Anyone familiar with Ikeda 9 series (cantileverless kind) MC cartridges?


Impressed by the series FR-7 kinds , more in particular the FR-7 fz, I wanted to try some of the

9 C(?) kinds. I was able to buy the 9 C, mk2 but was not able to find much info about other

versions.  There are later versions so I am interested in their possible  ''added values''.

128x128nandric
@nandric 

The bearings in the FR64S used for horizontal motion of the arm are conventional roller bearings, purchaseable off the shelf to any spec. - eg Abec 7,9 etc

The issue most folk ignore is that the load on the roller bearings used for horizontal motion of the arm is sideways. If you can picture the roller bearings with a pipe on the inside and a larger pipe on the outside, one pipe spins within another. 

In the tonearm application, the load is 90 degrees to the direction that the bearings are actually designed for. In other words the weight of the tonearm is pushing down on the roller bearing assembly sideways.

So over time wear is more likely as seen in the Syntax video.

Wear in the vertical motion bearings is less likely becuase they are used in a correct orientation.

If you look at the Kuzma 4Point the horizontal motion is achieved by using a unipivot single point ( as regards load ), instead of roller bearings incorrectly used. It is a much better system.

This misuse of roller bearings for horizontal motion in tonearms occurs  in most tonearms, eg SME etc.

I would never use grease or oil on a precision roller bearing.

You were quite correct with regard to Ikeda preferring iron bearings, he regarded jewelled bearings ( synthetic jewels in most instances ) to be brittle sounding with his preferred low compliance cartridges.

With regard to the grease used on the vertical tracking force spring, sure using the right viscosity is probably important. Personally I have swiss laboratory grade grease used for watches/clocks on my shelf, dont use it. There are better.

If one wanted to live dangerously then one would remove the spring completely from the FR64 and disable the dynamic vtf adjuster and just use static balance. This would remove resonances from the FR64 inherent in the spring assembly and probably improve the sound - I have done this with other arms and heard improvements. The only caveat is that this may not be optimal for very some low compliance cartridges.

Both Jonathan Carr and I use a combination of static and dynamic balnce on the FR64. In my case I believe it reduces the resonance in the spring mechanism by having a small amount of dynamic balance, rather than any argument about static versus dynamic balance in setting vertical tracking force.




Thanks Dover, Because of similarity with Decca I was not able
to see direct connection with the stylus by Ikeda Rex. My
simple mind assumed that this ''tieback wire'' was the ground.
Left and Right channels can be easily seen on your ''U shaped
 pipe'' so, one can ask, where is the ground ? (grin). 
The wonder greas you can enjoy by our newest improvement
or , as Raul would say, ''refurbishing'' of FR-64/66 . Curious btw
that you missed such important ''invention''. 


@nandric 
Have a look at the picture under more details
http://soundgate.net/product/MjM0.highend

The tieback string is the string from the stylus mounting point to the back of the cartridge. Is that "the wire" you are asking about ?

The hoop is the U shaped pipe.
The stylus is mounted at the bottom of the U shaped pipe ( hoop ).

The purpose of the tieback string is to prevent the record ripping the "hoop" out when playing a record.

Where is your question on wonder grease ??
Dear Dover, My English teacher deed not respond to my
request to explain the expression  ''hoop'' which you used
to explain the working of the ''tie back string'' by Ikeda Rex.
You also deed not react to my question as in case of
''wonder grease from Swiss watchmakers'' which seems
to work like ''holy water'' from (Dutch) New Zeeland.
I assume you don't like disputes? But I am a lawyer
and the question then would be how  they would earn
 their living without disputs? 
I hope you will be so kind to address both questions. 


Hi tomic, Because of , say, postfix ''IC'' in your name I assume
that your are ''some kind'' of compatriote to me. But I do hope
that you are not Croatian(?). You should write in  Serbo-Croatian
because I don't understand your comment ''Lovely''. 
Dear Dover, My Gosh, after the most eloquent member in our forum
I get post from the ''best informed member in our forurm''. I think
I should ask my English teacher Lew what ''hoop'' means. My
''forum brother'' Don owns Decca and try the ''explanation'' by
comparision. But ''his wire'' is not ''my wire'' while the comparison
is some kind of insult to my Ikeda REX (grin). 
@nandric 

Are you referring to the "tie back" string from just above the stylus to the rear of the cartridge that is required to stop the vertical cantilever ( Decca ) and vertical hoop ( Ikeda ) being ripped out when playing records ?
Each MC cart has the so called ''tension wire'' which connect
''moving parts'' with the generator. The wire is fastened to
the ''joint pipe'' (aluminum tube) in which front side cantilever
is glued and back side on wich coil is fastened. The tension
wire ''center'' the cantilever and press the coil against the
 damper. By Decca and Ikeda's cantileverless carts there is
also a kind of wire from the stylus to the generator but which
function is not clear to me. My assumption for Ikeda is ''ground
 wire''.  Does anybody ''knows better''? 

Hi Lew, I consider your welcome as an compliment from the most
eloquent member in our forum.
Thanks my Slavic brother but I would prefer even Russian
translation (grin). 
As a young boy I was most impressed by the writer Erich Maria
Remarque. He wrote about soldiers and their willingeness to
die for each other. I agreed in principe. The book in question
was ''Im Westen nichts neues'' (Nothing new in the West).
I will borow the title and extend to known universe: ''nothing
new about carts except the price''. Following edgewear advice
I also searched for the ''good old kinds''. My newest  discoveries
are Kiseki Agaat (the ''stone kinds'') and the latest Black wood.
The Black wood was meant as ''poor man'' Lapis Lazuli.
But the only difference is the body (stone versus wood) and
cantilever (diamond versus boron). To me both belong in the
same ''category' as FR-7 fz and Ikeda Rex ( the cantileverless kind). 

@saburo , His name is Andy and his firm ''needleclinic@gmail.com''

As far as I know he can change the stylus for other issues you

should contact him.

No dear chakster I forget coma after ''resonators''  then even

silver cables would be included.

Dear chakster, Your ''argument'' also apply for tonearms, amps,

pre-amps, phono-pres , speakers and even ''resonators''.

However all of those have their own forums (grin). BTW I hope

syntax will first answer MY question.

@nandric 

Dear chakster, MY THREAD is not meant for your obsession with this totally unknow Luxman TT. Even an blind person can see that this thread is about cartridges not TT's (grin).

Totally unknown? Maybe unknown to you, but @syntax link displayed Luxman platter with rare Ikeda cartridge and FR-64s tonearm i believe? You canrtridge can play music without cantilever, but not without turntable, so we are not off topic here. 

Dear Lew, What a waste of opportunity. You offered to me to buy for me those titanium screws while I am looking for Ikeda 9 REX for a long time. I should ask for Ikeda instead of those screws. I would of course transfer $2 000 to you in advance in order not to compromise our friendship . Do you have the intention to visit your son also next year(grin)?

During my recent visit to Tokyo, I saw at least seven or eight different Ikeda cartridges for sale as new at Yodibashi camera, the massive supermarket for electronics in the Akihabara section of Tokyo. I had heard of none of these cartridges before (except in posts by nandric), and now I am reading about them again on this thread. They were all in the $2000 and up price range, by the way.

Dear chakster, MY THREAD is not meant for your obsession

with this totally unknow Luxman TT. Even an blind person can

see that this thread is about cartridges not TT's (grin).

Saburo, I need to check for you by my comrade Don (Griffiths)

but he informed me that ''Needle clinic'' (?) can fix those

9 series cartridges. Anyway this retipper can provide a new

stylus. Considering the fact(?) that all those ''members'' of

the series have the same construction your ''Rowland'' sample

should be ''the same''.


Dear syntax, I am sure you tried many but what about this ''9

series''? Your sample looks certainly ''exotic''  but deed it

sound as such? You don't need to spare your Serbian friend

if you have some critical remarks; I am used to (grin).

Post removed 
@nandric 
Well, extraordinary tastes maybe, but alas not extraordinary means. Which has prompted me to investigate in those 'old' designs that are no longer 'relevant' vis à vis the current 'breakthroughs' in high end cartridge design. Or so the reviewers want us to believe. They can write all they want, but I have the distinct impression that these current 'top' MC's, sold at increasingly 'silly prices', are not 'vastly superior' to some of these 'oldies'. This opinion will surely be   dismissed as 'a bit of nostalgia for the old folks', but I suspect this monetary trend has nothing to do with sonic superiority, it's just superior snobbery. You see it everywhere, so why not in audio?

Recently we reached a new 'low' with the 100th Anniversary model from Ortofon (which used to be a company of restraint and moderation in pricing) at >$10k. Let's all join the birthday 'party'! At about the same time Transfiguration announced a new Proteus with diamond cantilever with a $6000 price hike over the regular Proteus (around $4k). This 'audiofool market' is economically insignificant, but otherwise they would send in the FBI to investigate illegal pricing arrangements. 

It's quite obscene but sort of amusing as well. I guess it's a matter of time before a $20k cartridge will 'hit' the streets... Which brand will have the audacity to go first? Or will they go 'all together now'? And what will be their sales pitches? I can hardly wait.

In the meantime I enjoy travelling through the 'Land of Old MC's', which seems to carry the same flag as the 'Land of the Rising Sun'. Some of my best discoveries so far:
- the Ikeda designed FR-7 family, which have been much discussed here and are utterly wonderful. This includes the marvelous MC-702, which was the last 'member' of this family, albeit with a different name.
- the Ikeda designed original 9 series, or the similar (?) ones issued by Jeff Rowland and Cello. More obscure and more temperamental in use, but equally musical.
- the Takeda designed Miyabi's or similar (?) ones issued by Mark Levinson, Cello, Red Rose and Krell. One of those carts that makes you forget you're listening to electro-acoustic devices and not musical instruments.
- the Matsudeira designed Entré EC-30 and Audiocraft AC-03. Both fantastic systems and I would really like to know how these compare with the current Matsudeira designed My Sonic Labs or Air Tights systems. Anyone?

I'm sure there's plenty more treasures to dig up in that mysterious ol' place. Who wants to share their own discoveries?


Thanks dear edgewear , While I considered this 9 C kinds

as ''exotic'' among the MC kinds I am actually stunned by the

lack of interest by the so called '' connoisseurs''. We see many

MC carts for +10 K prices while those ''precious'' can be get

for ''only'' about $2000. So, ''obviously'', you , my beloved

ddriveman and I have extraordinary tastes (grin).

I did some more searching on the web and found that vinyl engine lists no fewer than 14 different 'variations' on the cantilever-less 'theme'. 

In alphabetic order: 9B, than 9C, 9C II, 9C III, 9C IV and 9C V, 9CU, 9EM, 9EM PL, 9 Musa, 9 Omega, 9R, 9 Rex and 9 Supremo. In some cases prices are mentioned and the 9B was the cheapest (and probably earliest) at $495 and the 9 Musa the dearest (and possibly latest) at $3440. Unfortunately no release dates are provided.
Another source suggests that the 9 Supremo at $2950 was the last one, discontinued in 2014. VTF indeed ranged from 1,5 gram (Omega, Rex and Supremo) to 2,5 gram (9EM, 9EM PL and 9R).

This does draw a more 'complete' picture of the entire 'family', but unfortunately doesn't answer the questions which 'family member' was the most talented,  Ikeda's 'prodigal son'......

So input from anyone who actually compared some of these would still be most welcome.


Dear ddriveman, The nomenclature of the most cartridges make

no sense. Think of AT and ZYX kinds. The FR-7 series is not

simple but series 9 is curious. Takeda san with his Miyabi

demonstrated that ''simple is better''. If my assumption that

the ''latest is the best'' is correct than 9 MUSA is the one to

look for. But I hope that this ''variant'' is without headshell.  

Thanks for putting  them in the right order.  We should start

a thread about MC kinds like Rauls MM thread (grin).

I do miss J. Carr's contributions . He could probably answer

our questions.

AFAIK, the Ikeda 9 started with the 9C series (From Mk1 to Mk 3) then moved to 9R and then 9REX came and then 9MUSA.
Dear Nandric,

I meant ’different versions’ of the 9 series, assuming Mr. Ikeda administered equal treatment to ’each member’ of his family.

But I have always wondered why there’s such a wide range of recommended VTF within this ’family’ (ranging from 1,5 to 2,5 grams) when they supposedly all share the same construction.

When I inspect the Rex up close it looks like the stylus is glued to a brace or bridge (for want of a better term) around which the coils seem to be wound. There’s no visible suspension (but that may be hidden from sight) and obviously no cantilever, so I don’t understand where any compliance could be derived from. Sorry for my hopeless description.

The available information on the 9 series is very limited and I do not know which was the last and/or best, although I do remember reading somewhere that the 9 Musa (the one with the integrated wooden headshell) was indeed the final version before Ikeda the man retired and Ikeda the company returned to more conventional cartridges. I don’t know if Ikeda the man was still responsible for the design of the current 9 series, or if these belong to someone else’s ’family’ with the same name.....

I’m sure you will have noticed by now that I do not know any more than you do. So I share your hope that other ’members’ of this forum can shed some more light on the ’family history’ of these carts and on their sonic ’pecking order’.




Hi edgewear, Do you mean by your first sentence different

versions of the 9 series or different treatment of ''each member''

of the family? I am searching for the  9 REX for a long time but

in hope to get a better ''rider'' than my 9C, 2. Your denial of

even my ''very low compliance'' does not look very promising.

I don't understand difference in VTF without compliance .

Is the thought that the last version is the best wrong?

If this make sense than the question is which one is the

latest? (grin). My both FR-64 are adjusted according to Bearwald

so I can't use those with headshell. BTW I don't like any

Ikeda headshell.  Deed you ever ty some other version?

It seems there was a wide range of different requirements for each member of the original Ikeda 9 family. I own Ikeda 9 Rex, but I'm not sure if this is the R version ddriveman is referring to.

The Rex supposedly was one of the top models in the range and according to the spec sheet the recommended VTF is 1.5 gram. I prefer it slightly higher at 1.75 gram, where tracking capability does seem to improve a little. But more importantly bass notes go deeper, are more solid and more tuneful. The soundstage also seems to blow up like a balloon, both in width and depth. A remarkable effect!

Calling it low compliance is an optimistic description, it's actually more like a no compliance cart. So alignment and SRA really need to be spot on. That's impossible to accomplish visually, so you just have to trust your ears. Feickert+ software (or something similar) would probably be very helpful here. I don't have access to it, so patience and a little luck are my only companions.

You will also need to limit yourself to perfectly flat discs, or it will jump all over the place. Definitely not a cart for everyday use, but when serendipity is in the house, there is nothing quite like it.


Thanks dear ddriveman, My only problem with 9C,mk 2 is the

(very) low compliance. I can hardly  get 50 microns ''pure''

with tracking capability test records. Speculating or rather deducing

from VTF 2 g by R versions in comparison with 2.5 g for my 9C,2

I assume that R versions have higher compliance (?).

BTW I recently purchased Ikeda 9 TT with aluminum cantilever.

Nice but not equal to the cantileverless kinds.

There is Ikeda 9C Mk3. I have this. Very nice.
After this, Ikeda started calling them 9R. And started making them as integrated headshell carts. The final one was called 9R MUSA in a wooden body integrated headshell.
The new Ikeda compnay is using the 9R model number but all of these have cantilevers.