@hilde45 I thought you were spot on. You did not violate any Agon policies. I guess we know who had it taken down and I thought he had thicker skin than that!
Any good video sites out there?
So, my post about the clickbait nature of some youtube video sites was removed.
I was not trolling. I was not baiting.
Let's think about this for a moment. This is a hobby that pays attention to reviews. They drive sales, conversations, and how we perceive audio itself.
Therefore, it's relevant to an audio hobbyist site to discuss the kinds of reviews out there. A good, informative review can guide members toward new ways of evaluating audio and help them make more informed decisions. On the other hand, review sites which are inaccurate or even just hyperbolic in their reviews or in their titles also have an impact on how seriously we can take that site. In the case of YouTube, some members here think that it is YouTube itself that is at fault.
So, this is a valid topic for an audio forum. I went to a site -- which shall remain nameless because critique is not allowed, I guess -- which is consistently saying that the latest review is the "best ever" or "the most ultimate XYZ ever" etc. This is the kind of hyperbole which, I am arguing, has a negative effect on other, less manic sites -- which I will not name, either -- the ones not trying to work the algorithms to garner clicks.
The post I made was a claim with evidence -- evidence supporting the claim that there was a hyperbolic quality to the site. That's all I did.
And then my post was taken down.
Let's analyze what has just happened.
Violating post policies means posting "prohibited content."
The rules are as follows:
You will not submit content that is copyrighted or subject to third party proprietary rights, including privacy, publicity, trade secret, etc., unless you are the owner of such rights or have the appropriate permission from their rightful owner to specifically submit such content.
You will not post information that is malicious, false or inaccurate.
You will not post content that is sexually expicit.
You will not post content that is abusive or defames another member of The Service.
Those of you who read my post will realize that I did none of these things. What I did was call attention to a youtube site that -- I am claiming, with evidence -- tends toward hyperbole in their titles.
If this post gets taken down, then I think only one conclusion can be drawn about what has happened to "moderation" here.
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@rsf507 Thanks. I try to be polite but that doesn't mean I have to only compliment things. No pain, no gain, as the weightlifters say. Sometimes the people we think are big and thick skinned are the first ones calling the hall monitor. That said, I don't actually know who called the hall monitor. |
Your summary of the rules is incomplete. You might want to check A’gons Terms of Use, which include: "Audiogon is a business site; all members are responsible for maintaining a professional and cordial demeanor on and off the site including our forums. We will not tolerate the use of hostile, offensive, profane or vulgar language ... All Audiogon members are expected to conduct themselves in an honest and civil manner. Members are allowed to contact each other through our site, and agree to communicate in a mature and polite manner." |
This is a standard procedure where double standards exist. It happens all the time. Fact checkers often use intellectual acrobatics with the language to disqualify a story. Happens all the time. this time your ox got gored. Ox’s get gored every day. But it really hits home when its your ox. That’s the way it is with most people. It’s not that they haven’t seen other’s oxen gored. its that they didn’t feel any pain or not enough to care. But don’t worry. truth is a stubborn thing and has a way of emerging again, kinda like the Delaware Laptop from Hell owned by the child of a prominent politician. It too was taken down when it was first posted by the NY Post |
@cleeds Yeah, I read those. I'm not seeing how I'm in violation at all. @artemus_5 I hear you. My point was not just that my ox got gored -- though, you're right, it DOES sting more -- but that I raised a topic worthy of debate for this community of hobbyists. If I can take one thing away from @cleeds point, it's that "this is a business site." I suppose that criticism of businesses -- which the YouTube channel is one, clearly -- is not tolerated. This seems short-sighted because businesses get better with competition, don't they? |
You will get no disagreement from me. I agree with you. I also agree that a business has a right to run their business as they believe is right. IOW, free speech does not apply to a business. I was not trying to make light of your feeling offended. But I was trying to point out that this happens daily in our world where free speech is supposed to exist. It makes mo difference if it is "a topic worthy of debate". The powers that be have set certain things off limits. One group of people get their ox gored on a daily basis. The other has their ox protected. Take the Laptop,for example. One side says it first and are mocked, ridiculed and silenced. 1 1/2 yrs later the side of the powers that be, can say it when THEY deem it necessary. And everything is fine. One sides ox is dead...the other sides ox lives and flourishes, even though it did the same thing. THIS is an example of the double standard I am spoke of |
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@hilde45 do you still have what you initially posted? If you send to me would like to try and repost again. It, was not, IMHO wrong, inaccurate or against Agon policy. |
The OP question is valid and interesting... Most reviewers even honest one are sellers... The Youtube agon reviewer the OP cited is probably honest, but he sells his "expertise" in agon and youtube... about ultra high end gear .... Then using hyperboles is, if not legitimate, easy to understand... it is interesting to listen to him because who spoke about 100,000 bucks dac anyaway? No one ... 😊 my dac value was 20 bucks...Its real value is 500 bucks... i am lucky yes...
i think the OP is right... This site banned one of my friend. because of the pression of some seller working here probably... It is anything but a free forum for sure, it is a commercial place...
By the way the whole point of my presence here is : "audiophile experience for the poor"...This is the title of my virtual system page 8 years ago... I try to educate people about acoustic as the way to hi-fi, not 100,000 bucks dac...it was my journey to experiment with acoustic... This is why i side with the OP on these questions ....Sellers inform but ONLY to sells more... No sellers ever said that acoustic method means more for sound than upgrade of gear...NEVER.... Save sellers of acoustic panels who anyway sells costly materials not acoustic experiments and acoustic control anyway... Sellers sells... Those who dare to experiment inform without too heavy prejudices.... Anyway sellers put their skin in the game of selling, those who experiment put their skin in the game of sound quality improvement at low cost...
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You must be joking. If you're not, you might want to contact the moderators and have them explain it to you.
Now we know you're joking, because this site is full of criticism of businesses and individuals in the audio world. |
Sorry but here some criticisms are possible for sure but not against all business... It is evident...All business are not equal... Some Business are big contributor to this site.... This is why.... If you critic the wrong one good luck....
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Yes I would IF he said that. Therein is the question. Did he say it? And should we believe a media which says that the city riots in the summer of 2020 were "peaceful" even though there were deaths and $1 Billion worth of damage and theft. One even reported a peaceful march with a raging fire in the background. Can't make this stuff up. |
@cleeds You’re cracking me up -- because I cannot see how you cannot see. Then again, you may just be pulling my leg. Good one, buddy! @facten Hans Beekhuyzen, John Darko, A British Audiophile, Goldensound, Pearl Acoustics, Pints with Ayre, Audio Architekt, are a few. I also get a lot out of the conversations on Audio Excellence, Thomas and Stereo, too. Jay’s Iyagi can be good as can Acoustics Insider. @mahgister We agree on the notion that a hobby is more than the stuff people sell in it. That's why your voice is such a valuable one, here. What seems interesting -- from the standpoint of cultural analysis -- is how *touchy* sellers can be. They dominate the world (in the process of using up the resources and polluting it) and yet if you make one criticism, they get so angry. Why would that be? Maybe, as you surely have said many times, it's because the house of cards falls down very easily when criticisms are made. |
I will only add that for me the buying part of this hobby is a necessary part but secondary one ... The main part is informing ourself... For me acoustic/psycho-acoustic explain our sound/music experience, and invite us to learn how to listen by experiments, electronic engineering does not explain sound experience...And certainly not high-end brand name companies either... Learning how to listen is the hobby...More than upgrading because we are unsatisfied and we dont know why... |
I have held to the idea for a long time that many do not know how to listen. I have also held that in order to get good info, you must ask good questions. I ask a lot of questions due to my curiosity. Then one day I remembered how many answers I get to questions I did not ask. People often attribute to me, things I have never said. Why is that? It is either they can't hear or cannot process the question. The other way is that I had to learn to listen also. Even though I had nice systems I didn't know anything about sound stage or the typical audiophile jargon. |
it is impossible to understand imaging and soundstage without learning to listen WITH SIMPLE acoustic notions and experiments ... I discovered that reading acoustic articles and consulting books..But more importantly by devising acoustic experiments in my room.... Audio threads are focused on brand name gear, the costlier the better 😁 ... This is why people are unable to give to themselves these acoustic experience AT WILL... The gear alone does not create the soundscape, we need to use acoustic... It is more important to invest in a room than to buy 500,000 bucks system... It is possible to create great acoustic even in a living room for sure...But it is more costly because it need to be esthetical... i was lucky enough to have no money for anything else than basic good gear, and i had a room for audio... Then i decided to create my own sonic paradise... I discovered the power of acoustic science which is more transforming than the choice between a Simaudio amplifier or a First watts amplifier for example... Gear is secondary, pick the one your wallet can afford and focus on acoustic... Most people owning a real good acoustic environment upgrade no more... 😁😊
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So, I found out why the thread was removed. Someone complained. They said
All I would say about this is that I was not bashing a member, but rather raising a critique of this channel's tendency to be hyperbolic -- and I gave the evidence. This channel is a business but also a site of journalistic opinion. For some reason it requires special, extra protection. My post was raising for consideration the proliferation of hyperbole in the video opinion realm. Anyone who read that knows that. Why it's possible for a member on our site to call this "bashing" is beyond me, but I guess I didn't count on feelings and sensibilities being wounded so easily. I guess I found out the reason. |
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Many do not understand nuance.They equate all actions as one in the same. Kinda like the man who happens to sees a couple making love and calls 911 to report a rape. It should not be this way. But its a part of the divide and conquer strategy which has been taking place in our society for many years, IMO You have exemplified the very thing I pointed out to @hilde45 Seeing someone else's ox being gored is all fun & games til its your ox which gets gored. I hope you will soon understand that when an ox is purposely gored especially for nefarious reasons, it is an offense to all of us...or it should be |
I think you are right but you underestimate the power of some poster here... Oldyvimec suffer the same fate in a harsher way...He is banned...No recourse... This is commercial forum to favorize selling and buying... Nobody doubt hyperboles qualificatives because everybody use them for his favorite and idolized piece of gear to promote it AS THE ONLY solution... Nobody believe that acoustic and psycho-acoustic outway in improvement MOST upgrades and nobody believe that superioir hifi experience is possible at low cost... People are hypnotized by marketing like they are by political propaganda and never listen to acoustic cues which is the only way to learn how to listen...Instead of listening acoustical cues they TASTE directly their gear like a wine .... 😁 They speak about mid frequencies, high and bass at best , their acoustic vocabulary stop there, they completely ignore what LEV/ASW ratio means for example and how to hear it....They have no clue how to control imaging and soundstage and timbre at will... They have no clue especially the richest one boasting about 100,000 bucks piece of gear... At best they read audio magazine reviews, a lost of time and money, instead of a few acoustic and psycho-acoustic books or articles to learn acoustic OPTIMIZATION of what they aleady have which is good most of the time but working in underpar acoustic condition .... But i think you have already guess all that by yourself... Being a thinker you know that only acoustic and psycho-acoustic explain sound and his perception laws , not the gear alone and its design by his magical electrical virtue... Recording technique begin with a room acoustic perspectical take trade-off and end in a listener room /speakers trade-off exhange for some ears ... It is an acoustic and psycho-acoustic translation more than an electronical " pure" impossible reproduction...
😁😊
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To say the truth in a joking manner....
Maximun ignorance law: The acoustic ignorance increase like the square of the gear upgrading number of successive choices in an audiophile life time and stay the same near this point of no return or complete forgetfulness of the room ...
This law is the counterpart of the acoustical optimization law: The acoustic knowledge increase with the number of acoustical cues under room control....
i could not resist... 😁😊 |
I agree with you @mahgister but still I feel that the original post that was removed was wrong for being taken down. The OP only stated facts no untruths yes just maybe in a mocking way but it was clever and it did make a point. It was too bad some members can’t see what it was meant to be. Oh well it did put a smile on my face when I initially read it. |
If the original (now deleted) thread was implying that Jay (Jay's Audio Lab) engages in hyperbole and sensationalism, then I have yet to witness it. I will admit two things though: his youtube titles can be described as hyperbolic sometimes but I always find that the content is very well balanced and accurate. Secondly, I have not watched all his videos, so perhaps there are some which probably fit the description. |
I think that Jay is very honest...Like the OP is also and his question legitimate ... It is not the question... I am honest also and i may use metaphor and hyperbole to communicate HONESTLY my emotion... All reviewer are not tailored on the same mold either ... All reviewers may be informative and entertaining at some ratio...The best one will be informative and also entertaining... The success of Jay thread come from the balance between the two and the two tools, the objective one and the subjective one used equally... It is why this is a "touchy" matter... And being honest and he is , still he must "sell" his expertise and communicate his feelings... And we as customer must take it with a grain of salt... Nothing is white or black here... But this was not a matter for censorship, even if i understand why for sure...
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This is pretty much the last thing I’ll say on this issue. Artemus -- Agreed. I’ve done many posts and have been misunderstood at times. When I’m misunderstood, I first look to see if it was how I initially put things. In some cases, I have clarified, in some cases I have retracted, and in other cases I have stood by what I said. In this case, I stand by what I said before, and now. In my initial post, I did not us the Agon user name or his channel. I did list some of the hyperbolic titles, some of what had the name "Jay" in them. I kept the title verbatim because I was quoting. Sleuths here figured it out. Some here rushed in to "save" Jay from my "bashing." But Jay wrote those titles, not me. He has 10k subscribers. He is engaging in public discourse, open to all. My calling attention to title that *he* wrote on a *public* channel is not bashing. Do his friends and followers believe he is so vulnerable as to need their rescue? In my little opinion, the strategy of clickbait titling, on a pubic-facing audiophile channel, contributes to an issue discussed very often on this forum -- the tendency for industry participants, including reviewers, to promote gear with hyperbole ("the best ever" "the greatest" etc.). It is a way of doing things that I think dilutes and cheapens conversation about the hobby. Disagree? That’s fine. What are your reasons? But clutching your pearls and calling me a "basher"? Grow a pair. I’ve explained this position to the moderator who understood what I was up to and promised to pause a bit longer before deleting another post of mine. Again -- I know this site is a "business." But I’m not a business. I’m a person, engaging in conversation with others about an art form -- living in a culture. Culture trumps business in my book, and I don’t ask permission from "business" for what I say. I say it and see what happens. There was blowback. Fine. But some understood what I said, why, and they took away something to think about. I don’t care about convincing the close-minded or other angry keyboard warriors looking to fight a battle. No need to waste time. |
think i mentioned this in an earlier post in the now deleted thread clickbait is a fact of life these days, any online info source seeking eyeballs engage in the practice, just some content providers are more egregious than others - economics of web is fundamentally ’clicks = $$’ and regarding censorship, it is no more wrong for someone to call out click bait than it is for someone to put clickbait out there in the first place... free speech should cut both ways yes? |
The problem with human societies, and the source of all their issues... is that they are full of individuals. The reason societies work at all and we can possibly even have a functional and growing, expanding, greater and better future - is that they are full of individuals. We end up with small looking, or unimportant looking tiny side battles in life that are concurrent to the perceived larger issues or ’battles’. They are, invariably.. a microcosm of the larger more complex ones. Thus, we end up with small things like this having the depth and scope of the larger ones. Fractal/holographic, if you will. In a hologram, that is shattered, a small less resolved analog of the original is expressed in the fraction, no matter how small. Or, if you will..’As above - so below’. Thus, even a small argument/discussion on a audio website can involve/invoke/contain components of the manifold complexities of issues where the world’s problems have to be solved. This is where we arrive at... to even make a functional set of posts in the course of a given discussion on seemingly unimportant matters. The tendrils of belief and expression go where they go and not much can be done about it but to understand that expressive and fulfilling relation generally brings potentials in complexity, in all things. Being boxed in and drawn out by the depth of inclusion of the internet, in our lives, has only exacerbated this normal human relational set of issues. Most importantly, and dangerously, it has put a set of filters in place that many/most are only marginally aware of (consciousness issues in individual level and type) and created a deep capacity for coloration, by others, the ’others’ who control and shape the given ’internet’. |
@t_ramey Yes, and that comment, too. Well done. |
Well said. I love to hear your voice and learn from you. You are a part of the internet that makes me feel less boxed in. Thanks.
Agreed. Indeed, my influence is minuscule and I make no money by calling out clickbait. Whereas the other individuals are making money at diluting the conversation with clickbait and hyperbole. If anyone stands on weaker normative grounds, it's the carnival barker. But it's all "free speech." Those who think it's "no big deal" are welcome to think that; I have a different set of standards for what I think constitutes real discussion. |
