. I must have hit a nerve ending. My questioning is the sanity (insanity?) of 50k 100k 250k(?) components and all the underlying reasons for their existence in the first place. I don't see it as good value. How much is too much? Everyone has their "uncle" point, mine is at a lower threshold than yours, thats all. I'm talking about my values, NOT YOURS BRULEE. If you want to critique my system with my "ancient gear" (You REALLY proved my point to myself after that remark) after listening, I would welcome it. Always value an astute opinion. I'm sure with as much gear as you apparently have owned, some good recommendations could be made. I could then go out and pay maybe 30 or 40% of retail on the used market.

People who criticize others because they are upgrading, or spend there $$$ on some of the more esoteric equipment because they can, raise my eyebrows. Tubegroover say's "I guess I do question individuals that are always changing out expensive gear in a never ending quest for owning the best" Who are you to question anyone on how they spend there money. Would you like it if I questioned you on your ancient audio gear. It is not always true but more times than not, you get what you pay for. I guess I am one of those irrational non-sensible ones. It must be true cause Tubegroover said so. I think you are losing your groove tube. Cornfedboy, WOW, you blow my mind. Would you teach me to write?

It is beginning to sound like a sermon here, and not Audiogon. Axomoxa, it seems to me that you are still judging people by your own yardstick of limitations. My point is that it is possible to donate 100,000 to charity, assist friends and family, help little old ladies across the street, and still spend $100,000 on a sound system. You seem to think that the person buying such a sound system has only that much money, and splurged it all on a stereo. Your "too far" seems not very far to me. I bet it would not be too hard for you to imagine buying a beautiful Vac integrated amp with Synergistic Research cables, Avalon speakers, A Theta transport with DCS upsamplers, 100 favorite CD's and a nice Eames leather leather chair to listen in if you tried. I hope you win a million dollars in the lottery and get the chance to put your money where your mouth is. Good luck to you, either way.

I was suprised at the roll that we got going on this one. I want to also say that I did not mean to guilt anyone or make them defend their decisions. I believe it is your money and you should do with it how you see fit. What I intended was for us all to look at how much is too much. I think that we have done that here. I also wanted to remind those in the audio community that there are many many folks in great need. My personal value is if you have 100K to spend on entertainment (not professional business applications)then you mightthink about your local church, charity, or organizations and lend them a helping hand. It is people that have this kind of money that can help if they want to. I am going to climb off my high horse and go home to install my new spk cables I picked up on this site for $240.00. It may not be the absolute sound to some of you, but I am hoping to hear an improvement over the free stuff the dealer gave me when I purchased my spks. It is hard for me to imagine laying out 10K for some NBS stuff or whatever, and achieving a proportionally higher amount of satisfaction. I guess it's all relative. There is a point though that anything in life can be overdone. I am not the one to tell you if and where that point is. It is for each of us to decide. If I did win the lottery I would not run out and buy 100K worth of audio. I would buy a lot of stuff, but would keep the system I have. Ok, I would probably upgrade my cd player to the EAD Ultradisc 2000, and some new cds, but that's it!

Kthomas and Shubertmaniac, As I said whatever makes you happy. Live and let live.

Hell, if I won the lottery who needs audio. I would hire the Rolling Stones as my house band, ok, maybe not them, but I bet I could get The Emerson String Quartet: Schubert, Mozart, Spohr,Brahms,Beethoven string quartets live in your house! Everyday! Wow! Now is that being morally bankrupt? Actually, if I won the lottery I think I would buy a Hinckley 53' sailboat. Hell with audio let the waves be my music.

Nilthepill - only 1/2 right - if I won the lottery tomorrow I would go get that 100K system, but I would return to this site as well. I'd have to brag somewhere.....

Gosh! You can write a book about this from the all of the above replies. My theory is really simple. Buy what makes you happy-be it for music, name brands, or to show -off.No excuses. I waited for long time for what I wanted (Full range speakers, power amp to go with itand works) untill when I could afford. I won't lower my standards. That has been my theory for every thing in life. Wait till you afford it or else don't buy, don't whine, don't rationalize. Buy nothing but the best. Just be Happy. I bet if you were to win a lottery tommorrow, everyone of you will go get that 100+ k system and never return to this sorry ass site.

Cornfedboy, I am not sure who you are talking to, but it is safe to assume that I must be one of your audience. It does not take Marxism to talk about morality. Charity is still morally superior to, say, spending extra money on yourself even in our society, isn't it? But, nobody will blame you for not rising above the norm of capitalistic instincts in our society. But, we will congratulate you for rising above the norm, though. In other words, good thing is good thing is good thing. No need to lean on ideology for morality. Not to feel too badly if you have not done a lot of good things with your money. I have not. Nobody has to in the US. But, sharing still is a good thing. Robbing is bad. And, neither is neutral in our society. In your context, morally neutral. That is how I see it, and my moral stance with money has been mostly neutral. Still, sharing is morally fulfilling as someone said here, and I do admire people who does that. Nonetheless, that is not to propose how much is "morally acceptable." Only you can determine that in the US. Are you materially affluent enough to buy your gears, so that the opportunity cost is minimal (that was the argument of mine)? Then, that is it. If you want to go into "morally acceptable" figures, that is about it. No ideological issues here. Who is trying to take the gears from your hands? By the way, there are rich Democrats and even rich Socialists. I am not sure why you are assuming so much here to put forth an argument nobody has hinted. If interested, we can talk some more tonight..

or maybe Park Ave Audio? BMPNYC, (Butler Music Productions NEW YORK CITY)

Nloyer, Good to hear from another New Yorker. See you at... Sound by Singer, Stereo Exchange, Audio-Video Salon, or maybe Harvey's?

no...not rich here either....but I am hooked. I had been using a Hafler 110pre and 220 amp with Polk monitors for YeARS. These pieces had been moved into more colledge apartments than I can count. I finally got the bug at age 28 and decided to put a "real" system together. Started with the little CJ tube integrated and JMLabs Daline 3.1's and was really happy. I did purchase new from dealer (amp) and used speakers (same dealer). Then I discovered Audiomart (high end classified via US Postal) and Audiogon. I was able to quickly upgrade my amp to a Prem. 11A at no additional cost (after selling the CAV-50 integrated). I spend a little money on some sonus fabers (direct from Italy at a nice price). After time I opted to plunk down the $$ on a Levinson CD source. I must say....I have approx. 10-11k in the stereo which accumulated over 12 months or so. It seemed like a lot of money....but I wouldn't sell my system for the same money today! sidenote-....there are many systems that cost less than mine that sound stellar...high cost is not a prerequisite for a great sounding system....patience and listening are. It may be a bit easier to find the "sound" you want if you are able to spend big bucks....but you can do it on a budget if you have the patience.

This argument can't really be definitively solved, ever. My last system was a $50K retail 2 channel CD listening system that I paid about $35K for. Not that much of a bargain, but not all the components were used. I auditioned component for months, and that's not over months an hour here an hour there. In New York City there are over 5 high end audio stores, most of which I spent 10 hours listening in, one of which I spent at least 40+ hours listening in to find the right system for me. I listened to more expensive things that sounded worse, and more expensive things that sounded better. The point is that it is completely individual. I DO believe that most systems, given an unlimited budget can be improved to the owners ears. It is statistically unlikely that this would not be the case. But we can all find mediums. For instance, a very respected (by me) audiophile associate of mine loves Krell amps. I would rather have an Aiwa than their 600 lb. monoblocks. But that is the sound he loves. Recently I had to sell my 2 channel system due to financial issues, but was able to replace it with a very personally acceptable home theater system which does music wonderfully for only $12K with a retail of $24K. It comes down to buy used when it makes sense, and more money never hurts.

Sometimes it is a matter of priorities. Some people think nothing of spending $25,000 on a new boat that they keep at some dock and use only a handfull of times. Others will spend lots of money on new clothes, cars or even going out to dinner X's times per week. If I let my wife have it her way we would spend $500 a month just going out to dinner. Let's see that's $6,000 a year. That could get you a good used system. Do the math and fiqure out what you could get over a 5 year span. Anyway, no I'm not rich. I just have my priorities. To tell the truth, I'm kind of tired of hearing people complain about the cost of a $700.00 cd player, when that same person would spend $200 on a pair of sneakers. I would agree that at a certain price point the value curve begins to flatten out, however, overtime, with well used budgeting skills, a person can put together a nice system that won't kill them. Come on, a good case of beer will run you $35.00!

Cornfedboy, thanks for sending out a reality check here. I don't know about the Republican party aspect, but you made some good points IMO. Imagine for a second that you are a gifted designer/engineer/inventor. You have an idea that could potentially enhance lets say... multi channel playback, it takes $100,000 to fund your research and developement for 3 years. You are now able to produce the worlds next, "best" playback device. With investors you manufacture 3000 of these devices, costing $500 each to produce, totaling 1.5 million in hardware alone, not to mention paying 5 employees. You spend $30,000. to advertise, all the while praying your idea is accepted. Your total cost to produce and market this product is $4000 each. You have mortgaged your house and borrowed from friends to retain a controlling interest over this because you want to maintain design integrity and insure that you keep a fair share of the profit, should there be one. At your A/V dealer this product is displayed and demonstrated for the public, (costing the dealer some time and money). People check it out and find that they absolutely love the sound, and it would be a major improvement in your sound system, but it cost say... $14,000. That may seem "high' to some people, but you only get $6,500 at your wholesale price, giving you a $2,500 profit. You sell 1500 of them totaling $3,750,000. Minus your 2,000,000 investment gross profit is 1.5 mil. Split among investors you made $150,000. This enables you to afford to refine your copyrighted design and sell that to a major audio manufacturer for 2 mil. The public gets an even better playback device at a fraction of the original cost, say... $1,400. Change the numbers however you want, is the designer/inventor wrong for trying to build a better "mousetrap", and profiting from it? lets see, at first we had a $14,000 "over priced, self indulgent, conspicuously consumed" device, now the general public can get close to audio nirvana at 10% of the cost. Five years later, the same technology is available for $359 at Circuit city, and all the "less fortunate" people can now have some guiltless higher end fun. Why all the guilt tripping?. I have carefully spent around $15,000 over a 3 year period to come as close as I can to a $60,000 system. Would I have prefered to start out at that level?... Damn right I would. I would have been enjoying my system that much sooner, spending less time researching and negotiating, and more time listening to music.

Cogito - I wasn't trying to imply that your comments and ideas on controlling the price of high-end equipment was impractical. Actually, I was trying to point out that you have other people in the world who think along exactly the same lines, and I think your points have a great deal of merit. One of the points that the author of "Luxury Fever" makes is that the paradox we face is that it's a series of individual decisions that have consequences for the group as a whole. Nobody feels as though their making a different decision will affect the overall picture but, in fact, to actually change the overall picture a whole group has to make different decisions. The author's answer was to heavily tax things like $75K speakers as a way of getting large numbers of people who might purchase such a thing to not do so, while allowing those who REALLY want such a thing to still be able to obtain them. If this happened, the effect you suggest would quite likely occur - the high-end models would almost undoubtedly come down in price (and quite possibly performance / aesthetics), and the ultra high-end would undoubtedly go up in price, both because of the heavy tax and the need for the manufacturer to make their money on far fewer sales.

Cornfedboy is Right, Although i have not spent 100k on my system..somewhere around 30-35k. The point is I work my ass off to support my family and run my company and if the Left keeps taxing and regulating my butt off im going to start wacking them in the head with my heavy,imorale mono-block amps. If you need to find me ill be staying with cornfeedboy cause it sounds like his system sounds better than mine. Lee

I have an agreement with my wife that my music hobby can cost as much as we spend on a car. Given she has a passion for Alfas, that gives me a reasonable budget, but I am always suggesting she upgrades from time to time. If you are serious about this hobby I cannot see why you would spend more on a car than on your music, and try adding up the cost of owning a car sometime. I agree with you Tubegroover, throwing money at the best is just silly. As my brother once said "any idiot can put together a good system for $100,000, the real fun is putting something together for $10,000, or even a lot less, that approaches the best." I tend to focus a lot of my activity (outside of listening to music) on learning how to wring the most out of a given system.

I guess I do question individuals that are always changing out expensive gear in a never ending quest for owning "the best" which ties into the wretched excess comment. This has nothing to do with music reproduction as much as buying the latest most expensive toy which will certainly be replaced in short order. To each their own.

In answer to your 1st question Pls1 no, not if you are willing and able and it gives you pleasure. I also don't question, judge or begrudge anyone who spends it. My point is my personal values, not yours. I see no need to and maybe I would feel a bit guilty if I did. Why you ask? Because first off I don't think I need to in order to achieve a musically satisfying system of the highest order. 2nd I do believe that much of this ultra high priced gear is specifically aimed at separating one from their money. It is a play on the emotional irrationality of affluent audiophiles. It never seems to end with some guys and it has not a damn thing to do with musical satisfaction so much as wretched excess. Now you raise a very interesting point. My answer for me DOES change if it is attending live concerts. Concerts are a more enriching life experience to me than listening to an ultra expensive audio system by myself in a room. My wife loves concerts as much as I do. She doesn’t enjoy sitting in a room listening to music or share my love of well-reproduced audio. She has to be doing something. I, unlike you, don’t have someone special to share it with. Now for the last part of your question. One of the better things to do with that wealth which in my estimation would have a more beneficial effect on the economy overall “the trickle down effect” and is a better investment, (this all ties into my value conscious business head) would be to add real value to my home by putting in a dedicated listening room and buying more software. Beyond that, traveling the world to hear some of the great orchestras. How about that? BTW my audio only system would retail for 24K. I spent 9.2K for it (I’m another of the bottom feeders, can’t help it, I like a good deal). Other than ultimate low frequency extension I suspect it is knocking on the door of the best and is completely satisfying except for some fine-tuning to the analog front end.

As Danny DeVito says, use "other peoples money."

Over 4.5 years I've been able to build a fairly decent system of components at no cost to me. How, you ask? Simple. Buy a piece here, resell it, buy another, etc. There are a number of good buys at this and other used audio sites across the web. It really is worth what little time it takes to buy and sell.

Enjoy!
Coltrane1

I drive an older car. My system is under 10K. I don't change it that often, in fact I'm finally getting my second CD player in ten years. I take some of the money other people waste on cars and buy vinyl and cd's, and a new component every 18 months or so. It's cheaper than cars and more enjoyable, in my opinion. Also, good stereo components last years. I find music rewarding and a great way to unwind. I buy equipment to enjoy the music, not for the love of new gadgets. I think a person can easily buy a good stereo system on the money saved by putting off buying that new car an extra year.

Im not rich. But I have more than one music system, and my first (cost about $7500 total, retail list about $13k, including Harbeth Compact 7s that I bought new for half of their USA list price) gets me pretty close to the feeling that I'm in the presence of this young lady named Eva Cassidy who passed away a few years ago and whose rendition of Wade on the Water could convert the Devil himself. Id rather spend my money there than on a more expensive car, or whatever else you might spend money on. Depends on what makes you feel good. Plsl, thanks for the story. I'm in your debt. Danvetc, email me about the Harbeths. Oh, and Thomas, you can get great sound for about $1,500. Try a used or demo Denon 1650ar cd player, new Acoustic Energy Aegis One speakers, and a used NAD or Proton receiver or amplifier.

Whether the amount to spend is $7500, $10,000 or $12,500, it is clear that these amounts can bring you a lot of system, which, if selected carefully and bought used at a healthy discount, can compete with systems in the 50k and up category. A $100,000 system bought at retail with poorly matched components and with more attention paid to the price tag rather than the sound quality of the components will almost assuredly return less satisfaction than the system carefully bought at $7500, $10,000 or $12,500. In fact, I would cast a skeptical eye on any product which is priced ridiculously (20k amp, 15k preamp, 15k CD player, 30k speakers). Products like these are priced similar to a car. Think about the complexity of a car as compared to these products and tell me how they justify such a price. And although these products are usually very good, usually I have found they are not the best. Sometimes they aren't even good.

Buy used! I NEVER thought I'd end up with the system I've got now, and if you told me two years ago what I'd have today I would have fallen out of the chair! I've got $25,000 in a system that at retail would be $47,000. Shop around, I surely do not regret a penny. I have a stressful job and a few hours a week listening can take away my stress. That you cannot put a pricetag on!

ok, i'll ante up to get into this game. here's my hand: i've got one of them $50-100k systems that i've built up to for the past 30+ years. and, i'm damn proud of it, moral implications and all. you want it, you'll have to shoot me and wrest it from my cold, dead hands. FWIW, i betcha' i'm as left-leaning or more as anyone else on this thread. (just to give you some flavor: i not only lived through the tumultuous late 60's, i was already by then a lawyer, defending and bailing out the anti-poverty and anti-war protesters and going up against all the draft boards in iowa arogant enough to ignore the truly moral convictions of conscientious objectors; i never lost one of these cases.) nonetheless, after reading some of the really incredible pseudo-philisophical bullshit on this thread, i suggest audiogon add yet another category to their revamped list: post-marxist audiophilia. sure, i agree you can buy into an acceptable highend system for around $7.5k. but why should that fact limit the amount that is "morally acceptable" to spend to get a better sounding, or even better looking (to you), system? should noone be permitted to buy an armani suit, lest he then lust after ever-more exspensive italian clothes? ought we limit mercedes models available for sale to those under $75,000, fearing that doing otherwise will simply enhance the market for farrari's? give me a break guys. chances are, when you are economically able to move up the audio highend ladder, you'll not only do so but become a true beleiver in the republican party simultaneously.

Kthomas, your point well appreciated. As long as one is living in this society, he may not have moral superiority when it comes to the degree of consumption. But, that does not mean that there is no moral implications however strong or otherwise it is. As one previous poster pointed out, it also is all relative. In that sense, I am a culprit of this audiophile industry; thereby, I based my opinion not on morality but on pragmatism at individual level which I think can be more relevant to this issue though that can be as subjective as you pointed out. At the same time, the fact that I love something to death does not justify much if at all, though it may give us a clue to understand certain pattern of behaviors or consumption, when it comes to pragmatism. I love freedom to death, but I need to be responsible for my actions. One needs to think about his expenditure in that context. In other words, it would he helpful for one to think about his consumption behaviors in the light of pragmatic aspects once in a while. In this audiophile community, I think it is rather acceptable to say that I am willing to spend this much because I love them to death. Without talking about pragmatic aspects. For most of us with regular lives, it may not be O.K. Again, it is not to accuse anyone but to rephrase the followings. My morality may be no better than yours. nor may I be as pragmatic as you are. But, the issues are there for us to examine, flamed or otherwise. We all may not be that great or good morally or pragmatically; but, it would help us to think about the dimension. As I have said in the previous post, I am sure most of us are adamant in our positions. But, I am hoping that there are more people in the audiophile community who would agree with me not because that is a right thing to do but better for my own interests. Again, it is about individual pragmatism, not morality although I crudely rebutted one's claim of no moral issues involved here. If you can afford within "your" boundary of pragmatism, then what can others say in the society we are living in? I am hoping that audiophiles of middle class have a chance to examine the issues. Maybe, some people jocularly say that it is music and sound, stupid. Or, considering (therefore assuming) the pragmatic aspects. BUt.. Anyway, thank for the thoughtful comment... P.S. Would it not be better to have luxury items at cheaper price without having to take my comment as a impracticcal attempt to root such out (I did not mean it that way either)?

You know rich ain't what it used to be!!When I was a kid there was a local Jewish Deli(Bay Shore) which had a sign which said,"lean is lean...extra lean is extra". $30,40,50K just don't go as far as it used to. So, if you want to be in the big time, you'se gots to pays the piper. Unfortunately, great stuff often costs a lot, even used.

Interesting thread folks. For my 2 cents, I am a believer in two principals...price is relative, and the law of diminishing returns. I dont think anyone should feel guilty spending whatever amount they wish on a system--it's their money, they earned it, let 'em spend it as they wish. To add perspective, how many music lovers out there would gag at the prospect of dropping even $10K (or a bit more) on a fine audio system which will last many years, but yet won't hesitate to bite at the $60,000 BMW that they'll drive for 3-4 years? $75,000 is a very substantial sum to the majority of the public, more so than 98% of those people could ever dream of spending on an entertainment system. However to Bill Gates, he makes that much money while taking his morning dump. Should he limit himself to $7500? Probably not. Even if he can't hear a difference (my second point, coming soon...) he'll be inclined to spend much more simply because he CAN, and God bless him for it. This being said, I am a firm believer in diminishing returns, and while I believe a $1000 receiver DOES represent double the value of a $500 one (just my opinion, others may differ), I do NOT believe that a $100K system represents anywhrere NEAR double the value of a $50K system. I've had the good fortune to sit in the testing room of Madrigal Labratories (makers of Mark Levinson), and listen to their "dream system" , and while I was awed, I was surprised to find that, in truth, given the means, I still wouldn't spend THAT amount of money on that system (roughly $150 - 175K at the time)...I simply didn't hear that much $$$'s worth of value. I think that the majority of responders here have the right idea...that great audio IS within the means of a great many people, especially by shopping wisely, letting others pay for depreciation, doing your homework, and being patient. Let your means decide the investment, and your ears decide the value. Best wishes to all!!!

Bmpnyc, and everyone else, I am sorry if I typed kinda smug. I really did not intend to dismiss what you and others have said, I was attempting to gently voice toward Axomoxa. I will stand by my statement that material wealth does not, cannot, and will not bring true happiness. "He who dies with the most toys wins" is bullshit. (I know nobody here has said that, so bear with me.) I often present ideas that I am wrestling with inside my own head, trying to live a balanced life. (Do I really need those Harbeths....Yes!) I am a strong believer that an investment in a good system, at whatever price is comfortable for the buyer, is one of the sounder investments that can be made. (The kids can sell it off after your gone.) The joy of music makes me a better person to work for and be around. How much is that worth? [:)] Hang in there. Charlie

To Tubegroover: Is a pair of Dunlavy SC-V's with an equal amount spent on room treatment to give a fairly decent imitation of a live performance of The Rite of Spring or the Mahler 8th a status symbol? Does your answer change if someone has regularly gone out of their way to hear these pieces live? BTW and just for grins, what per cent of your lifetime income will you have spent on "better things to be done with such wealth" please be specific.

i've got about $12k into my rig, but i'm by no means rich - it's been built up over the years in bits-n-pieces. one of the amps i use i purchased in '85. oh, & i'm also a bargain-shopper - the retail price of my system is ~$35k. :>) but the whole fambly enjoys listening to the toons...

Thanks, KT.... Dan, I think you may have misunderstood me. In the 80's there was an extraordinary amount of money not being spent, but being held and manipulated by greedy manipulating, S.O.B.'s, can you say "Boesky"? I never saw people sleeping on the street until Reagan began implementing "trickle down economics", but I think it is fair to say that there is a tremendous amount of interdependance, and yes there is a "trickle down" factor, but I didn't intend that to be an economic guideline, just one of the many factors to consider when making judgements about what is "too much". I don't agree with the typical hate the rich attitude. You are who you are, rich, or not. I would not mind being rich, and I certainly would not mind buying Sony's top of the line video projector, a Camelot Roundtable DVD player, Avalon speakers, a great turntable, a Phillips 5 channel SACD player, Harmonic Technology Magic cables, and a beautiful house to put it all in. Would you?

As those who have read my previous posts know, I believe in VALUE when it comes to assembling a high-quality audio system. If you are just starting into this hobby, used gear is the best way to start, and there are some great buys on Audiogon. For about $5000, you can build a very good system based on CD sources. If you plan to invest in vinyl playback as well, you will have to add another $1000-1500. Here are some suggestions: 1. If you are going to use your system for home theater as well as audio, get a good quality DVD/CD player. The 16-bit CD is already "old technology", so get a DVD player with 24/96 capability. 2. Get a good quality integrated amp, such as Bryston's BP-60 or Musical Fidelity's CR3 (available from Audio Advisor), OR a good preamp/power amp combo from manufacturers such as B&K, Adcom, Rotel, Parasound, or Acurus. 3. Speakers: you can get a very good used pair of monitor speakers plus subwoofer for $1500-2000. Interconnects: either buy good quality used cables from this site (such as Kimber Silver Streak or Hero) or www.usedcables.com, or new ones from HomeGrownAudio or www.bettercables.com. By way of example, here is my current system that I have assembled primarily from purchases on Audiogon or from dealers such as "Bestofdeal@aol.com". My main speakers: Vandersteen 3A Signature (MSRP $3500 - paid $2500). Center channel speaker: Vandersteen VCC-1 (MSRP $500 - paid $325). Rear surround speakers: Coincident Triumph Signatures (MSRP $1100 - paid $650). DVD player: Pioneer DV-37 (MSRP $1000 - paid $650 new). Preamp / processor: Adcom GTP 750 (MSRP $1900 - paid $1150 for unit with 4 weeks use). Main power amp: Bryston 4B-ST (MSRP $2400 - paid $1650 new). Surround power amp: Adcom 5503 (MSRP $1300 - paid $650 nearly new). Speaker cables: Kimber Kable 8TC bi-wire pairs (MSRP $385 - paid $225 with terminations). Silver interconnects by HomeGrown Audio. Total cost of system (some new, some used): about &7500 without turntable, etc. If you add in my VPI HW-19 Mk 4 with Rega 900 arm and cartridge (MSRP about $3K - paid $1600), and a Sony 32" WEGA TV, the total cost of my home theater system is just over $10,000. That's less than the cheapest decent car on the market, and I get a hell of a lot more enjoyment from it than owning a Hyundai or Daewoo. The only "caveats" are: your value system must place good music and sound high on the priority list; you must be willing to assemble the system over time, as you find the right pieces; and you must be willing to act quickly to buy when pieces become available. If you have a year or so to invest in some shrewd shopping, you can build a great system for 35-50% less than MSRP.

Cogito - There is an excellent book titled "Luxury Fever" that discusses the phenomena you refer to of the constant need / push to define "the best" (of whatever) in increasingly fantastic (and expensive) terms. The author argues, much as you do, that by participating in these areas by purchasing the high-end version of whatever, you're fueling the need to move it to a higher level. Hence, the effect of buying a state-of-the-art $100K speaker system is that you're helping to push the definition of state-of-the-art to $200K. The author goes on to argue that this type of luxury should have the crap taxed out of it such that the only people who would actually pay for it are the truest of enthusiasts who are buying it for the enhanced performance.

Using the phrase "moral issue" is bound to inflame the conversation, and maybe those who have used it don't intend it as strongly as it sounds. At the very least, the subject of audio equipment and a specific price point is completely arbitrary as it relates to the moral aspects of this conversation - I just sold a rental house for the same price range as the audio equipment we're talking about even though I could have moved my family there, sold my more expensive house that we currently live in, and used the proceeds for a more noble cause. The same type of thing happens dozens of times a week to almost anyone living in a capitalist society, just at different levels.

There is a moral issue in how much we spend on audio or any consumption although most of people in a capitalist society are standing in the other side of the line. It may be that the issue is metaphysical to the degree that it hardly fits the scope of this forum, regradless of where you stand. At any rate, let alone moral implications, there is one more thing to think about -- namely opportunity cost. If the opportunity cost of that 75K is minimal for you, you can go ahead and spend it however you desire within the boundary of capitalitic ethos, which is what the capitalism is about. If you are spending without that consideration (i.e., while not being so affluent), I think you will have a dilemma there. For instance, a question can be raised with respect to how much in proportion you allow for yourself with other members of the family. I came to a conclusion that 5K to 7K is adequate for my home economy. Of course, as my net wealth grows, I might upgrade my system. But, I probably won't because besides the fact that I have hobbies other than audio that require money in, the price differential is hard to justify the improvement. Of course, that is a subjective assessment. For those who are affluent enough to consider 75K "not much," the improvement may be well appreciated even when the opportunity cost is taken into consideration. On the other hand, I feel that people are actually doing themselves a favor by refusing to buy super expensive gears -- Rolex or whatever -- in the long run. Let me put it this way, if everyone refuses to buy Rolex or Ferrari on the issue of price, do you think if the companies will go out of business or come back with more palpable pricing? Their modus operandi is to maximize profits. By creating a market segment filled with status symbols with proper quality and therefore product differentiation, they are maximizing their profits by selling less at higher price. Not because they will lose money by selling more at lower price. Since I am a quasi to pseudo audiophile, I much prefer to boycott 15K monoblocks, for instance, even when I may be able to afford it. A simple choice to protect and enhance my own interests to enjoy better gears at lower price in the long term. Of course, the aura of status or whatever may well be gone since the premium for the aura is removed by then -- well, at least for Rolex. I have no problem with those who can afford them. However, if the trend reported is true that the number of diehard audiophiles among middle class has been declining, I am confident that many high end companies will revise the current business model in terms of price, at least partially. Because some, though less than before, profits are better than none by abandoning the business altogether. Why shouldn't they evolve when everybody else has to? But, I am pretty darn sure that I am stuck with my gears since that won't happen in my life time. For those gears are specifically marketed to people in a gated community, many of whom are well groomed by the industry as well (that is, no consumer protection by counterbalancing the power of suppliers with most consumer audiophile magazines being self-congratulatory with the manufacturers, let alone minimal criticism from consumers). So, some of you need not bless me to keep my current gears to the grave -- thanks for the thought, though. At the same time, my simplistic argument will not be met with sympathy; after all, I am talking to audiophiles. And, who knows, I may join the Force of Dark Side. By the way, the nature of business environment for the high end audio industry can be identified as monopolistic competition (not true competition); in other words, they thrive on product differentiation to different sonic taste, which is why we have so many functionally similar yet sonically different gears in the market. So, you need not worry about less diversity when the industry business model changes, since they can make more profits by being diverse before and after. Gentlemen (and ladies), get your eggs ready... P.S. I totally agree with those who think one can get a very reasonably good system with 7K...