I recently sent my Musical Fidelity a308cr power amp off to be recapped. This amp is somewhere around 16-18 years old and one of the power caps failed. I contacted Musical Fidelity and sent it to a repair shop they recommended. Today I received an estimate to replace 18 caps, 8 of which are large power caps, resolder the boards, and re-bias the transistors. Basically a full overhaul. The quote I received, including return shipping (prob around $100) Is over $1,300 which possibly exceeds the value of the amp. That doesn’t include the $115 it cost me to ship it out. Having never had an overhaul done on a power amp like this, I’m wondering if anyone with experience can tell me if this sounds right. I guess I was expecting something more like $600-$800 but I don’t know why since I really don’t have a frame of reference. Perhaps it was the assumption it might be 4 hours labor (say $400) plus max $200 for caps. Is $1,300+ on track? Either way I’m going to be out the shipping cost plus a $160 fee paid for the estimate.
Lots of comments here so I won’t try to add something that has already been said. I just bought an A308CR power amp 4 months ago from an owner where it sat in the box unused for over a decade. It looks like new and hasn’t even a spec of dust inside the case. I paid $1350 shipped to me. The sound is wonderful an was a clear upgrade from my A3.2CR. I say bite the bullet and have it fixed at the shop it is at now, listen to it and if it brings you joy, keep it. If you want to go another direction, I think you will come close to reselling it for what you paid on the repair listing it as a "refreshed", "recapped" or "upgraded"(if better caps are used) amplifier. Good luck to you from another Musical Fidelity lover. This article may help you remember why you loved the A208CR so much. https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=amp&n=195927&highlight=driver+24+bit&r=&am...
whre are you located? I sent my amp to two places for different repairs. Both were stellar!!! One in Washington state, the other in Illinois. Maybe their price would be better? Maybe? Soundsclassic.com is in Illinois. North in Rockford.
How much do you like the amp is the question?
I sent in my Sunfire Sig. to be checked, some caps were replaced, and other stuff, was checked, and he said he thought the amp was brand new, as there was no blackening or misuse, or any kind of wear associated with a used amp. Made me happy. Hoping to get 20 more years from this amp. I love the 1ohm posts, and the loose style of bass, which is a tube sound trait. Such a good amp.
I figured I'd update this thread in case anyone was interested.
I went ahead and authorized the repair. I was already out $160 for the diagnostic, $115 for shipping, and would pay another $100ish to have it shipped back. Then if I found a different repair center, another $100ish to ship it to them. So even if I could find someone to do it for $800, I had $475 in sunk costs making it close to a wash and exposing me to extra risk in shipping the amp all over the place.
The repairs appear to be done well - everything inside looks clean and well put together. The large filter caps are now Nichicon, so at least decent quality. I hooked up the amp in my second system and it is working fine. Hard to say if it sounds better since I haven't heard it in two years and my second system is a home theater. I will eventually try it in my main stereo system but literally every component in it has changed since the last time I used this amp so that also won't be an apples to apples comparison.
In the end, I wasn't ready to just "throw it away" so even though it was a lot of money, I was basically backed into the cost corner already and thought it was better to have the amp working perfectly again. I do appreciate the feedback I got in this thread. In the end, I'm sure I overpaid for the repair but based on my sunk costs, that was basically inevitable. Lesson learned and at least the amp should be good for another couple decades. In the long run I'm not going to regret it.
That is a high price. You would have a hard time finding a price that big going elsewhere. Parts are less than $70 estimated. Time for work, let's go long and say 8 hrs. An experienced tech, esp with that exact piece of equipment, would do this faster. $100 bucks an hour to cover labor and overhead, I come up with 870 plus tax. None of these rebuilds are cheap anymore, that's for sure. All depends on how much you like this amp, and what it would cost to replace it new. If done properly, amp should last awhile.
flipwils 11; Yes, I sent it to Pyramid. I have never had a problem with the preamp but at over 20 years old, and a history of potential cap leakage resulting in board etching, I thought it best to have it inspected and refurbished. Can't wait to hear it!
Waiting for UPS! The refurbishment of my Mark Levinson 380s Preamp is complete and on the way home. Looking forward to 20 more years of great music! Total cost was $714.50 plus shipping to TX. Depending on how it sounds when it gets back, I'm very happy with the price.
I didn't see it in here. What is the charge to say. "Do no repair?" I'm not a tech, but I have repaired and rebuilt many amps. This looks like 6 hours or so for me, which makes me think that a tech that is familiar with this model could do it in 4 hours or less. Also, I have a shelf of a varied quality of caps that are all 50, 63, 80 or 100 volt parts, 10,000 to 47,000 mfd caps. This amp most likely has somewhere between 10 to 22,000 mic parts and realistically 63 to 80 volts... These caps run from $15 for 10,000 to around $25 for 22,000 80v and all can be had for half of that if you don't mind chinese parts. Current labor around me averages around $95 an hour. Lets say 5 hours of work, 8 filter caps at $20 each and 8 smaller caps at $4 each... That puts you at $675, maybe a couple of odds and ends. Puts you at $700, plus return shipping. You may feel like a cheap skate or something, but I would put numbers to Musical fidelity, tell them what you feel and ask them to see what they can do. If you love the amp and will keep it for years, fix it. If not, cut your losses. I suspect that there is some wiggle room and they may offer a better price. Good Luck, Tim
My feeling based on amp restoration I've paid for in the past. $700-900 US seems about right. I would look into other restoration routes and then make the call. All the best! Nick
Simple idea: What can you buy for $1300 that would suit your needs better? Or are you upgrading so that you can sell it for more as a used amp? You haven't listened to it for 2 years, so why not sell it as is and use the $1300 to go to Sandals?
I had the same thing happen to me from a shop out of Southern CA. $1400 to replace a total of 53 capacitors. I didn't think my old Krell amp had 53 caps! To add insult to injury, and after the hard sell to get me to pay for it rather than buy a new amp like Pass Labs or Ayre, he told me my amp would be better after they rebuilt it. Riiight. When I still refused he offered me $200 for it. Such snakes. So I would up buying an Ayre VX-5 Twenty instead. Cost to do the same work from Ayre? $300 including shipping it back! This coming from Ryan Berry (the CEO). Talk about a company who wants to keep their clients happy even when amps are out of warranty, etc. So my Krell KAV-250a is just collecting dust because I don't trust anyone to do the cap work honestly.
I just did a 7 year restoration on a car with completely new panels and massive welding and rust repair. The car drives and rides tighter than new.
You get what you pay for. And some people don't subscribe to a throwaway, disposable use culture. These objects (cars, amplifiers, etc) are fixable and are not something you give up on.
I feel it is too much money to invest into an old piece of stereo electronics. It is like the old family car. First the battery, then the alternator, then the water pump then the radiator then the clutch then the oil filter housing then the tranny etc. At some point you just have to cut your losses and buy a new one and use it for another 15 plus years. Also, to me it feels like body work on a car, it never comes back from the shop as good fitting and looking as it came from the factory when new. My two cents.
I finally received my Levinson 23.5 back from Pyramid Audio in Austin Texas. The left channel went out back in May, I got it packed up and shipped in early June, and got it back right before Halloween. They had some difficulty with the repair because my amp was a bit of a pain to get right.
The total cost was $3700 not including shipping to them. It was a huge pita and although I am overall happy, it is a more money than brains exercise.
If you are going to do this, only use UPS freight. I nearly had a disaster shipping to them using regular UPS but luckily I used a mega size Pelican hard case which was a $300 investment on its own. UPS freight guarantees it will ship on a pallet and not get rolled around on warehouse conveyor belts.
Like I said, more money than brains and a big investment in an old amp. But I love it.
Friday I'm sending my Mark Levinson 380s off to Texas for an inspection and refurbishment. For the $1,000 I'll spend, I hope to get another 20 years of beautiful music which works out to about $50 bucks a year. The alternative is spending $10 to $15K to replace it ($500 to $750 a year). I like the $50 a year number and I love the sound of the 380s.
mozartfan -
if you're that curious about brand & quantity, please contact Emotiva since they did the work in their shop. Or you can try to determine that in cover-off photos in the linked article.
The specific capacitor brand(s) used in the amplifier didn't matter to me at the time of original purchase (and I didn't ask/care what brand of caps were in the Citation amp that it replaced either.) What mattered was how each of those amplifiers performed with my speakers (quite well, thank you.)
Personally speaking, I don't get hung up on those things. That said, I am reasonably confident that:
the parts used by the Emotiva technicians met, or exceeded, the original technical/performance criteria laid out by the Emotiva engineers when they designed the thing,
the amp met or exceeded factory spec before being returned to me
Based on the comments I will take that bet. A bunch show evidence of understanding the work just fine. It's the ones that go off on a tangent with esoteric replacement parts that make me pause.
I opened another disc on TECH TALK, , with the discussion taking on up this issue,,, 1) repair? 2) upgrade? 3) sell?
I thought over this $1500 tech estimate and I've come to the conclusion (based on my exp of local techs fees) this amount is excessive. Tech's know they have little competition , so audiophiles are left with little choice but to pay up. We all need to list techs that we know who are fair and reasonable,, this way we can see how far a drive one of these techs are from our home , or pay shipping. I have no tech here in the new orleans area who I can recommend. Sorry.
FWIW - I had sent my Emotiva XPA-2 gen-1 amp about 18-months ago to Emotiva's facility in Tennessee for a channel dropout issue. While it was there, they evaluated the amp and recommended replacing its capacitors.
Cost for that was $465, which included the parts & labor for:
My UBER driver has 2-3x that invested in his business for a point of perspective. I hope you have IR on that hot air reflow. $10K is also about $3K/yr. in tax write-off, another perspective to be weighed against a full time repair shop with 6 figure billing.
Digikey ships out at 6pm Pacific and it is there by noon the next day. Odds are you don't have all those large electrolytic capacitors in stock so you were going to be ordering any way. Typical turnaround on repair is 1-2 weeks on electronics, so the 1 day turn on parts should not be an issue and customers understand parts need to be ordered.
The op stated 18 capacitors replaced, it appears some touch up of solder joints, though that could just be resoldering the capacitors. Not good to just randomly resolder joints. That can create more problems than it solves.
The op already paid a $160 estimate fee to locate the problem. It is the manufacturer recommended service location, hence they have access to the manufacturer for schematics and other service information.
The approximately size of the capacitors was noted above and only some of them are large, and they are not 40-60,000uF, they are smaller and as noted the total cost is likely in the $200 range.
None of what you said negates that for someone skilled with the right tools, and the manufacturers recommended shop, so they should not be guessing, but just doing the work, that this is a 3-4 hour job, plus overhead for parts sourcing, packing, unpacking, admin overhead, etc.
This is why I am very selective in the work I take in, and who I will perform work for. I initially got into doing audio repair as a way to save $$, keep my gear going, maybe pick up nice vintage gear that works otherwise but needs some level of overhaul, or repair to get it going/sounding great again. That morphed into taking in R2R decks, cassette decks, amps, tuners, recaps, calibrations, Setting up tonearms/turntables/cartridges, re-coning speakers.
Far too many Monday Morning Quarterback's in the audio forums today who know it all. How many here have 10K ( very conservatively speaking) invested in a completely equipped test bench, hot air de-soldering station, separate regular soldering, station, dummy loads, regulated & isolated power supplies, the myriad of other hand or test tools that go with doing quality work? How about keeping parts in stock, resistors, diodes, transistors, bulbs, LED's the common part number semi's, capacitors? What's that you say..?.. just order everything piecemeal as needed from Mouser or Digi key, while gear and customers not so patiently wait, things pile, up, angry demanding owners email, text and blow up the phone?
How about experience, does that count for anything? Basic shop supplies, computers, genuine schematics? ( don't get me going about doing quality work with freebees from HiFi-Engine)
Large filter caps are expensive, When you get to the larger main caps 40-60K microfarad 63 and 80v, 50$ + each wholesale. For the better quality low leakage high ESR, high current 105C long life caps are even bigger bucks. Oh you want Nichicon Fine Gold, Wima precision Film, Cornell Dubilier Axial electro's for vintage gear, big bucks. Plus the time to look the proper replacement or upgraded parts up. Then there is diagnostic time, cleaning, labor, taxes. Pulling each board to deep clean, reflowing 100's of solder joints, It all adds up.
Only you can decide what is fair to pay . Don't like the shop's price, shop around more, do your research before committing to shipping a unit to one shop. Then if you don't like their price or the services, you are not stuck with paying their price, or sending it somewhere else on your dime. If you like the amp, plan to keep it forever, (how ever long that is depends on you) expect high quality parts to be used, as well as workmanship, by someone who will be there tomorrow to back it up, expect to pay for it.
In my experience, replacing a failed cap and recapping the rest of an amp is rarely ever that cut and dry. What caused the cap(s) to fail in the first place? Age, another component or hidden issue within the unit? Who pays to locate that? What if its more involved than estimated, who eats that? Things are almost as never as cut and dry in reality as they are described on the forums where all the experts reside. If they were, everyone would be able to repair their own gear, no need to pay someone else to do it.
With so many so-called experts here, I'm surprised someone couldn't offer to pay YOU for the privilege of recapping your amp, or at least do it for you for free.
This is 3-4 hours tops for someone experienced with the equipment and product knowledge. For someone who is not it could be 8 hours though with the right equipment I have no idea how I would spend 8 hours replacing 18 caps. Setting bias takes minutes and you work on something else while it is warming up. Desoldering a cap, cleaning the holes, and resoldering should be a few minutes per cap. Assembly and disassembly time and overhead for parts ordering packing and unpacking must be considered.
Equivalent or given today's parts better components as pointed out is a few hundred dollars at best.
There is overhead for parts and also overhead costs in case they break it. $800 is reasonable, $1300 isn't. That sounds like a premium price for someone to "figure it out".
Building my own I am free to use polypropylene power supply capacitors
instead which have an unlimited shelf life and do not wear out. For the
1kV power supply to my final stage of SET amplification I use
polypropylene capacitors rated at 2400 Volts. It costs little to use
overrated components which will not go bad in the future.
Uh, so how much does it cost you and what's the size, using polypropylene film caps, for a modest power supply (remember the OP's amp is solid state) of maybe 2400uF at 600V (for your tube unit). Now think, 50,000uF at 63V (total) for his solid state amp. I believe some ROM data points will show the impacticaility of this path especially in an existing form factor. Just some quick estimates - among the most affordable PP caps are Wima. A 1uF/100V cap is roughly a buck. Maybe $0.50 in large quantity. (e.g.MKP-10 series). x 50,000. Math seems simple to me! Oh they would also be the size of a carry-on suitcase. G
In Australia a "reputable repair shop" charges $115-$130aud per hr that $80-$90usd. Like
I said it would take a tech that "cares" about a day to do this
properly heat soaked and biased back up. And then there’s the "quality"
parts 16 x large power supply caps https://www.newark.com/cornell-dubilier/381ll682m063a052/cap-6800uf-63v-alu-elec-snap-in/dp/54AH2158...
and around 20 smaller electrolytic caps.
THE PRICE SEEMS FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers George
Now George, there you go bringing data in... can't have that.:-) Surprised how costly those caps are. I buy them quite a bit "better" but yea, they cost! And to the above folks talking about "better" caps - by virtue of being new the large 'lytics will work much better. But we are talking about electrolytic capacitors. These are not audiophile pretty much by definition - they will be paralleled with much better film type caps (i hope!). So will it be better? Than B4, yes. better than new? Likely not much, although we can buy larger caps in the same package today, so maybe in that respect. Will it last 20 years? The ones i did already were 30 years old. CDE are very good caps. G
The cost of repair is why I build my own amplifiers. I have the good fortune of liking SET amplifiers, which are very simple to design. They are easy to repair if anything goes wrong. I notice your describing a problem with power supply capacitors, which too often go bad after a few years. This problem is with high Voltage electrolytic capacitors which have a limited shelf life. Building my own I am free to use polypropylene power supply capacitors instead which have an unlimited shelf life and do not wear out. For the 1kV power supply to my final stage of SET amplification I use polypropylene capacitors rated at 2400 Volts. It costs little to use overrated components which will not go bad in the future. I build my own electronics where I can. One exception is I do not have the manual dexterity it would take to hand wind coils in a moving coil phonograph cartridge.
I had my 1990 Nakamichi PA-7A-II recapped by Jon Soderberg (a threshold stasis expert) and it cost me $1400 +ship! The amp is worth only about $1k used, but I'm the original owner of this mint condition amp. The amp came back absolutely transformed... possibly better than new with all new caps... plus he upgraded some bias trim pots. So I had to ask myself, what other amp could I have gotten for $1500 to beat this Nakamichi? There's nothing new for under 3k that could come close. Plus the amp LOOKS cool. That's worth something to me. By contrast, Bryston recapped my 4B-ST for $600 about 5 years ago. Far more affordable, and very much worth it.
The price is reasonable if high quality parts are used, the work is performed correctly and to a high standard. Another observation about some of the contributors is whatever they do for a living has monetary value and a tech working on audio equipment does not. Apparently some people do not deserve to earn a profit, contribute to society through taxes, or have food, shelter and clothing. Also paying $12 per hour for this kind of work is ridiculous.
Seems a little pricey, but not crazy esp. if you truly received the “goodwill” of years of experience and high quality parts, which you will not be able to confirm for years. I’ve had amps worked on and was thrilled, and had a CD player worked on by the same chap and was much less thrilled when the unit failed for the exact same reason <1 year later. You original question is a moot point if you didn’t pursue estimates beyond this one.
Audiogon is a very strange place. I’m simply asking if this price is in the right range and getting some really strange responses that don’t answer that question.
@jnehma1 This forum is, well, interesting. I’m constantly amazed at the willingness (need?) some have to pontificate. I guess you have to enjoy it for it’s entertainment value. A few do share useful information.
The price for your rebuild sounds high.
I’ve had the best techs rebuild classic amps a few times in the last 30 years and while it is tedious work I wouldn’t call it difficult. In the last 15 years I’ve learned to do it myself and it can be a fun Sunday afternoon project.
One anecdote. I bought a used Threshold S2 Stasis for $650 in 1990. When 1 channel started cutting out I had it repaired by Jon Soderberg. He worked for Threshold back in the day. He charged $450 to replace 1 power cap and 1 wire. Pretty pricey at the time but the amp still sounds great and I’ve recently seen the same amp sell for $2K as they’re getting scarce.
I just had two vintage Electron Kinetics Eagle 400 mono blocks recapped by the firm that Pass Labs recommended, Music Technology https://www.musictechnology.com. Each amp was about a grand to bring up to snuff. Plus shipping. Definitely have pros do the work. You get what you pay for.
To me it is not about the actual cost but the cost down the line. Sure you can get it sent back. That will probably cost something. You can then factor in the frustration of dealing with the same questions over and over again. In the end you may save a couple hundred dollars but is it worth it? You got a certified professional to guarantee their work. You got the extra time and frustration of no amp. You probably could never equal what you will get back for $1300. If you think you can then so be it but $1300 is a pretty low bar for a quality amp. If it were me, I would just get it done and be happy to be listening again.
Lots of opinions here, some good-some not so good. I know you know that your amp is worth more fixed vs. not fixed. I’m a guy who can’t stand to have something I own stay broken, but that’s me-not you. As an insider, I’m able to access the Audiogon Bluebook. It says that your MF 308CR is worth between $1100 and $1300. I would certainly get a second opinion, or consider repairing it and then selling it prior to upgrade. Much depends on how happy you are with the amp, and how a $1300+ repair fits into your budget.
Even if the cost is $500, or so, above other quotes...
You mentioned that they use higher quality parts (than the originals) and if they do quality work you should be good to go for another 20 years.
This said (per your previous postings) you have rarely used the unit for years and years and years.
It would be a great amp to experiment with the new inexpensive Magnapan planers (or any other speaker requiring loads of power), but if you have no use for it why bother?
As per @jafant and @whart, +1 for Bill Thalmann at Music Technology. He's low-key and knowledgeable, and did a fine job fixing my Pass INT-60. But be aware that he's extremely busy and backed-up -- my repair took two months. Can't comment on price as mine was a warranty job.
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