Another streaming newbie

You may have to start a new thread to get responses for that.  This is an older thread not dealing with the M10 or the B&Ws.

Thanks.  I am interested only in the M-10, its sound quality and how it will power the new B&W 703 speakers.  Would like more comments please.

The Node 2i is from Bluesound, the budget line from NAD.  It is a streamer/DAC, no integrated amp.  I think the streamer and DAC in the M10 are probably better than the Node 2i. 

If you want to start shopping again, you could look for an integrated to go with the Node 2i, but I have no suggestions for you in that area.

I have narrowed my choices for a new system to the NAD M-10 and B&W 703 speakers.  Have a good price with free shipping.  Deal is dependent on getting an offer for my present 1992  804 matrix speakers and BK amp and preamp from one of two retailer buyers.  After reading this thread it seems the discussion is about the less expensive NAD node 2i.  What about the sound quality of the M-10?  Would I still need the external DAC?  Save me some money if I have made a bad choice.  I have never streamed but want to make it a daily practice, probably with a new Ipad.  As an old codger, my music choices range from 1930 to the 1980's and I am not a tech guy; simplicity is my need.  Thanks.

Ok, at last... I got the Pi2aes this week.  All excited, I built it, and after a few fits and starts, it looked all fine. Except no sound.  2 days later, it was finally just a total reboot, erase the microSD and start all over, and ... poof, it plays.  

And sounds great. Nice to control play from my chair!!! And sounds great.  I think I am done. For now.  

Are there any legitimate competitors to the Linn Klimax DS renew lines at their respective price points? Typically Linn Klimax beats equivalent vintage Naim in their TOTL offering and about the same as dCS in their TOTL offering (similar in quality, different in presentation).

I simply don’t under why anyone would bother with anything else.

My travels through into the streaming realm during this Covid stay at home period has been fun. I have a pretty nice ’old school’ hifi system -- Oracle Delphi TT, Ayre PX5E, Modwright tube output Marantz CDP, CJ Premier 16LS2, ARC VT100-2 amp, Quad ESL, Proac and Harbeth speakers w Rel subs. Took the time, with some help from the forums and a couple friends to get good streamed music working in it.

Transports/streamers tried - Sonos Connect (w and w/out Wyred4Sound clock mods), Volumio Primo, Project Streambox S2 Ultra, Node 2i

DACs - Chord 2Qute and Qutest, RME ADI2, Topping MQA D90, Hegel Rost internal DAC (Wolfson)

Music Services - Spotify, Tidal, Qobuz

Takeaways:

1. Moved quickly through highest Spotify to Tidal and Qobuz services, the SQ difference is not subtle. More subtle is SQ difference between Tidal MQA and Qobuz hi res. Have not tried Amazon HD. Suspect this whale will eat them all, esp. T and Q. Tidal is subscale on MQA and its benefits are unclear, Quboz has an incomplete library, poor customer service, sometimes suspect billing practices.

2. Volumio user interface and their Rasb Pi connection interface (I use wifi) just do not get along with me. I am not a super duper computer/network expert but I am not incompetent either. I hated how they interacted and connected - or should I say were difficult to connect. Tried both and returned for refund with frustration (Volumio Primo and Project Streambox). Sonos and BluOs much better imo. Simple and basic at some level, but how they connected and work on phone/tablet is solid. Roon is still out there, haven’t tried, dislike idea of paying $10 a month for Roon, then pay for music streaming too...

3. Blue Node 2i is an interesting piece. Definitely ideal for beginners... does it all with one box, very easy to hook up and use. But it is ironic it purports to provide full MQA sound, but through a rather poor onboard DAC. I was unimpressed with the sound -- SQ was clearly superior on redbook resolution stream through a better DAC like a Chord or RME. I am still trying to hear full MQA through a real and ’serious’ DAC, so bought the Topping MQA D90, but this thing only does full MQA through its USB input (not coax/bnc or optical)... are you kidding me??? So Topping going to be returned too (to be fair, it is a good sounding DAC without MQA, but not better than Chord or RME).

4. If you have a history with Sonos, I would say the modded Sonos units with cleaned up clock output is actually excellent for SQ as well as for interface/hookup. Very impressed with SQ of the Wyred 4 Sound reclocker modded Sonos units. I think it sounds even a touch better than the Node 2i digital stream out ... I think...

5.  I agree with a poster above saying that streaming/sources are still evolving quite a bit... may be unwise to spend big $ on streaming front end/transport and have it obsoleted before long... but that DAC technology is stabilizing and maturing.  I have been very very impressed with the Chord and RME DACs at the $1000-1500 level.  Really great sound, tactile, great PRAT yet warm fullsome whole sounding.  I suspect, thought I haven't had any of the big dollar DACs in my system, that $1000 or so may be the point of diminishing returns for DAC quality.

Hope my experience helps others starting out. It is fun and the idea of surfing through these almost infinite music libraries is wonderful. Overall SQ I am getting is very very close to CD/analog sources.

It's based on my experience trying outboard DACs and comparing to a better quality streamer/DAC (the TEAC NT-505).  The Node 2i is a nice product, and adding an external DAC can make it sound better.  Some say much better.  My experience was that it was a little better.  The NT-505 was much better. 

I still have a Node 2 in my bedroom system and am using the DAC in my Sony TA-ZH1ES instead of the Node 2's DAC.  It sounds really good.  I enjoy it and am not disappointed with the sound quality. 

However, I wanted to get the most out of my main system and when I compared sources - my turntable, CD player, and the Node 2 with an Auralic Vega DAC, the Node 2/Vega sound quality did not hold up to the rest of the sources in my system.  When I replaced the Node 2/Vega with the TEAC NT-505 it took streaming sound quality to another level.

I am not an engineer and can't tell you technical reasons why, but if it makes sense that everything in your system matters, then how can you expect a budget device like the Node 2i to provide a solid foundation that you can build on?  

For me, it was similar to my experience when I tried adding a bunch of "upgrades" and a nice cartridge to a budget turntable.  It did make improvements in sound quality, but at the end of the day, a better constructed turntable with better isolation, a better tonearm, and motor sounded much better, even with a cheap cartridge than the tricked out budget table did with all the upgrades.

@big_greg (and others with knowledge)

"Adding an expensive DAC to the Bluesound is kind of like putting a $1,000 cartridge on a $500 turntable. Sure, it’ll sound better than the stock cart it came with, but you won’t come close to what that $1,000 cartridge is capable of, because the turntable isn’t up to the task."

I am curious on the basis of this comment. Is the digital output of the Node 2i so poor? I have heard/read that older streamers like Sonos Connect etc etc can have a jittery digital output but the Node 2i is a very recent unit. I would understand they cheap out on the built in DAC, but the digital section too?

There are cost effective digital stream cleaners/reclockers out there, well reputed, from Wyred4Sound and Ifi - but supposedly those are really useful for older/known poor digital sources like mid fi CD players, Macbooks, Sonos Connects, the like...

In case this was not mentioned before as an option: you could look at a used Auralic Altair (1st gen). It will stream all the usual services and file formats, it comes with one of the better free music management softwares (Lightning DS) and even lets you browse through 10,000-plus internet radios. And it can be found around the $1200 mark.

I just ordered Rasberry Pi based PI2AES.  I am right at my $2k budget. Yggdrasil GS plus this streamer. This will sound better, be more user friendly than my phone and I am not unhappy with what I am hearing already. My takeaway: DAC is a big deal. Big deal.  

Thanks to all who took the time to help me figure this out. Great stuff and I really appreciate it. 

Now, to the listening! 

Cheers,

Chuck

I vote for the Blusound Node 2i, especially if all you want is streaming from Qobuz and Tidal, and Internet Radio.  The box provides MQA decoding as well as 24-bit / 96 Khz hi-rez recordings.  Outputs are both analog (internal DAC) or SPDIF digital.  It SOUNDS great - as good as any other digital box I have used.

These black (or white) boxes are simple to set-up and much simpler to use than Roon or J River.  The GUI on your desktop computer or your iPhone is easy to use and offers almost as much of the capability of Roon, but at a much smaller price.  I am using mine with a Meridian Direct DAC and have no complaints - it works great and no H/W/S/W monkey business to worry about.  

Streaming servers are where the biggest libraries are, and in fact the day is coming where having a big self-contained server that you rip a bazillion CD's into is already outdated.  Qobuz will always have more albums than you can ever buy or download, and they are always available for playback on your beck and call.  IMHO, the best digital music component you can buy !!

Ok, now I can stream from phone to Ygg.  I learned the hard way in that A/B tests are the path to endless tinkering. Some people like that and I once did. But now, there's just one question: do I like it?  Yep. It's really nice. I never learned how to describe sound, so I won't try. 

Well, a qualified 'yep.'  Playing from the phone is a pain in the butt. No remote, and the phone is lost for other uses while music plays unless I sit 2 feet from amp.  And I am not getting all that Qobuz delivers. So definitely, another player is still on the horizon. 

So, a question.  How much more money does it take to really be better than a raspberry pi based signature or pi2aes ($400 ish)?  

I am always mystified by music reproduction. Forget the fact I am listening to music recorded 50 yrs ago that sounds great today. But more than that, the technology that records, translates a musical instrument & music onto a medium (analog or digital, both amazing), then recovers it and plays all the nuanced sound - different sounds, at the same moment - through speakers. And then with good system, begins to locate the various instruments in space. I know there is well-understood science about this, but still, what I am hearing is magic to me. 

It’s just sweet. With a $75 blue ray player that’s 5? yrs old. So it’s gotta be better and this is plenty good. The one place it struggles with dense music with a lot going on, gets kinda mushed together but that probably takes serious money to fix I fear plus great source material. 

I'm pretty sure the streaming will sound at least as good.

Yggdrasil arrived today. Alas, they failed to ship the usb to RCA cable I need, so 2 more days until streaming test. My old Yamaha CS player has no digital out, but my very cheap Samsung DVD player does, so... at least I can hear CD's thru the DAC.  

If the streaming sounds this good, I will be one happy camper.  I am not expecting my iphone to be this good, maybe my daughters 12 might be. 

Yep, super best audio friends . Sorry

Oh, and pi2design, also... Again thx.

Is it 'superbestaudiofriends?' Must be...

Hey @jeffjazz thx! Ok, i will check audio friends out.  I keep hearing some units take a month or so, others seem to be good out of the box.  To be honest, part of what sold me (besides the reported high performance/price) was their web site tone and reading Jason Stoddard's story on head-fi. Anyway, I am totally excited. Been 15 yrs+ since last piece of audio gear.  

saw you picked up the Yggy. Wise man! I would check out pi2design.com and the PI2AES. Cheaper than Digione and it has AES output which I don’t believe the Digione has. AES sounds best on Schiit. Check out super best audio freinds .org (no spaces) under forums and digital.
Their is a diy write up how to use the Pi2Aes and tons of stuff on the Yggy. For now just get a Lightning to USB adapter and run USB into the Yggy from phone. It will sound excellent. Make sure you leave the Yggy on and run it a month to break it in. It took that long before mine sounded best. Didn’t like it initially. Have fun!

I’m one of the tinkerers. But if you go this route I believe you will get the best bang for buck. Though it requires a little work and knowledge.  I run a Raspberry Pi4b with a Pi2AES as the digital board. I load Moode or PiCorePlayer as software and select Tidal or my music on a hard drive via a app on my iPad - MconnectHD or a Squeezebox app, which goes to my Schit Yggy2 Dac via an AES connection. That was a very long sentence! Or buy a Lumin like others have suggested. Since you are an analogue guy you may want to stick with a R2R Dac like Schiit.
Even the cheaper $700 Bifrost is excellent. They don’t do MQA. Who cares. MQA is not better. I’ve compared MQA Tidal (24/48) to Qubuz 24/96 stuff. Can’t tell much difference at all. Sometimes MQA sounds worse because I think it’s remastered. Tidal sounded a little fuller to me over Qubuz. Qubuz maybe a teeny bit more detailed, but may be hearing that since it’s not as full sounding. Stuck with Tidal since I like their catalogue and genre + playlist selection better.

It arrives tomorrow. I am checking my watch oh about every 23 minutes. 
I will likely get a r pi-based player. Just going to do things one step at a time. If I wait a month or three then my sense of what I want to spend can open up a little. I am really enjoying streaming - with my free tidal 30 days even on just my phone into amp exploring all kinds of music till late in the night. It’s easy to lose sight of music for sound (I’ve done that!) Now I am much more focused on listening to music that moves me.

Congrats on the Yggi! 

I have a cheaper dac and still I don't think the sound is nearly as good with my phone as a streamer as it is with a computer. You might want to order an Allo or something else pretty quickly.

You had an earlier question about software and I just use Volumio on my RPi and controls that from any phone. We mostly streams Spotify on it by just choosing "Stream to device" and choose the RPi but I store flac files on it also. If you want to use Tidal or Qobuz you probably need a subscription from Volumio. They are around €29 per year or less than €3 per month if you pay for a year. You might also be able to use Roon but I have not tried that.

Ok, last thing. This all was inspired by being home a bunch (we're usually really active, outside all day here near the beach) and then we moved the audio to our combo family/kitchen.  Where I plug iphone in as we make dinner and inevitably, we dance a little as we cook.  Sweet.  Fun to see my wife dancing as she drinks a beer,  

@tvad... ps: how's the UI?

@tvad... thanks. I had just looked at this from the thread debating streamer vs server vs transport.  That's a serious alternative.  How are you liking your Ygg?  

Hahaha.  Audiophile-land remains as nuts today as 15 yrs ago.  So I am starting to really dive into streamers and of course ran into the CD-transport vs server vs streamer debate, and in a couple of places, heated debate.  Quick decision: streamer.  It's the library that is so awesome.  I mean, right now I just heard the orig demo of Revolution and now McCartney doing a live Hey Jude. Never heard either of these before. Awesome.  

My CD collection is puny and player is puny. No need to try to remedy this, although for 30 minutes, I chased that idea a little.  I mean, a quality DAC (assuming it does sound good to me) does open options up.

I ordered Schitt Yggdrasil gs (sort of a hybrid of last version, new version of this dac) today. Next is to figure out the player/streamer. Interim will be iPhone. Seems that building the raspberry pi based digione signature is a great thing, I just have to make sure I understand how all the pieces connect - streaming system (assume qobuz), controller (Roon on iPhone), player/os/connectors, and dac all fit. The pi physical build is the easy part. It’s putting all this stuff together so software keeps working together that has me scratching my head. 15 day return will give me time to assess whether this is a good anchor for digital...

The modi 3 is their best value and is a good dac for $100. Used Node2i would be easy way to start streaming or a raspberry pi4  if you are comfortable  assembling  a small computer or you can get them ready to go for about $300.

I need to get started cheaply and upgrade later. How is the basic Schitt Modi for a starter DAC? What is a cheaper but decent quality way to stream into it?

A couple of things.  Qobuz dropped the rate for their "Studio" subscription (which allows you to stream their hi-res files) to $14.99 / month.  Tidal is still $19.99 for the "Hi-Fi" subscription, which lets you stream MQA.  Some MQA files sound "different" to me also, but not necessarily better.

I have had Tidal for over a year running with Bluesound 2i into Primaluna Pre and Ayre 5Vxe to Dynaudio Special 40s. MQA does make diff regardless what people say. Two downsides - MQA selection is limited and with Bluesound 2i, you must connect using RCAs if you want to leverage MQA in that box. The Burr Brown DAC’s are fine, but they are definitely inferior to a higher end DAC. I also use Roon, and recommend it highly for curating data. The metadata capture is second to none. 
Last thing i would mention, is that Amazon has a high Rez offer now that is far less expensive than other streaming services. The only challenge with my current setup is Roon doesn’t support Amazon. I think this is inevitable. If Tidal doesn’t find a way to scale MQA to many more tiles, I don’t see them surviving.

Ok, first decision made. Ordering Schitt Yggradsil GS DAC tomorrow.  Still chewing on player, and initially will just run iphone into Ygg USB.  I think it is the modular/upgrade design plus value position ($1600 new) that got my attention.  I mean, no way to know if it'll mesh, so we'll see.  Clearly I am going to bust right thru that $2k ceiling. Ha. What else is new? 

@mikethehunterguy... I thought of that same approach you suggested, but truth is I like the thought of driving music from a chair, no disc washing, less wear on the vinyl, etc, etc.  Pandemic laziness has set in. 

I purchased a Denon DNP 800 NE refurbished online last month for $369. I figured that is a great way to dip my toes into streaming. So far I am very happy with it. At some point I may upgrade, but for now am very happy I went this direction instead of all in on separate audio streamer and dac. This would be very similar to the bluesound node.

My advice. You are playing vinyl now. Stick with it. I use my Raspberry Pi streamer with Qobuz to discover new music I want on vinyl. Occasionally I listen critically to Qobuz, but really vinyl holds my attention the most. My suggestion. Pick up a Bluesound Node 2 or 2i. Then get a Topping D90 or DX7 Pro. This will come very close to $1k. The DACs listed are some of the best measuring and performing that you can by at 4 times the price! Then see what moves you more. If streaming, then upgrade this system. If still vinyl, then you are set!

I see a few mentions for Roon, but no one has mentioned Audirvana. I tried both and for the money, Audiravana was my choice. Mostly, because it streams FLAC and most other formats directly from my iMac to my Oppo BD103 and sounds pretty good to me. It doesn't use Airplay, so the sound isn't limited to 16/44. It has a decent interface and a solid iPhone app as well. It might be something to check into as well.

I started on this journey long ago (tech years). Spotify then Deezer and then a shoot out Twix Tidal and Qobuz. I thought Qobuz edged out Tidal, no MQA for me, High Rez Qobuz (24/96) is enough.

Started with Sonos, Then added external DAC, Then modified the Sonos each step picking up improved SQ. Currently sitting at a Bryston BDP Pi as a Roon end point with a Wadia DAC. This managed by a Roon Core running On my iMac.

Glad to hear you are considering a Raspberry Pi. That’s what my Bryston is based on and I think it sounds great. The Bryston Pi is a pricy piece at $1.4k. But if you keep your eye out you can’t get them for half that. I found mine on USA audio mart for less than $600. Build your own sounds fun , good project for a retired guy and an engineer consultant close by. My local dealer here has a demo Chord DAC for around $1.5K so if you could do a combo like that you would be in around $2K. Then if you add a Roon core running on your network you get the immersive user management console. All for a pretty cheap price. My next step will be to get rid of this noisy ass iMAC and add a dedicated Sonic Transport to run the Roon Core.

Used Lumin U1 mini or Innous Mini 3 + Schiit Bifrost Multibit dac should b a combo that provides u w very good streaming quality.  Good luck.

If you are looking to dip your toes into the streaming pond, you could do worse that the Bluesound Node 2i.   I transitioned from vinyl to streaming and started with the Node 2i. I was very happy with it, especially with the app.  I liked it so much I upgraded to the PowerNode 2i.  
I did not see it specifically mentioned  in this forum, but make sure the Node or PowerNode is a 2”i” and not just the older model “2”.  The newer model 2i has better Bluetooth connectivity.  Also, if you settle on the PowerNode 2i, get the model with the HDMI connection; you can always incorporate it into a 2-channel surround sound video system.  
BTW, Steve Guttenberg reviewed the Node 2i this morning:

https://youtu.be/F31RAuvik8g

COCKTAIL AUDIO X-45 MAYBE KNOWN AS NOVATRON
All you'd need to future proof.

Along with everyone else get. A bluesound 2i get used to it then get seperate DAC once you feel the music and can tell how it improves and changes. The 2i is brilliant for the money and I'm using with tidal masters into Luxman 550ax2 and tannoy arden... No complaints

Chuckccs- your better dacs have a network interface or i2s. Any computer/3rd party streamer with attached disks will be noisy plus most users with computers/streamers in the audio room use usb which is a flawed interface, even when you tweak it out with the many different products on the market. Sure, people will tell you to get a nas or use ssd, both unnecessary. 
My ps audio ds sr dac has a network interface and roon allows this to be an endpoint So thru my iPad/iPhone, I can direct my music to the ds dac or any of my other 6 endpoints in my house. Very simple with the best sq.

@jazzman I am still trying to figure out this level of detail...But I saw a video of how you can download the various OS onto that external storage. I am thinking Roon playing Qobuz (from what everyone says... this is all still pretty abstract to me).  But I am thinking the Schitt piece is really good and is probably the anchor.  I also am replacing our router and getting decent Ethernet cable. 

I'm currently running a Node 2i into some pretty decent gear. For the price, I really think you should pick one up and give it a spin. There is a reason they are so popular and being recommended here over and over again. 

That being said, I'm getting rid of mine. Mine is having a hard time finding my local music stored on my SSD. I'm sure I could figure it out if I really wanted to, but I (sort of) enjoy putting new pieces of gear in and out of the chain. Since you would just be streaming, this doesn't affect you.
I'm only posting to give you the options that I'm looking at as they differ.

The CA 851N is a streamer/dac/pre that has garnered a lot of great press and was just recently discontinued. They can be had for around $1K and I'm fairly sure you would be pleased with the sound quality. 
https://www.whathifi.com/us/cambridge-audio/azur-851n/review

My other route is just a streamer that I add the dac/pre to.
The Pro-ject Streambox Ultra s2 is based off the Rasb Pi but has been made with strictly music as the intended goal. 
This has also been highly reviewed. They are $850 from the audio resellers, but there are several of them for sale new on ebay for $450.
https://darko.audio/2019/03/have-your-pi-eat-it-pro-jects-stream-box-s2-ultra/

Best of luck and happy hunting.

Both the Yggy and the Allo are well reviewed pieces with strong followings and reputation for good value for the money quotients.  I have no hands on experience with either.  My question is what do you intend to do for the OS for the Allo .... Volumio ... Roon ... Other?   What is your roadmap for where you want to go?  Once you got that figured out and what fits into your budget, then everything else falls into place.