Amp ac cable connection

Thanks, Jafant! Happy listening to you too! :)
I subscribe to what rilbr says about power conditioners.

Wow, lots of false information from some of the members. Like "all power conditioners restrict current flow", " there are only two on the market made for power amplifiers". Some of you guys need to open up your knowledge base.

Any way, I have a Synergistic Powercell 10SE. These are made with no chokes or filters. Aside from how it is made, I really like the unit for source components. I get better detail in all the sound, but especially like the background ambiance, which is normally suppressed. It also separates instruments better than six other conditioners that I have here. For amplifiers, I get better results by keeping the 10SE separate. I do use a Tranquility Base made by Synergistic, under the amp and power box to the amplifier, along with a Shunyata Alpha power cord for noise filtering. I have not tried one of their newer four outlet version of the Powercell on the amps. I would definitely try one of their power cords first, as Synergistic has many to choose from. My experience tells me power cord choice is most important for amplifier sound quality over conditioners. Plug in filters at the receptacle where the amp is plugged in, are ok to very good, depending on the design.
Hope this helps.

Tranceparent Cable is another company who make excellent power products. They don't use chokes,Isolation transformers or skinny circuit board traces that restrict current. They also don't use MOVs and instead use Avalanche Diode that is 1000 times faster than a MOV. The Avalanche Diode doesn't wear out over time like a MOV will.

I've always had my amp directly into wall with a good outlet and a non limiting power cord by that meaning some  Pc's seem to restrict power flow.Tried the other rout and lost some dynamics.Just my 2 cents.

You own a very fine system- johndoe21ro

Happy Listening!

Good to read that you found a solution- psinyc.
Happy Listening!

I heartly recommend IsoTek Sigmas or better (Titan, SuperTitan, etc.). My system:
Raidho Eben X-Centric < AudioQuest Everest DBS 72V < BAT VK-600SE < AudioQuest NRG WEL DBS 72V < AudioQuest Sky XLR DBS 72V < exaSound e20 Mk III DAC w Paul Hynes SR3-12 LPS < Audirvana + 1.5.12/Logitech Media Server + Squeezelite < 2xAudioQuest Diamond USB DBS 72V < UpTone Regen Amber < MacBook Pro i5 13' w Samsung 850EVO 512GB SSD < Mapleshade Platforms < Omicron Harmonic Stabilizer & Gold Evolution SE < IsoTek Sigmas GII w IsoTek Elite EVO3 < Furutech FT-SWS (R) < HiFi Tuning Supreme 3
No dynamic limitation at all! :)

Thnx- and there is a new synergistic research that loos good

Just to conclude my personal findings on this subject, i have my amp directly into the wall. The greater soundstaging and detail on most recrdings was too irresistable. Now i need to upgrademy wall socket. Does it ever end? I think not

I've been a firm believer in good power filtering since I moved into my Chicago apartment as a kid and couldn't listen to my rig due to the line noise or watch my projector due to the power fluctuations. My first piece of real gear was a power conditioner and it was a revelation. I recently have put my dream system together and spoken to the Benchmark, Pass and SVS and all of them say to not use a power conditioner because their internal filtering is so good. I listened and can't hear the slightest hiss or pop out of my 20.1 Maggies, Kinnergetic or SVS subs. I did want surge protection and have bought The Yalu Bulala from Blue Circle Audio which I put in the outlet of each circuit and it will sacrifice itself, take a lightening strike, and save your amps. Since it is in another socket on the outlet it is non current limiting as well. I also bought an FX2 X0E line conditioner for my smaller sources which are not current hungry. Blue Circle also makes a Sillycone Filter which draws the noise out of the circuit if it is plugged in near the amp (also non current limiting) if you have an extremely noisy environment. These products aren't going to win any industrial design awards but they work great and don't break the bank. Just my 2 cents. . . 

Good luck! 

So now we have four (Tara Labs, Synergistic Research, Audience, and Audioguest Niagara) that have been recommended as non-current-limiting options.

I find with the recent addition of 2 Audioquest Niagara 1000's for my audio system with excellent results.  I am using Audioquest power cords as well.  In fact I am using my second one for a pair of Martin/Logan SL-3 electrostatic speakers.  Using An Audioquest NRG 100 from the wall to the conditioner and a pair of NRG 10's from the Niagara 1000 to the speakers.  Previously I was using an inferior power conditioner and ordinary power cords to the speakers.  The changes were simply incredible.  Anyone with a speaker such as my Martin/Logan's, which themself need to be plugged into current to power the subwoofer portion of their speaker will need a combination such as I have to achieve the full potential of their speaker system.  But, again the addition of some of the very latest power conditioners, such as the latest offerings from Audioquest really work.  On most audio products, as well-unlike many of todays competing products that will work for some products but not for others.  Anyway the Niagara only runs $1000, plus it has spike protection s well.  That is all I can say on the matter, except they really work.

benjie.....   I've never had any luck with conditioners either.  They all change the sound but include warts I can't live with

I agree with ebm that the Audience unit he has(so do I) isn't limiting anything on my Agostino amp. Just sounds fantastic. I'll leave the science to others. 

benjie,

I think knownothing said it best. Hopefully you will understand that one.

I will add that of reviewer friend of mine asked some of the proprietors of top equipment companies at RMAF (that did not offer power enhancement products in their line) why they did not use power enhancement products in their show systems and they told him that they felt that it was more truthful to show their equipment sans power enhancement gear so as to not mislead potential buyers regarding the sound quality of their gear. All polled agreed that the best power enhancement products would further improve the sound of their equipment had they used them.

The last year I attended RMAF (2012), the Synergistic Research room won the "Best Sound" award from The Absolute Sound and the "Best of Show" award from Marc Michelson plus a very favorable mention from Stereophile.
   
Dave  

Not everyone agrees that power line noise is not problematic and therefore not in need of attention, including equipment designers, with some form of line conditioning built into at least some high end amplifiers (one example: http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/407ayre/index.html#C4GXsiFsx3lHdP7s.97). Perhaps why at least some high end systems are better able to navigate potentially dirty hotel power relatively unscathed in demonstrations, dunno. I will say that I have seen power line conditioning included as part of some very good sounding demo systems - maybe that was the Shunyata room;-)

But the fact remains that some audiophiles actually prefer the sound of their gear in their home fed from power conditioners... even their amps. Listening and preference are profoundly subjective. That is why there is a market for different audio solutions, with different tube and solid state amplifiers highlighting different aspects of performance, some on the soft and warm side and others on the crisp and fast side. And as described above, different conditioning products have different approaches and produce different results.

I agree with many here that power conditioners change the sound of their gear, and perhaps especially their amplifier. I also agree that that change is not always for the better. I disagree that power line noise is not a potential problem in some instances. The most important point is how does your system sound to you, and what sounds more like a real performance in your listening environment. While experience and advice given here are all valuable data points, the definitive answer can only be determined in the end by the individual listener in their listening environment. A very long winded way of saying try your amp with and without conditioning.

Some basic information on power line and common mode current noise for interest.

http://www.arrl.org/power-line-noise

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274125

http://m.ecmweb.com/content/troubleshooting-electrical-noise-0

and for fun, if you want to try to detect noise yourself:

http://www.w8ji.com/power_line_noise.htm

"Power conditioners restrict power flow. That is just the nature of the beast. I don't care who makes it they all work basically the same way. Get rid of it."

"It doesn't sound right to you because you are use to hearing the music through a power conditioner that softens the bass and shrinks the soundstage and takes the edge off the highs."

benjie,

Not important to meet my criteria, only to qualify your experience with power conditioners so as not to unintentionally mislead. Your amplifiers more than meet any reasonable criteria for excellence and are VHC models, like mine. That, combined with the power conditioner models you listed, tell me that your observations are not surprising.

My point is that there are models available today that use completely different technologies and produce entirely different results. The two that I know of that avoid the shortcomings you have experienced are recent top models from Tara Labs and Synergistic Research that also deliver very positive results in noise floor reduction and soundstaging improvement. Most probably there are others. Everyone’s opinion of which ones work best is obviously valid and helpful, even if contemptuous, but dismissing people’s positive experiences with SOTA power enhancement, well, not so much.

Dave

Wall...get a good outlet (Furutech or Oyeida)

Benjie, everybody comes to this discussion with different power service, gear and ears.  While there may be an absolute sound many are seeking, there are many paths to get there. Power conditioning is one of them and has it's uses and benefits. I choose not to use it on my amp in my home system with a dedicated line and breaker, but it is a must in my office to get the most out of my system there, and for family members who live in large apartment buildings (in my opinion).  As with all things in this hobby, YMMV and careful listening is the proof in each instance.

benji

Through psinyc own listing session he is supporting what I am saying. Power conditioners restrict the full potential of your equipment

I'm not sure what you mean by "full potential." I can tell you - with measurements to support it - that faulty AC power can limit the performance of audio equipment - especially power amplifiers - and that the right power conditioner can restore performance. That's especially true when the AC line has a bad power factor.

This isn't mumbo-jumbo, but very basic stuff.

and also psinyc, it's not just the outlet you use, but all the outlets on that line, and really all in the home...Charles Hansen of Ayre, commented here a bunch of years ago, that one of the best things you could do for your music system was to unplug your TV and surround sound system...mine is on a different line, and I didn't want it to help because it's a nuisance to do, but it made a nice improvement...

like the OP said, he prefers comfort to excitement for music listening...

So, Benjie, since what the rest of us hear does not agree with your opinion, it is our minds that are at fault. There is a word for that I think.

Provide a list of the AC enhancement products that you have owned to add credibility to your opinion.

Here is mine in chronological order:

1) API Power Wedge - reduced dynamics to amps, benign otherwise
2) Monster THS 5000: reduced dynamics to amps, benign otherwise
3) Chang Lightspeed CLS6600ISO - reduced dynamics to amps, lower noise floor to other components
4) Furman ITReference20i: slight reduction of noise floor, benign otherwise excepting VHC amps
5) PS Audio Power Plant Premiere: very audible reduction of noise floor, benign otherwise excepting VHC amps
6) SR Powercell 10 mkII: significant reduction of noise floor, expanded dynamics and soundstage, no impact on current flow to amps, including Krell FPB-600c
7) SR Powercell 10 UEF/FEQ: incredible reduction in noise floor, greatly expanded dynamics and soundstage, no impact on current flow to amps, including Krell FPB-600c

Notes:
1) The first four used "passive" chokes and MOVs in the circuitry that limited ultimate current flow to varying extents.
2) A four year period occurred between the two Powercells (6 & 7) due to financial constraints. More than enough time for my ears/mind/whatever to loose its power-conditioner-corrupted aural memory.
3) Krell FPB-600c tested by JA of Stereophile to produce 152 amps of peak current and 6000w/ch @1ohm.
4) Units 3-7 were plugged into dedicated 30-amp line and extensively compared to 30-amp dedicated line directly.

Dave

benjie

... With the power cable plugged directly into the wall you are hearing your equipments full potential ...

That wouldn’t be true if the voltage is too high, or too low, for the amplifier to work properly. What about power factor? If the AC service has bad power factor, that could rob the amplifier of the current it needs to reach rated output. What if there’s hash or distortion on the AC line? Not all amplifiers are equally able to filter such noise.

The value of a power conditioner depends a lot not only on the conditioner itself, but on the quality of the AC line and the system’s other components.

dlcockrum

... I am talking about the products that serve as intermediaries between the wall receptacle and the equipments’ power cords that claim to provide surge protection via sacrificial MOVs (90%+ of them I estimate) ...

MOV devices get a bad rap here. Without wading into that controversy, an MOV does not inherently limit normal current.  (Obviously, they are designed to limit surges.) Some AC protection or conditioning devices are blamed for having a negative effect on audio quality, so many audiophiles blame "current limiting" for that. In practice, most don't actually limit current when properly used.

What constitutes proper use is also the subject of some debate. For components such as isolation xformers, I wouldn't use them at more than half of their rated capacity, especially when connected to a power amplifier.

I agree i have Audience 6TSSDOX with 20 amp breaker 2400 watts I'm using Pass 350.8 350 per ch sounds a little more dynamic into the wall but detail,definition,bass detail,stage,highs are worse.Good call and great observation i agree 100% enjoy good luck.

It is not a dedicated outlet but the pc is plugged into the wall and the other outlet is vacant.

Nice post, psinyc. Glad your Shunyata is working well for you.

Just out of curiosity, do you have a dedicated line feeding that receptacle?

Dave

Hi cleeds,

I should have been more specific re: surge protectors. I am talking about the products that serve as intermediaries between the wall receptacle and the equipments’ power cords that claim to provide surge protection via sacrificial MOVs (90%+ of them I estimate).

Never had a surge via the electrical line damage equipment in my 45 years in audio, twelve of these in "storm-from-hell"/hurricane prone southeast Texas. Not to say extensive/expensive protection at the meter/breaker box is not a good idea. To the contrary, I think investing in power upgrades as early as possible in the AC chain probably results in a lot of sonic and power benefits to the whole house.

The most likely current surge damage occurs via TV cable IME. Happened to me when I first moved to Texas years ago while living in an apartment, taking out a brand new CRT TV. If a system contains a TV cable input (HT) like mine does, surge damage to all connected components is possible.

Best to you cleeds,
Dave

dlcockrum

The place for a surge protector is on your TV cable line (only, unless you like choking the current flow to your audio system).

Sorry, but this is mistaken. The notion that all surge protectors are "choking the current flow to your audio system" is simply misinformed.

A surge protector on your cable TV line offers no protection to your audio equipment. It also offers no protection from a lightning strike.

To protect from a lightning surge - which is clearing the most dangerous to electronic equipment - you can't do better than a Type 1 device. The Leviton 50240-MSA is probably as good as any for this use, and it does not limit current. Oddly, not all utilities allow Type 1 devices to be installed in their meter panels.

A Type 2 surge protector will also not limit current.

Some Type 3 devices do limit current, but not nearly so much as many audiophiles suspect. This can be shown by measuring the device's output under load.

yes shunyata

@Psinyc, hmmm.... It seems your Triton PC is ""SHUNYATA Research"" power conditioner. and not a Synergistic research!!!
 
@dicockrum, Once again you are right... BTW, My powercell was one of those earliest version and seems new versions like 10UEF are phenomenal. I am considering to buy one of those 10UEFs. My MPC mods were done by Michael Spallone, whom is a nice guy to deal with.

@stereo5, Hydra 2 could handle higher current but it still be a current-limited PC. Compared to other Hydra PCs, it doesn't have a surge protection feature.

@markus1299, PS-10 seems to be a good PC. However, be careful on loading too much charge on it. It could only handle up to 1500Watts! which means it is a current limited PC.

cheers...

Hi psinyc,

Synergistic Research never made a Triton pc to my knowledge.  Perhaps you mean to say Shunyata Research Triton? 

Best to you psinyc,
Dave

As suggested earlier try it both ways and go with the one that sounds best. Trust your ears!

it is a synergisitic research triton pc

Crickets. Hmmm.

henrycai, today, 11/27/16 on the "power conditioner" thread:

"I had 2 different regenerating units from P S Audio in the past, I found them a waste of money, the gentleman bought my last premier PS Audio unit said it did not do anything for him either.....that’s why after awhile you see there big ac regenerating units 50% Off......I can buy there $5,000 units n smaller units now from there dealers for 50% off, I do not feel there worth it......................................................"

I guess opinions vary, markus...

Dave

Hi markus1299,

Which Powercell did you have?

Dave

You guys need to check out the PS-10 from  PS Audio. Non current limiting and way more better than the powercell I sold. It is a power regenerator.