In Prometheus Dr. Elizabeth Shaw replies to the question why she believes people go to heaven after they die, “Because it’s what I choose to believe.” A rich man 💰has about as much chance of entering audio Nirvana as a camel 🐫 has of passing through the eye 👁 of a needle.
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Maybe a sports team would make a better analogy. Yes, there are people who buy a sports team as a vanity project. Hell they may not even care about the sport at all, but they need to be part of that exclusive club. That doesn't mean that the person who has been following the team for 20 years is any less a fan. In fact, he/she may be a better fan and know more about the game, the team, and the play than any of the owners. I am going to beat this story to death, but having watched a guy go into a store, listen to a badly set up pair of speakers (mismatched polarity, and juiced crossover settings) and go "How much are they? i like them, i take them." proves to me that you can buy the gear, but only love and experience makes you an audiophile. |
@fordboy @jsautter Let be clear on a few things. ‘Music Lover’ is not a synonym of ‘Audiophile’. And in its very founding, America is all about ‘less privilege’ and minimizing the prevalence privileged classes (i.e. Kings, Queens, Lords). America has forgotten to be critical of the wealthy, the wealthy have become contemporary aristocracy, just without the blatant silly titles. America was meant to be a meritocracy. Every generation deserves an even playing field...and if they work hard the will earn their just rewards and be a productive member of society (as long as their success does not disadvantage or infringe upon the rights of other citizens). People seem to forget this. I think having a strong sense of perspective and proportion are also important aspects of being an Audiophile and it takes work, and learning. If you are a ‘spare no expense’ kinda person then there is a good chance you have an under-developed sense of perspective and proportion and may not be educating yourself as much as you could be and are probably making decisions based on someone telling you about the ‘new thing’, or the ‘best thing’. Having to make critical and practical decisions in general is evidence one can operate as a reasonable adult in the world. It is also an essential part of assembling a sound system. Just look at some people who do not have to make critical or practical decisions in life—child stars and the children of the very wealthy. They end up as not very healthy or productive citizens right? If you can do anything, afford anything, you do not learn to make good decisions. Period. I dont think you can be an Audiophile if you are not making critical and practical decisions about your gear and balancing those pursuits with the rest of your life. |
One can acquire good sound at many price points. Thus, changing gear, upgrading, etc. All the hallmarks of an audiophile, can occur at many different financial levels. As one moves through life, a successful professional often moves through new tax brackets. Does that change their appreciation of music/gear, I think not. It just changes their options. Same is true for cars, homes, etc. Level of wealth is a red herring as it is not an indicator of interest in audio, although it influences choices available to you. |
"All the hallmarks of an audiophile, can occur at many different financial levels." And none of those levels are available to many lower middle class earners and virtually no lower class earners. It is almost painful watching some of you guys mentally trying to make hi-fi a hobby for the masses. There seem to be two tacks: 1) Being an audiophile is just a state of mind or 2) Being an audiophile is affordable and available to everyone. Neither of these are remotely true. No matter how much we wish they were. |
It seems that America also forgot that you can be a music lover or audiophile elsewhere. |
"...the children of the very wealthy. They end up as not very healthy or
productive citizens right? If you can do anything, afford anything, you
do not learn to make good decisions. Period."
Clearly they're all lazy good for nothing...... for example.... https://bestlifeonline.com/celebrities-who-were-born-wealthy/ |
When I tap my foot, when my wordly troubles disappear, when I am awed at the beauty of music—those are the moments I am after. Some of those moments come each week from life music made with friends, some of those come from listening to my system. That said, I waste/invest lots of time reading up on and listening to gear. That’s the part of the hobby which isn’t about the music per se. If I could eliminate my tinnitus, I would gladly downgrade my system! |
brettmcee, You are mixing things up a bit. You are equaling being a child from a wealthy family with being allowed to do anything or actually buying anything. At the same time, there are many out here who were allowed to do anything and were never told "no" by their parents, regardless of financial status, who are now healthy and productive citizens. |
Well brett most of what you have said are just ridiculous generalizations. People that are able to make sound critical and practical decisions at a high level often are the same people that you shame with your comments about the wealthy. Please tell me how we level the playing field. Since you post like someone who isnt wealthy, I am sure that you wont be contributing at a high level. |
Being an audiophile has nothing to do with money. Yes, you need to have money, but more importantly you are a music lover on a quest to compile the best components possible that when combined, achieve the best sound. Adding a $1300 power cord to a basic all-in-one turntable, then connecting wirelessly to Best Buy active Bluetooth bookshelf speakers, might not be the most optimized use of your money. That’s probably about $2000 worth of audio gear that would be considered “starter kit” budget. But an audiophile takes that $2000 budget, and maximizes all components equally to milk every last music note out of that system. Then over time updates their components to steadily achieve different or better sound to their liking. It’s a quest and journey that never ends. |
While I would agree that decent audio today requires a middle class income, I remember buying decent gear when a Sgt in the Army. I prioritized my spending towards audio. One does not need to be wealthy in order to accumulate gear and appreciate decent sound. Much is how you prioritize your spending as well as income level. Yes, it is easy to spend substantial funds in order to develop a system that pleases you. I would hold out Elizabeth as an audiophile who has a terrific system and is by no means rich by American standards. I will share some perspective of “rich”. I have a friend, retired professor at a small school. He immigrated from Vietnam. Je told me that viewed himself as rich because he could go into most any restaurant and buy a meal. I immediately understood as I remember when I could not. Lets not confuse the insane prices of some gear with being an audiophile. I was a sports car nut when I drove a $400 Austin Healey Sprite. I didn’t change many years later when I bought a 6 speed Mercedes sports car. The same us true of my audio gear. |
I think people are forgetting the OP's premise which was that you can be an audiophile regardless of your monetary status. It is clear even from those who are trying to defend this silly idea that it is false in the extreme. Having posters of super cars on your wall, knowing all the Pagani specs and watching every episode of Top Gear does not make one a sports car aficionado. The same with audio. What you want and what you feel are not relative if you have no means to experience what you are passionate about. It is a hard truth. One that @brettmcee is having a hard time working through. And don't worry brett, you haven't hurt anyone's feelings.....but maybe yours are at risk. The simple fact that you have the means to post on this website makes your more wealthy than most of the world's population. And while it might be mean spirited to point out that you too are one of the wicked wealthy at least you know that you should by no means have children since they'd be, well, you said it......... |
Most music lovers are not audiophiles, but the vast majority of audiophiles love music. Lot's of people attending live performances don't really care too much how it sounds...(if they would, they wouldn't be going...). Lot's of people going to bars/disco's don't really care about the sound....(if they would, they wouldn't be going...) yet if no music was played, nobody would go... However, an audiophile has acquired a certain knowledge, can indicate when sound doesn't sound good, knows how to tune equipment, knows how to tune the room, all in all it is quite complicated to achieve the maximum possible with certain equipment in a certain environment. Being able to make acoustic corrections to the listening environment, being able to define speaker placement and so on. In fact, given the above, there will be many more music lovers than audiophiles around. It's just that there is no actual acknowledgement on when an individual qualifies as an audiophile. Other grades like engineer or doctor are all easier, as such grades are given after successful completion of the related studies. Lot's of self proclaimed "audiophiles" would benefit if they could have an experienced audiophile auditing their equipment and the listening environment. Adjustments could be made, costing next to nothing, but improving the overall sound significantly. What I'm saying is that the classification "audiophile" has nothing to do with the expense of his/her equipment at home, but has everything to do with the acquired knowledge and experience of that individual. |
Given the above, an experienced audiophile will be able to have a $ 2k set up outperform a $10 k set up, if he can treat the room acoustically, optimize speaker placement, optimize the listening position and so on, when compared to the $10k set up installed by the average music lover.. However, the same individual will usually also be able to have the $10k set up outperform the $ 2k set up after optimizing the variables involved. The same applies when moving up the price range, baring in mind that the law of diminishing returns always applies. |
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With all the auto analogies @n80 you should be selling used cheap scrapyard 70s cars instead of commenting on audio forums. Your comments are not taken seriously by anyone except the very few. As long as someone has the audio sound mindset they can be an audiophile. Each person has their own level of audio maturity who are we to say they arent. Its only frigging audio not life threatening issues |
@vinny55 I said indeed that most music lovers are not audiophiles. But then again, to me an audiophile is someone who has extensive knowledge of all related aspects as I mentioned above. But, as there is no clear standard or qualification requirement, no graduation, anybody may call him- or herself an audiophile. ;) To me most music lovers can't really interpret or understand room acoustic analysis, which is a basic requirement to be able to make the needed adjustments. Most music lovers can't really understand why the sound is not what they want. So they will follow the "trial and error" method, buying equipment as their budget allows, hoping that one day they find the solution. (most likely they find frustration). However, I do realize that for others, probably including yourself, once you like to listen music, you are an audiophile. I'm also fine with that. It still does not relate to any value of the equipment used. |
The true and dedicated are at places like DIYAudio.com They could be considered audiophiles, as they will go further. To ’grow their own stone’, as it were. To be the builder of the gear itself, to get the best possible, that they can conceive or shape in their minds, in most cases. (doing their best, kinda thing) Money and will... can only take you so far. Sooner or later, to go as far as you can possibly go, you need to put all of your skin in the game. So opinionated that they make the arguments around here look like the fluff of angry 5 year olds. To add...they’ve got a thick forest of their own experience, so they can’t see the limits of their own walls of that experience. Thus their positions can be unbelievably intractable, in levels, depths, and ways - that few here can fathom. If you think arguments here cannot be won with logic and reason in the face of self lies, bad self generated data, and illiteracy, well...you have no idea how bad that condition can really be. Some even take to the limit and get into manufacturing the stuff. Consider this stat from the DIYAudio site: Most users ever online was 10,051, 26th May 2019 at 09:13 AM. |
@vinny55 : "With all the auto analogies @n80 you should be selling used cheap scrapyard 70s cars instead of commenting on audio forums." For the first time in this thread you might be right. "Your comments are not taken seriously by anyone except the very few." I can live we that. " As long as someone has the audio sound mindset they can be an audiophile." Let's apply that logic to other things in this fantasy world: I play a doctor on TV, therefore, I am a doctor. I am passionate about space travel, therefore I am an astronaut. I have never been on a boat but I love luxury yachts, therefore I am a luxury yachtsman. I read Air and Space Magazine, therefore I am a pilot. I watch pro football every Sunday, therefore I am a pro football player. What a great world you must live in where every one has the exact same opportunities and capabilities. It must be magical..............as long as you keep your tinfoil hat on. |
@han_n agreed... audiophiles are on a quest to optimize their system, based on the budget given. To optimize my very small budget, I chose speaker stands to put my KEF LS50 Wireless on, instead of investing an additional $300-$500 on my SVS interconnects(spent $75). This choice was based on my learnings about listening position, speaker placement, and law of diminishing returns on cables/components. Also understanding the limitations of my listening room allowed me to understand where I can best spend my money. I have to completely disagree with the member who used the “sports car aficionado” comparison. Definitions of aficionado and enthusiast are basically the same. An audiophile is an enthusiast, not a trained expert. And a sports car aficionado is just an enthusiast or lover of cars, which is my other wallet crippling hobby. There is nothing in either definition, that prevents any person from having passion and interest about a subject, and this includes audio gear. I might not own a $100K system, but I certainly might attend an audio show for $25 to listen to and talk about what is being showcased. Again, it is the quest, not the end result, that makes you an audiophile. |
@n80 yeah, you really need to work on your analogies, because you are mixing professional careers with enthusiasts. I would never call myself a race car driver, just because I own a Porsche and have put a few laps on a track. But yes, I would certainly call myself a sports car aficionado. Maybe Google the definitions of these words (pilot, doctor, yachtsman, etc) before you make comparisons, because an audiophile is definitely not a professional, nor requires any training to become one. Audiophile: “An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction.” If you have a different and widely accepted definition that you can point us to online, that would be great to share. |
Problem is what is the definition of "high-fidelity" sound? I know my definition has changed dramatically since I started this hobby 42 years ago. The other assertion that isnt a given is that the wealthy are less scrupulous with their dollars than the poor or middle class. Most of the wealthy that I know dont have time to listen to their systems because they are working. But, perhaps unlike vinny and brett, I actually have some wealthy friends. |
I play a doctor on TV, therefore, I am a doctor.. Doctors, astronauts, pilots, and football players go through rigorous training (and weeding) to get to these *professional* accreditations. Maritime training is available and occasionally required, depending on waterway and vessel. Yachts also have to stay afloat and get to their destination. Really bad captains are eliminated through accidents and insurance costs. Being a really crappy audiophile (does this exist?) doesn’t lead to any sort of Darwinian sorting. Even if having an opinion on Audiogon sometimes leads to childish piling-on, that doesn’t forcibly remove anyone from their audiophile aspirations. Yachtsmen and audiophiles are typically *amateurs*, typically do not go through this training, and are identified more by enthusiasm than accomplishment or certification. So the yachtsmen analogy is only OK, the rest are completely inapposite to audiophiles. The audiophiles are, indeed, the ones reading the magazines, loving the equipment, and listening every Sunday. |
@bignamehere and @ahofer: As I've said before, don't try to carry the analogies too far. Try to get the point rather than picking an analogy apart. And for the record those analogies were meant to be over-the-top for the sake of vinny. Yes, if you drive your Porsche on a racetrack then you are likely a sports car aficionado. (I'm a track instructor.) But as you say, no you are not a race car driver. But if you just happen to like Porsches and sports cars but don't own one and have never driven one then you are neither an aficionado or a race car driver. I truly don't understand why people are struggling with this. I guess part of it is that they are getting hung up on this patently stupid definition: “An audiophile is a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction.” Just put it into application. Someone tells you they have a low paying job, struggle to make ends meet but are very enthusiastic high fidelity sound reproduction but have never had or heard any high end reproduction but are quite sure their new bluetooth Walmart headphones are just as good. Is this person an audiophile? They meet the definition. Right? Time for a better definition. Maybe one where "enthusiasm" (how do you measure that?) is the prime criteria. |
@vinny55 : "
@N80 i have multifaceted interests not just audio. Ive read about and owned lots of equipment and thousands of records cassettes and cds. Audio is a big passion of mine." How is that relevant to anything being discussed here except for the fact that it pretty much confirms that you are an evil wealthy person like the rest of us? |
@n80 ...no worries on kids. I'd rather spend my extra cash and time on audio, but thanks for the well wishes! But if I did make some babies, still might, my wife and I would raise intelligent, compassionate, grateful children with a healthy world view, who would have no problem understanding the roots of evil (greed, sophistry, over-inflated or fragile egos, privilege, elitism, extravagance, indifference, antipathy). Again sorry to hurt rich peoples feelings. I am sure some of you are really great, but I know the world can appear more simple and easily conceived of for you. If people cant afford nice things it all their fault. If people take money from the government they are lazy deadbeats. If people get their money from their parents they are fortunate and totally entitled to the best the world has to offer. If they make their money off the labor of others who struggle to make ends meet they are clever, industrious, glorious, capitalists and deserving of every accolade (and tax loophole....)! Go read some more Ayn Rand and keep trying. Meanwhile I'll keep enjoying my Audiophilia and continue making movies to entertain the people of America. |
@n80 yeah, maybe just don’t use analogies my friend, because using one poorly does the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve. :) All of your analogies require a career in something or specific training. Audiophilia, by globally accepted definition, requires neither being a professional, nor any type of training. Also look at the definition of the word aficionado. And in the context of sports cars, I’ve yet to see a definition that states you must own the item you are enthusiast about.... including sports cars. Because you seem to think you know a better better definition than the globally accepted one provided... do the world a favor and contact Dictionary.com or Wikipedia and try to persuade them on something that fits your liking. Until you have changed the world’s view on the term, maybe you should accept the majority rule of this forum who disagree with your POV. “Good talk Russ” |
@bignamehere right on good luck on him and all the others giving all these bogus analogies trying to change wikipedia or all the worlds dictionaries on the meaning of audiophile. Speak for yourself @N80 im nowhere near rich like you and evil? Imperfect yes.. evil is a stretch. Your just saying that to make yourself feel better. @ahofer dude get a life. Nowhere on this green earth does it say you need specialization and a university or college degree to be an Audiophile. You guys have brought this hobby to an absolute low in your mindset. Wow i cannot beleive what im actually hearing. This music and amplifier sucks |
"...do the world a favor and contact Dictionary.com or Wikipedia and try to persuade them on something that fits your liking."Did rules on Wikipedia change? It used to be that you could edit things. Even I did a few. I am tempted to try to change definition of "audiophile" to "the one who babbles on AudiogoN". |
You used to be able to change Wikipedia, but it’s been years since I’ve been able to update part of a page (correct & sited or not) and it wasn’t immediately moderated and deleted within minutes. They seem to require very reputable sources, which is why n80 would probably easily convince them to change it. 😉😏 |