Are HT speakers best for primary audio listening or not?

@Audio Doctor NJ; Dave owner chief designer > high power handling, wide dispersion, low distortion, tonally accurate,wide dynamic range.


Blindjim > sounds to me like the same parameters one would seek for music only speakers.

As you point towards what characteristics HT speakers should possess, you fail to show the actual disparity with music only speakers and how their feature set would contrast, exceed, or fall short.

How IYO, would they differ?
= = = =

@phusis > my system is a music ditto first and foremost, but as it turns out this makes it an excellent fit as an HT setup as well,

Blindjim > apparently we agree on how anyone can address HT & music.

I could have simply copied and pasted your latter remarks as I addressed the ‘Dr.’ above, which state your concurrence with the speaker . fingerprints he outlined for ht usage.
= = = =

It seems regardless the application, HT or music, ‘perfect’ is by no means what most of us are employing in our homes, by and large. Despite the specified qualities of which ever speaker, how it is integrated into whatever affair, will be the true determining factor.

A major point has been ignored here so far is the media aimed at a theater environment. By current standards, Blue Ray discs offer much higher definition audio in the film’s soundtrack, allowing for an increased quality in the sound (s), over standard 16/44.1KHz CD quality. analog devotees claim still today, they approach or exceed the HD audio of Blue Ray with a competent and quite capable turn table setup.

Most DVDs afford higher sampling rates which as well equate to a perceived ‘easier’ take on the presented audio.

As such, I’m getting the reinforcement that user preffs and possibly one’s home environment, or budget, dictates the end result far more often than not. Such has always been my circumstance.

We are doing what we can with what we have in each respective area, music only or HT. often these are synonomous..

However, if the upstream gear creating the signal, and supplying it to the speakers are quality components and as well, the peripherals are intended for pure music listening sessions, it won’t matter who or what has ‘tagged’ a particular speaker to one purpose or another. Music first, or theater operation.

Referring to the aforementioned set of HT speaker attributes which correlate to music first speakers as well, I’m inclined to believe what sits in the signal chain ahead of the speakers, and how the room is addressed matter as much if not more than the speakers own traits, all things considered.

@blindjim

...
QUESTION:

What is the argument for or against HT speakers as primary 2 ch audio listening speakers.

Is there a decided separation in speaker land lately between HT speakers and stereo or primary music only speakers??
...

This applies to my own setup and use rather fittingly; I’ve used my 2-channel system as an HT ditto for some years now (with a 127" fixed frame screen and projector), and these last 2 years have used highly sensitive all-horn main speakers + a sealed 16" sub (for the last 7 months). For the record I’ve never used surround sound, and by all accounts I’m never going to.

So, my system is a music ditto first and foremost, but as it turns out this makes it an excellent fit as an HT setup as well, the only differentiating factor being running the sub 5 dB’s hotter in "HT-mode." Some may conclude then that my music reproduction taste caters to the "technicolor" imprinting mentioned earlier, signifying a perhaps tasteful(?) coloration that lends itself less successfully - in the ears of some, at least - to music, and more to the advantage of movies and their more, say, "spicy" sound. I’d rather invert it, and claim the suitable HT-sound (of my liking) to emulate more closely a monitor sound of sorts, whereas the hifi-ideal is a typically more laid-back and character-laden presentation. Controversial, perhaps?

If anything I find the visual term to articulate HT-sound (and hence my music-sound ideal) more aptly is CinemaScope (or better yet, as a concept: IMAX), as in a more enveloping and encompassing experience, and hereby not least more visceral, tactile and emotional. As such I can only agree with the sentiments described by others in this thread on the HT-traits - i.e.: the need for high sensitivity, ease of reproduction, controlled dispersion, timbral accuracy, low distortion etc. - but to me these aspects translates fittingly and equally well into music reproduction.

The use of a sub is sometimes a controversial matter as well as it relates to music(al) reproduction (i.e.: the problem with proper integration), and not least when the sub used has any inkling towards HT-use, oftentimes simply by virtue of being a large and powerful sub - a tendency I believe to rest more heavily in how these subs are dialed-in in many "cinephile" milieus than their less hot, more versatile qualities. And let’s face it; for some audiophiles whatever approaches live levels both in volume and air-displacement impact is either "crazy" or something better suited for PA use or similarly. Ultimately I also find a sub indispensable in a HT setup, but dialed-in suitably is equally important reproducing music.

Twoleftears, 

Wrong completely wrong, I am a trainded Theater Designer and there is no special voicing for a Home Theater speaker, they are not brighter or duller than a Music Speaker.

As Shadorne said ATC make excellent Home Theater Speakers so do KEF it comes down to these factors:

1: Power Handling and efficiency.  A good Theater speaker has the ability to play loud so efficiency and power handling are inportant. 

2: Controlled Dispersion, you want to have a wide Horizontal dispersion and Limited Vertical dispersion so not to bounce sound off of the ceiling, the D'Appolito configuration was designed to do just this.

3: Timberally accurate a good Theater speaker will sound as accurate as possible with an even frequency response.

4: Dynamic capabilities: A good Theater speaker can track highly dynamic passages without distortion.

One of the biggest difference is the concept of imaging which is not really important in a Theater design but very important in a Music System. 

So when you place speakers against a wall you are not going to get the kind of depth of field in image that will happen when you  do so, so in reality that is one of the biggest differences between the world of Theater and Music systems.

Also a Theater room is going to have much greater damping to control reflections then a pure two channel Music Room.

Check out our Theater we built for DIY Network Rev Run's Rennovation

https://www.flickr.com/photos/58319891@N08/albums/72157650239108910

https://www.flickr.com/photos/58319891@N08/albums/72157650233548529

You will notice that we use KEF THX speakers which hit all the criteria required for a good Theater, high power handling, wide dispersion, low distortion, tonally accurate,wide dynamic range.

Dave owner chief designer
Audio Doctor NJ

@Mikhaelkuz> Good luck and let audiophile gods be with you!

  Blindjim > thanks. Hopefully a greater power than all combined will be with me. And, us all. In fact, I’m fairly sure that’s going on already.

@blindjim I totaly get it.
" I’m simply shooting at birds a bit higher on the tree in my next system.." I wish I can say the same, but upcoming retirement and money flow issues clipped my wings.
Good luck and let audiophile gods be with you!

@shadorne
Thanks man. Your input is always well received … thanks.

Granted sound is sound.

I’ve got a sincere bias here apparently, as I’m feeling HT speakers deliver ‘sound’ differently than dedicated music only loudspeakers should as I’ve said above.

EX. A warm, slightly romantic sounding loudspeaker would and does work in a lot of musical genres. In HT scenarios? Not quite so well. Same thing can be said for limited range speakers. For music, likely quite acceptable. HT? this just won’t do. Additional support for the bottom octaves MUST be added if the film’s audio is to be experienced as much as its video involvement.

In fact, or IME, subs are a MUST for HT. not an optional accessory.

IMHO BW makes a very lengthy array of HT qualified speakers. Indeed, pretty much all of them can do double duty with video and audio which adds to their popularity perhaps. BTW I loved the look of the previous Nautilus series 802, 801s, and a bit of the 800s. it just wasn’t to be.


.
@mikhaelkuz
Thanks man.
I’m almost positive what you are experiencing with a covey of tritons is entertaining.

I’m simply shooting at birds a bit higher on the tree in my next system..

If I were to arrange an HT deal in addition to purely audio, I’d take a good look at Tritons.

@ Blindjim > I agree that aesthetics of those speakers are not for everyone, and even suggested (to no avail) that Golden Ear can produce "socks" of different colors other then "all black".
But they passed WAF, they kind of matching some of our other stuff, their surround and height speakers are top notch and blended well, and so on ))) 

ATC are used in movie as much as in two channel music production. The requirements are the same - just more speakers. There is no difference - it is all sound: realism and accuracy are just as important in HT.

@Mattmiller > Helicopters and Explosions are easy! Music is not.

Blindjim > Really? IMO movie music lives on the extremes of the bandwidth more than its mids. A substantial ability to reproduce those bottom octaves is an imperitive for HT. not so much for music. Similarly on the upper end. Shattering glass and other material noises movies express there are usually not in many or at all of the albums I listen to..

However, your input is sincerely appreciated.

= = = =

@mikhaelkuz > I just do not have space and resources for a separate music room, and also do not want 2 pairs of main speakers in my room -

Blindjim > Agreed. I feel you.

I will or would, set up a mini HT in my bedroom or office for film, though the aspect of total immersion into all the facets of HT are rapidly vanishing for me.

I hope going forward with a probable move in the mix, a home whose ssize can support losing a room purely for HT will occur. Still, it would be done even then on a fairly modest theme. Projector, monitors, subs, HT Proc and class D amps. Likely no 3D, or beyond 5.1 or 7.2, room size permitting.

It could be the least used room in the house, at least by me.
Thanks for the insight. I’ve heard of the speakers you have. I feel their esthetic does not have that much appeal for my purposes in either context, pure music, or purely HT.

but then, who knows what the future holds? I only know who holds it.

My Golden Ear Triton 1 perfectly good for double duty. In stereo they are very fine, musical speakers, in HT they dynamic and powerful, with powered subwoofers (with separate sub inputs) build in,
I just do not have space and resources for a separate music room, and also do not want 2 pairs of main speakers in my room - thing will look like a store and definitely will not pass WAF.
I also listen quite a bit to surround music (new Steven Wilson remixes and some older stuff are addicted), which farther blurs HT-stereo divide.
Perhaps I do not listen movies at 110 db to appreciate the difference, I doubt I am crossing 95-100db threshold.

Helicopters and Explosions are easy! Music is not.



Matt M

@Audiotroy Dave
Thanks much.

I’m gonna go with either works fine IF the upstream setup & room is correct for the intended application.

In this case the driving notion is to avoid critical HT speakers for purely 2 ch musical sessions as the tweaks beyond merely the amp could be varied, numerous involved and sacrifices too great.

There’s no sense in trying to get blood out of a turnip. Beets? Maybe. Turnips, nope.

Guys I am a trained Home Theater designer, so here is the answer for you question based on the criteria that we use for selecting Theater speakers.

The reality is that a music speaker may make a good Home Theater speaker if it meets the requirements, while Home Theater speakers usually do not tickle the audiophile sensibilities the same way.

To build a real home Theater system your speakers need the following:

1: High power handling with low distortion
2: The ability to play to 110-120db continuous spl.
3: A wide well defined dispersion of all frequencies with limited vertical dispersion
4: Timberally accurate
5: Has matching center and rear speakers

vs: 

A high end loudspeaker

1: Power handling isn't necessarily an issue
2: Maximum SPL isn't usually an issue
3: Dispersion may be not limited in anyway ie Diapoles or Omnis
4: Speaker may or not be timberally accurate
5: May not have matching centers and rears

Dave owner
Audio Doctor NJ

@blindjim - does "HT" mean 'home theatre'? I took it from there....

@whart > yes. HT does mean home Theater. Of course.
Its OK. somehow my intent was ignored or confused. Your input was or is, appreciated. Sincerely. Thanks.

= == =
To illuminate further….

I’ve noticed reading articles on stereo, music specific speakers, some on my own little list, being described as great HT tuypes.

This worries me as I’ve stated and restated now.

Given also what people have told me personally on a couple speakers I like or thought I’d like are more prone to accuracy than musical fidelity, I’m rethinking my choices.

As well, I’m certainly rethinking what the writer’s audio preffs are too despite what is being written in their reviews.

Sure, setup is a very big deal. Some setups included really expensive gear and others did not. Little was mentioned of how long the speakers were run in in some auditions which were said as lack luster events.

I hesitate to say what where and whom as it was all provided me in confidence. However I feel we have similar preffs on sonics and presentations.

So, the concern or question remains, shouldn’t a stereo music only speaker be just that, and not have a role in another play at the same time, ie. HT?

@blindjim - does "HT" mean 'home theatre'? I took it from there....

@linnlingo
OK…. thanks much. Really.

@whart
Sorry man, I’m pretty sure you missed my point. My aim is to acquire speakers strickly for music listening.

I’m cluless as to how this got mixed up. I’m quite sorry about that.

For sake of argument, just figure the amp and room are more than adequate for the speakers, regardless the selections.


@erik_squires > Just in general, kind of depends on how neutral a speaker you like for music, which I need to define for this conversation:
Neutral: Plays many types of music equally well.

Blindjim > I sure hope they will play anything as my musical preffs are fairly wide ranging, apart from my usual defaults of Blues, R&B, Big band jazz, jazz, folk, country, and bluegrass. .

As well, the speakers I am interested in presently as specifically music listening units being reviewed were not being done by an HT reviewer, per se, and not in an HT magazine, save for one of them.

A couple of the one’s I’ve had on my short list get accolades from reviewers that they would be will suited to a high end home theater arrangement.

Again, such is not the goal.   It’s the sheer mention of the reviewer that these two could easily be used in HT, and I feel it was meant in addition to stereo listening duties. Again, not my plan, but it is that statement which has my radar up.

I tend to see HT speakers as well extended, more stark and edgy sounding bordering more on absolute neutrality or sheer transparency across its badwidth and leaning heavily on accuracy more than naturalness, so non musical sonics within film can be more vividly announced. . shell casings hitting the floor or roads. Explosions. Weird oscillator generated stuff spaceships, lasers, etc.

Gigantic critters fighting over who will take the trash out or possess the remote control.

Driving rains, earthquakes. Volcanoes.

Mainly I see HT units as having a far greater need to deliver the leading edge info so speed is an absolute prerequisite even if tonal aplomb is not as well mannered.

In other words, a critical, analytical presentation serves HT far better than it does music IMHO>

And it is this note that concerns me when I hear it applied to what would normally be seem as go to musical or primary 2 ch listening speakers in a review.

I believe both the VA Listz and Musics, KEF Blades were mentioned as well suited for HT and I think Magico was too but not sure on that last note.

The only written account on devore Gibbon tens made me come away with an idea even these speakers would be better suited to film than music.

I know one review on the Paradigm 3fs was done by an actual dedicated HT mag. But the Magico, and 3F, loudspeakers are near the bottom of my list as outside or remote choices.

Accounts from a friend on his perception of the Gibbon X, and a late review on the Para 5F also bade me shudder to closely consider them for music use only, which is the path I am on.

I get it, setup is everything. But it sure takes a lot to get wet and engaging out of dry and analytical.

Does that help any?

I have Aerial speakers for surround and music. Excellent for both formats.

Hi Jim,

Just in general, kind of depends on how neutral a speaker you like for music, which I need to define for this conversation:

Neutral: Plays many types of music equally well.

Those types of speakers do really well with HT. However, if you like 80s R&R a lot, and buy speakers based on playing that loud the same speakers are probably not going to do quite as well in HT.

However, lets put this into perspective. It doesn't all have to be perfect. You won't live longer or less if you buy speakers better for Jazz than HT. :)

Best,


E

@blindjim-- I think you have to be more specific about the speaker, amplifier(s) and your room. For some years, I ran a large home theatre, using some big Snells in a D’Appolito configuration, with multiple basic amps from ARC. At the time, I was using Crosby Quads as my main two channel speaker, and did not want to subject them to the pounding that a HT system can impose at high dbs.
The size of the room and screen may also involve a spread between the L+R that aren’t conducive to stereo imaging-- (unless you are confining your music listening to 5.1 type mixes).
There’s also the complication of systems- I know some folks can get double duty from a HT and stereo system, but I didn’t want a bunch of additional electronics connected to what amounted to a simple, vinyl-only stereo, so I kept the systems entirely separate (even though both, over the years, as they evolved, were in the same room). This requires some intelligent use of the space, and room treatment, since the projection screen, unless a motorized drop down (which I used in an earlier HT system) is a highly reflective surface for acoustic purposes.
Generally, I would think some modern speakers would be well suited for HT use, such a larger horns, or bigger dynamic speakers.
There’s also the matter of how the subwoofers are crossed over for theatre v. music. I suppose if they are run through a processor that allows you to change the crossover point for different types of listening that solves one problem, but potentially adds another- I wouldn’t want to run my stereo through a pre-pro meant for home theatre. I gather that’s why there is a by-pass on many set-ups, but I avoided those complications by keeping the systems separate.