So many of our perceptions in this often eccentric hobby are influenced by which way the wind is blowing and the phase of the moon during any particular listening moment.
"Row, row, row your boat, merrily...."
"Row, row, row your boat, merrily...."
After nearly 20 years, I left Magnepan and went ProAc
Listened to proac d48r's a few weeks ago and fell in love at first listen. After a couple of days I got my wife to sign my "permission slip" and took the plunge and they now reside where my 1.6 once stood. You see, I've never heard a speaker literally mesmerize me and engage me like this before. Sure the Maggie's have a huge image and soundstage and transparency, but these Proacs simply sound more like a real event, with dynamics and palpability, with a more refined and true sound. The images are much more dense.
I only have 48 hours on them so they are nowhere near their final voice, but they are breaking in nicely. The manual says they require a lengthy break in. I pulled out my old marantz cd-5000 to do the break in honors and will run these straight for a week or two and then taper off with normal listening.
One thing I dont care for are the spikes. They have these little slits that aid in tightening, but no tool to go around them, so I can't get a good tightening with just my fingers.......so the spikes jiggle. When I check I can hear the spike and lock but chatter, and this is not helping my stability or sound. Any sugesstions to tighten them right would be helpful. Thanks. Cheers to a new chapter! Wanted to share my excitement with you. So grateful and never thought I would have speakers like This. It feels like a dream!
I only have 48 hours on them so they are nowhere near their final voice, but they are breaking in nicely. The manual says they require a lengthy break in. I pulled out my old marantz cd-5000 to do the break in honors and will run these straight for a week or two and then taper off with normal listening.
One thing I dont care for are the spikes. They have these little slits that aid in tightening, but no tool to go around them, so I can't get a good tightening with just my fingers.......so the spikes jiggle. When I check I can hear the spike and lock but chatter, and this is not helping my stability or sound. Any sugesstions to tighten them right would be helpful. Thanks. Cheers to a new chapter! Wanted to share my excitement with you. So grateful and never thought I would have speakers like This. It feels like a dream!
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Thanks for the update. I'll be interested in your results of height adjustment, as well as rake angle. My eyes and ears are at the same height as the tweeter on my D38's (by chance, not planned), but I haven't played with rake angle. There are many theories on why a system can sound so different from day to day, but for me I think it's the varying sound quality and type of music that I listen to from day to day. However, I recently bought some SHM-CD's and have been listening to them exclusively for the last two weeks. System sounded perhaps better than ever last week and early this week, yet the last couple of days not so good. Strange, same exact recordings. I wonder if some of it is due to us personally - being tired, noise exposure during the day, or road noise on cummute home, etc. Some people think that power quality changes from day to day, and time of day; not sure about that one. Take note of what you're listening to when your system is sounding good or bad, and see if your music is one of the variables. |
What soundocity outriggers did you order? I've had my studio 148s for about 14 months now and it still seems like they incrementally improve each month with possibly more break in and refinement. Plus, I just put some Signal Cable MagicPower power cables on my preamp and phono preamp - great addition! I usually leave tuner, amp and preamp on 100%. Tuner is the usual source all day unless there is a specific listening session going on. |
An update. The speakers have about 375 hours on them. They are really starting to come into their own. It's amazing how detailed they are without being bright. The detail is really at the edges and not "force fed" like the Maggie's. the proacs have a very sophisticated presentation, that has to be heard in the flesh to fully understand. When you listen to a Maggie, that spooky transparency and super speed gets you hook line and sinker. The proacs don't portray the music that way, it's a warmer,thicker, (in a good way) more musical presentation. I understand now what it means when people say how they play the music within the music. The speakers have been totally all over the place with their sound. Some nights great, some nights not so great, and some nights downright crappy! Tonight, however, they sound more than great. I just down understand how they change from night to night, but they do. 200 more hours and I will start to,shut down system at night and use the system normally again. Then we shall see if they improve over the next couple of months incrementally. I have ordered the soundocity outriggers as per the suggestion in this thread. My current seating arrangement is not allowing me to get the tweeter at proper ear level. Right now, my is level with the top of the surround of the top of the woofer, way to high above the tweeter. I don't have the ability to set rake angle because the stock spikes don't have enough travel to compensate for my uneven floor AND adjust for rake angle. Hopefully the outriggers will help me get better imaging and better tone. I can't imagine my current ear to tweeter height mismatch helping me. I think I read you can have your ear 3 inches higher or lower than the tweeter and still be within acceptable alignment. With my ear where it is, I'm way more than three inches too high. I'm hoping a whole new dimension will come to life once the outriggers get here. |
My Proac Studio 140MK II are in diagnal placement too the right speaker is closer to me than the left one it’s a very odd configuration but this is the best "sweet spote" I could find in my room the soundstage is huge and the sound is very smooth and transparent ,when I put them first at the classic triangle configuration to me with a slight toe in the soundstage is narrow and the sound became muddy and aggressive. Very strange indeeded. Don’t worry after long break in and mooving them to a bigger space your Proac will be amazing.be patient ! |
I think I may have found the most ideal placement in my less than ideal room. I went with a diagnal placement and the soundstage exploded. As well, the response is much smoother. Not perfect, but much better. It is so much better than the short or long wall configurations that’s it’s not even a contest in my room. I’m able to get a finely tuned and focused center image with much better timbre and overall tonality this way. While I still am not getting 100% out of them, I can finally hear what led me to take the plunge on them in the first place. Now instead of feeling disheartened, I can now focus on racking some hours on them. I’m a little over 200 hours of non stop playing. I listened to Charles Mingus and was delighted. I can’t wait till I hear them at beyond 500 hours and months down the road once they have "matured". They have a certain delicacy, and refinement that even a Maggie fan should hear. They are more expensive than Maggie’s, but they sound it too. There is a certain magic of Maggie’s, but these proacs show that there are other wizards out there designing speakers. Maggie’s are a gateway for a lot of us into high quality sound, many of us start off with them, because of their incredible value, i get it. But you owe it to yourself tombe opened minded and to understand that they are not the be all and all, just because they were your first love. |
audiolover718 There is an expression in England, I think that is where your new speakers are made, and that is " stuff the bung hole " . They take anything like a cloth rag and stuff it in the port. Should give you a more controlled bass with less resonance in your room. I remember when I was younger I had a new girl friend coming over to my apartment, presumable for dinner, and I used my old girl friends panties to " stuff the bung hole ", on my speakers. Not sure how much the sound improved but I avoided any potential problems, at least for that evening. PS. hope that is not too much information.......... |
Audiolover718, do you live in the Portland, Oregon area by chance? I've owned the Studio 140 mkII and Response D28 in the past, and now using D38. I have a VERY similar room size and is a bonus room above the garage, but has 8ft straight ceiling. My room has issues with treble reflection, but seem to absorb bass; rarely if ever too much bass. Are you using a sub, and if so, have you tried turning it off? Seems like you have a strong wall and/or floor interaction. Your speakers are almost equidistant from the back and side walls; try moving them further from one of these walls so they're not equal distances. Is your room carpeted? Loose spikes not coupling the speakers to the subfloor? Try without spikes? I don't have experience with putting speakers (with spikes) on a separate plinth, but maybe someone else could tell us what impact this has on bass (more or less?). Try moving them closer to the walls; could be firmer bass if closer to wall? My D38's aren't that far from the walls and they image extremely well; they are 9ft apart due to projector screen and wide audio cabinet between them. Do NOT use the factory jumpers, especially if they're still using the solid metal rod. My D38's are toed in quite a bit, can barely see down the inside wall of speakers, to minimize wall reflections. This does impart more bass, but works well in my room. Maybe no or minimal toe-in for you; and move speakers farther apart? Is anything about the rest of your system geared towards more bass, for the maggies, possibly causing too much bass now? What speaker cables are you using? Can you borrow a different amp or integrated amp from your dealer to rule this out? If you live in the greater Portland area, you're welcome to listen to my system, and we could also try my integrated amp on your system. Your speakers are very nice and I don't think the size of your room is the issue, nor is break-in a factor for this particular problem. |
The spikes that have a little jiggle? That may allow your speakers to breath. Lock them down? And, you may find the sound becomes a bit choked. I discovered this years ago when I locked down my speakers from wall mounts. Then hung them from chains instead, and the sound just bloomed. Not everything we are told is reality. |
I have the ProAc K6's and they are amazing! On mine there is a pairing of a nut and spike. The nut is used to secure the spike by tightening it against the base with tension against the thread of the spike. That permits adjustment on all four corners and securely holds each spike in place (no rattling or movement) That set up works great. |
"milpai ...have you moved your D40Rs to a larger room? I keep visiting your system page and ogle at those speakers. How is the bass in that room? " @milpai Thanks for the kind words. They have been in the same room since I bought them. The one thing I did that really improved the bass was replacing my Quicksilver V-4 amps with an Aesthetix Atlas amplifier. The bass is controlled and natural sounding with power when it is in the music. A bigger room would be better, but not possible for me. I do have a dedicated room so that is a plus. Best Regards, Jim Perry |
There is no way I can be convinced that a Proac speaker would sound more immediate than a well setup Magnepan. I owned 2 Proac speakers and they are very good, great detail, imaging, soundstaging, etc. But as properly setup large Magnepan on the correct electronics is totally on another level. I do not feel you had found the right amp for your particular model Magnepan. |
All good advice above. I'd like to add that--regardless of whether you end up with outriggers, spikes, pucks, herbies, or other isolation--getting a bottom ported speaker up further from the floor should help control bass. Raising the tweeter also improved imaging for me. I experimented on the cheap with different lengths bolts from the hardware store on my Studio 148. However, even with this tweak, one amp I tried so over-emphasized the bass they were essentially unlistenable. It's possible this is the issue, as what sounded balanced with the Maggies may not be ideal such a different style of speaker. Good luck. |
@milpai my room size is 10*13 feet the Proac Studio 140MK II works perfectly in my listening room,I did consider the D30R but I am afraid that it’s some kind of a degrade mooving from 2.5 way speakers to 2 way ones. I agree with @axeis1 that the ProAcs sound better when placed closer to each other place them more than 10 feet and the soundstage start to collapse and the sound will be less transparent and muddy. The great thing about the 140 that they’re not too fussy you can just throw them in the room and make a little adjustments latter on. The big problem with all Proac’s speakers that they do need very longgggggg break-in period it took me about 6 month to open them up and about a year for full break in but after that the sound is amazing. Moreover if I don’t listen to the Proac’s couple of days they sound is terrible: bright and harsh and do need at least 3-5 hours break in to recover again. I suspect the successor the Studio 148 is no longer in production because Proac removed it from their official website. |
I can understand your delight with the D48R - they are a very musical speaker. I sold a pair just 2 weeks ago to a client and he loves them. They are a similar price here as the Magnepan 3.7i - which is a very tough act to beat. Your old 1.6's are more akin to the Proac Studio series, like a Studio 148, which are a similar price. Enjoy... the Proacs have a superb musicality that makes them rather addictive to listen to. FYI - I am an importer and handle Proac, Magnepan, GoldenEar etc. |
@itzhak1969, How big/small is your room? Have you considered the D30Sr? I was quite impressed with these speakers at the AXPONA this year. @axeis1 indicates that the ProAcs sound better when placed closer to each other. The ProAcs were setup thus, at AXPONA. Now this is something that concerns me. Because if I get them, I can place them 5 feet from back wall and 3 feet from side wall and have about 8 feet between them. @jperry, have you moved your D40Rs to a larger room? I keep visiting your system page and ogle at those speakers. How is the bass in that room? |
To the Op, you want at least 4ft from the back of the speaker to the wall behind. Not from the face of the speaker 4ft from the back side. Start with 7ft between the speakers, inside edge to edge. Then move closer. ProAc's are awesome in a near field setup and it helps remove some of the room from the equation. And lastly tow them in so you can just see a sliver of the inside edge. And don't get to worked up they really do need many hours to break in. |
Agree with Dill on the Herbies Audio Labs Gliders. A friend had big Proacs (can't remember the model), didn't like the spikes and asked me for help. I was surprised at the improvement in sound with the Gliders. My friend is happy. Also, based on lots of personal experience, I would highly recommend any Herron Audio product. |
@audiolover718
Thanks for the compliment. I did some measuring and here are the results. The speakers are located on the short wall in the front of the room. The floor is engineered wood over concrete, and the walls are drywall on studs, or over masonry. The back of the speakers are 36 inches from the front wall of the room and the outside of the speakers are 20 inches from the side walls. They are toed in about one inch. The inside of the speaker cabinets are about 72 inches apart. My ears are approximately 8 - 9 feet from the front of the speaker cabinet and the distance from my head to the back wall is about 3 - 4 feet. I am sure your setup will vary from this, but hopefully this will help. Your speakers will need to break in so be patient. I bought demo speakers so they were already broken in for the most part. I don't know where you are located, but feel free to look me up if you are in the Phoenix, AZ area. Let me know if I can be of any further assistance. Best Regards, Jim Perry |
@audiolover718 my understanding is that the 1.7i or 3.7i are a lot better than the x.6 ones (I had 1.5's before getting 3.7i's). Anyway, enjoy your new speakers - there are lots of high end speakers out there these days, and I sometimes wish I had multiple houses to put a dozen different speakers in. |
I was about to upgrade my Proac Studio 140MKII to the D48R but cancelled it because I realized that I don’t have the space for them my listening room is too small the D48R need big space to breath , it’s like putting an elephant in porcelain store.You just have to be patient till finishing the basement in the future . |
Jperry-what a beautiful system!! Are your speakers on the long or short wall? Mine are currently on the short wall in the dimensions above. My room is a bonus room above the garage. The floor is carpet over suspended plywood. The walls are drywall and have that hollow lightweight ring. Grrr. I also have and 8 foot ceiling which has a barnyard top, which extends from the middle of each sidewall at an angle until it reaches the ceiling and 1/5 the way in so in essence the full 8 feet is only roughly 3/5 of the ceiling. I hope that makes sense. It’s a shame because my equipment is good, but the sound I’m getting isn’t. I have to tune this stuff asap. BTW how far out is the minimum distance requirement with the dappolito design? How far away are you listening? Are you sittng up against the front wall? When I’m anywhere but the searing position I don’t get that horrible mid bass nasaly hump. It’s completely coloring the sound, and not in a good way. I will definitely look into to the sumiko master set. |
This is is going to be harder than I thought. Right now these are in a smaller room 13.75x16x75. It's been a few days now, and I've been fiddling with placement. These are dynamos. They are getting 550 Watts a side, and The midbass is too strong around 200-800hz and is booming and killing the image. It's not noticeable all the time, but it's hard to turn them up because the just sound so boomy. Yes I know the room is small, but I bought them anyway with the thiought of finishing the basement in the future and moving down there. I have to make due for now.. any suggestions? Woofer face about 3.75 out from rear wall, 3.5 feet from side wall, listening position about 11.25 feet away from speaker. Whatever the minimum distance I can get away with with these with the MTM array? I have a heavenly speaker in a hellacious room. It's got that plasticy midbass boom box resonance I remember from being a kid. I want to tackle this head on with the placement, and then look at treatments to help the bass. Sometimes it sounds good sometimes I want to shut it off. I know they are still breaking in, but I doubt this weird bass is gonna fix it self with break in. |
Maggies are nothing special. +1 Jafant, I REALLY get the appeal. But going back 30 years (2.6) to the present (3.7s) and many in between, great value speakers but they have too many shortcomings I personally could never live with. btw Schubert IS Diana Krall 6'6" tall? One of those things I DON'T like, an exaggeration of image size + require WAY too much power. Enjoy your proac d48r' Audiolover, great choice! |
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Any sugesstions to tighten them right would be helpful.
" Get an assortment of rubber O rings from an auto parts store. If they're not sure what kind, tell them to give you the ones that go on A/C lines. Pick a size that best fits your feet and use it like you would a washer. Having the rubber o ring in between the 2 hard metal surfaces will allow you to get a much tighter fit by hand. It works the same way the o ring on an oil filter does. |
I love my ProAc Studio 148s and experience the same realness that you mention, especially with double reeds and strings. Try some Soundocity SEV9 outriggers. Is what I use under my 148s. Better stability and you use a bolt and washer to mount the outrigger to the factory spike location so a gentle socket tighten is a perfect way to make sure everything is tight (but not too tight). Plus, with the "from the top" adjustable spike design of the SEV9 outriggers, placement is easy and then just screw in the spikes. You can see pictures of this setup and my system details on my system page. |
Audiolover718, Many say that Proac speakers sound best with tubes, and they certainly do sound great. I have used my current and past Proac speakers with a variety of tube amplifiers and a few solid state amps as well. IME the best sounding amp I have used with mine is the Aesthetix Atlas, which is a hybrid amp consisting of a tube front end and solid state output devices. I think the ability of the solid state output to control and power the bass is a big plus. I would guess that your system sounds great with the ARC amplifier. Let them break in for a while and have fun optimizing your system. Best Regards, Jim Perry |
Gnostalgick- Thanks. They will need some finessing to harness the sound from them. I’m using a an arc ds450 with them, and it is immensely powerful with a 90db efficient speaker. 550 wpc into 4 ohms-I needed it for the Maggies, not so sure it’s necessary with the proacs. It’s hard being patient, but I can hear the glimmer or greatness peaking through. With 3 days on them, they aren’t cooked at all. They don’t sound anywhere near as good as the dealer setup, and that is my ultimate goal. It’s a whole new endeavour now, but one I’m excited to partake in. |