Ahhh--Problem solved. Adding a REL sub-bass unit...


I'm wondering how many audiophiles have given up on loudspeakers preamturely, or have gone down the rabbit hole of cable swapping to "fix" an issue with their speakers.  

I grew up hating subwoofers and home theatre.  I still haven't come around fully to home theatre.  I've warmed up though.  I've had my own issues with otherwise great loudspeakers, including a pair of Klipsch Forte IIIs.  I was very frustrated as I'm feeding them from a respected tube integrated, I've tried them with a 300B amp, and I've toiled over positioning.  

The issue that I was having was the mids and highs were dominating in my room--despite the size of the woofer and passive radiator. Some recordings were just too bright.  Sometimes I felt the speaker, however "alive" and dynamic was not imaging well, needed soundstage help, and so on.  

I hate to say the REL T9i I threw in the mix today is a panacea because there's always stuff to tweak.  Yet I have experienced this before with a Sumiko subwoofer.  Adding one to the mix and dialing it in so that it's barely audible has brought everything into focus.  Everything is more relaxed and energetic at the same time.  

I'd say that the REL is a room tuning device above all.  I have a larger room (I think it's 15 wide, 24 long and 10 high--in feet).   I'm not sure how much I'd have to spend or what different choices would solve this otherwise.  From a guy that used to reject subwoofers out of hand (my bias came from the 90s home theatre craze) I think that they might be necessary in the lion's share of systems with the lion's share of speakers.  To say, "you don't need a sub" with speakers might be true depending on your room, but I also think in most situations you are missing out on what they can do for so many criteria that are not necessarily in keeping with adding bass--e.g. soundstage, focus, imagine, fullness, taming treble, etc.). 

Finally, I really wish that I could try some other brands as many audiogon members recommended so many respectable names.  I ultimately went with REL because of its philosophy, my similar experience with a Sumiko sub (within the family of REL or somehow related), and the high frequency input connections. 
128x128jbhiller
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Same experience. I started with 1 REL Strata III and migrated to two REL 218 subs for my system which uses a high efficiency single driver and 300Bs. I highly recommend trying dual REL sub woofers in stereo setup. If you like what 1 REL sub does, you will definitely appreciate two in stereo mode.
I have Maggies (3.6) for speakers and they need a lot of current, provided, and also a sub to really sing.

I tried them without a sub, but the system bloomed when one was added.  

Just one guy’s experience.
I have Legacy Audio Focus 20/20 speakers (3 12" drivers) and ran those for quite a while without a subwoofer, using my subwoofers only for home theater thinking I didn't "need" a sub. 

I decided to try adding my two SVS SB13 Ultras to the system and am glad I did.  What they add more than anything is a sense of realism, the tactile feeling you get from the bass coursing through your body when you hear live music.  I could be perfectly happy with the bass from my speakers alone, but adding the subs into the mix elevated my enjoyment level. 
There is still a prejudice against subwoofers in certain audiophile quarters, and there always has been. Subwoofers are often seen as something best left in Home Cinema circles.

For decades we have been told that there are often serious, insurmountable integration issues, with both existing speakers and the room.

Then it’s been argued that since low bass is less directional you only need one subwoofer. That needs to be proved as it sounds a bit like a fudge.

Finally there’s always the option of buying bigger speakers which can offer decent <50Hz performance.

However, a rethink might be needed if we consider the benefits of removing strain off the main speakers and the amplifier by considered the use of a sub. It’s definitely an area that demands more attention.

It would be great to hear of more experiences, good or bad. I know that my PC speakers would sound insipid without their sub.
Subs definitely have their place and I am reluctantly becoming agreeable that two are needed - some room arrangements more than others.
I disagree that "no system" is complete without a subwoofer. Some systems are so rich that adding a sub is just too much.
JL audio makes some very good subwoofers that have the required specs and features for optimum integration.  
Another superior musical sub that provides high-level hookup are the Rythmiks containing the PEQ-series plate amp. The XLR-series amps do not, they are line-level only. Most Rythmik models are available with either plate amp.
I agree.  And two is better than one.  REL makes great subs.  The high level connection is, in most cases, the way to go.

I just posted in another forum about how I dialed in one sub (T5i) for my system/room.  Essentially, put the sub in your listening position, put on some bass heavy music, then move around the room (you may have to crawl to get your ears at the right level) until you find a spot where the bass sounds good.  Then put your sub there, and go back to your listening position and see (hear) how it sounds.  This will work for your listening position, but if you want the whole room to sound good you will likely need two to cancel out the low frequency resonance peaks and pressurize the room more evenly).

DSP and acoustic room treatments are also good options, but can get expensive and a bit tedious to dial in (plus room treatments may not fit in with your decor, etc.).  And if you are playing vinyl (and why wouldn't you with a 300B and Klipsch speakers), would you really want to digitize your analog signal (it would probably sound great, but it kind of goes against the "gestalt" of your old-school tube and horn system)?

I'm not so sure if adding subs will yield better imaging or "focus" or tame treble at all, but it will certainly add deeper bass and more "fullness" to the sound.  A cheap experiment would be to try out a Schiit Loki ($150.00).  If you don't like it, send it back for a small re-stocking fee.  You'll probably keep it.
It only gets  better with...2 REL subs. I agree with those who say ANY speaker system can benefit with properly dialed in subs.
 
 
Ahh you are correct and Paul McGowan recommends using the subs high level inputs ( speakers wires in and out) of the sub so it takes on the same characteristics as your other speakers and provides a more seamless sound.
you’re not alone in your opinion. Paul McGowan from PS Audio fame feels no speaker system is complete without a sub actually recommends using two. He also likes the REL subs. I’m sure many would argue otherwise but he and others make a pretty good argument for using a sub to augment even floor standers. As of late, I’ve been contemplating trying one in my system. Don’t want to spend an arm and leg so may try a less expensive in-home trial with those companies that provide that service.