07-08-11: Audiofeil
>>07-08-11: Inna
Michael Fremer says Ypsilon preamp is the best there is<<
So what.
He gets one vote like everybody else.
Not that I agree one way or another with anything that MF has to say, but I would say that not all votes are created equal. Listening to many pieces of equipment over many years is a valuable part of having one's opinion matter more - in theory; though it does leave open the question of whether you have the same listening tastes and preferences, but all things being equal, depth of experience and exposure does lend more weight to a person's opinion. In fact I value your opinion to the extent that you have many years of experience with various pieces of gear --- that is worth something. |
IMO, being a current McIntosh amp owner and having listened to Accuphase numerous times.Accuphase hands down,no comparison.What I do like about Mac is the re-sell value on the secondary market. |
The term NASA grade absolutely has to do with the quaility of parts and the rigid extreme conditions they can experience, it does not mean the same parts that are used in control panels in space ships, but the type of dielectric materials used in transitors, capacitors, circuit boards and their skin material. When combined, these type of materials and parts are much more efficient when dealing with severe heat and severe cold and have much lower defect rates and higher tolerance values. NASA is a term that reflects the type of high quality over the years that the military and aerospace apply to parts that result in the highest quality for communications, sound and observation. For example, Solen, Wima, Blackgate and Vishay are considered NASA grade quality and classification but are not used in military or aerospace programs but for high end audio products only. Again, its a classification term that applies to quality only. Besides, we are getting off subject, this thread is about Mcintosh and Accuphase. |
Audiozen, Does NASA use a lot of audio parts? To NASA, NASA-grade parts means reliability, not necessarily sound quality, and the best grade of parts is effectively a certification of existing processes and manufacturers, establishing provable reliability and consistency of manufacturing processes and supply. If you read NASA parts procurement guidelines, you will find that they in fact specify use of parts up to and including 'mil-spec' parts of a grade called MIL-STD 975 Grade 1. If you care to read that giant PDF file, you will find capacitor specs starting about 20 pages in. I think, if you dig through both docs, you will figure out that any audio manufacturer which went through the process of finding good-sounding capacitors and matched them would probably end up with better-sounding and more appropriate capacitors than those taken out of a NASA engineer's parts box. If you read the guidelines and the MIL-STD 975M file and come up with different analysis, I'm happy to be corrected. |
Fremer might've got too excited and exaggerated it a little but I would think that most likely that Greek thing is really great even if they use junk grade parts; probably not. And his vote is not quite like everyone else's.
You say NASA grade parts? NASA itself has so many failures in addition to successes that you know what? I don't want similar grade parts in my amp. Military grade would do just fine. |
Inna..Michael Fremer is not exactly on target. The respected review site, Dagogo, reviewed and tested the Ypsilon PST-100 in September 2009 and put it up against the MBL 6010. The reviewer, Ed Momkus concluded that the MBL was the better performer due to its superior dynamics.
The Ypilson is not cheap. Cost is $ 25K. You say that Accuphase and Mac are overpriced ? No way. It appears you lack knowledge on the three grades of parts in the Audio industry. Standard, Military, and NASA grade. I'll repeat again what I stated in this thread, that the NASA grade materials used in the Accuphase are extremely expensive, such as the circuit board material and parts, which is why their cost is high, and the quality of parts, integrated into a well execute design scheme, results in magnificent sonic performance. all your best world class Preamps that sell at very high prices, all use NASA grade parts and components due to their very narrow defect rates, resulting in better phase and linearity of the music signal. |
>>07-08-11: Inna
Michael Fremer says Ypsilon preamp is the best there is<<
So what.
He gets one vote like everybody else. |
Michael Fremer says Ypsilon preamp is the best there is. Anyone heard it? Never heard Accuphase, heard some Mac a few years ago, not their best stuff, and couldn't care less about the sound though maybe the cables were junk or not a good match. And it appears that both Accuphase and Mac are overpriced. More or same money as LAMM and Rowland? Give me a break. |
Billimbriale..I'll answer the question regarding the sonic signature of Accuphase and Mcintosh, since I'm familiar with both and will get off the rock throwing plaform. Both Accuphase and Mcintosh have a very relaxed character and very smooth, and both image very well. The key differences is that Accuphase has better pinpoint imaging and detail and front to back layering. Accuphase has greater dimensional space that is typical with tubes. The top two Accuphase Preamps have superior bass than Mcintosh and sell for a lot more. The top Preamp costs $40K and the second one down
costs $29K. Mac's top two piece Preamp sells for $ 20K.
Accuphase gives a sonic character that is a better blend of tube and solid state than Mcintosh. Mac is more colored and Accuphase sounds cleaner and provides better spacial depth. The one area that Mac is no match whatsoever to the Accuphase top Preamp, the C-3800, is its brilliantly designed AAVA volume control. Its a fully balance dual mono gain control with a separate module for each channel that you will not find in the Mac. |
Thenis, the OP asked about the comparative sound signature. I have the same curiosity about the sound signature. Did any of you rock throwers attempt to answer his question? Do any of you know the answer to his question?
For a thread with a dozen or so responses, this one is absolutely awful and non-informative. Oh I guess a lot of you don't like one another - very helpful to the OP. |
That may be through your ears. I have heard some pretty good Mac gear on some killer systems. We all hear different I guess. |
I am not desperate to prove anything. Just open your eyes and ears. Look inside an Accuphase C-3800 Preamp on their website. The materials and boardwork are light years ahead of Mac. Mac is not bad stuff, just relying on old topology.
Mac has made no advances whatsoever in twenty years with new technologies in circuit designs or power supplies. The best sounding Preamps, regardless of price, based on their science and innovation, are the following, the Ayre KX-R, the Vitus SL-102, and the Accuphase C-3800, since they have a sonice character that portrays the very best of tube and solid state. There are many great products from Burmester, Boulder, Goldmund, FM Acoustics, Rey Audio, and Soulution, but these pieces lack the overall magic, bloom and emotion of the three I mention. All these companies have made great strides and advances with newer science and topology that has left Mac in the back of the train. Mac is old school that reached its pinnacle in the seventies, Mac makes great stuff but is simply not on the same level when it comes down to hall effect, holographic
3-D imaging and echo decay as the other brands mentioned. |
Audiofeil,
You beat me to it. |
Audiozen,
You really sound like you are desperate to prove that Accuphase is better than McIntosh, but the reasons that you come up with are absurd. Three cooling fans in a player proves bad engineering? If you are qualified to second guess their decisions, maybe you should be designing audio equipment yourself.
Th number of pieces of Mac for sale on Audiogon compared to Accuphase pieces is also without meaning in this case since Mac has much wider distribution, and therefore there are more pieces in circulation.
You are embarassing yourself. |
You're an idiot.
No offense of course. |
Accuphase's top Preamps are far more expensive and have a performance level way beyond Mcintosh for the following reasons. The circuit board material used in Accuphase's top model's is either Teflon or Fluorocarbon Resin which is very expensive and far more costly than the common green copper/glass boards found in Mcintosh. You will not find Teflon or Fluorocarbon resin boards in Mcintosh. Also, Accuphase uses NASA grade parts in their top models such as resistors, capacitors, and transistors that cost many times more than the military grade parts in Mcintosh. NASA grade parts have a defect rate 1/2 to 1%. Military grade parts have a defect rate between 3 and 5%. NASA grade parts always will result in a far superior sound, which is why Audiophiles who are aware of this will go the extra mile and buy components new or used with these materials knowing well the sonic results. This is why I state that Accuphase is like a Rolls Royce and Mac is like a Toyota Camry...SUPERIOR QUALITY!!!...you get what you pay for... |
Accuphase gear is so overpriced not many can afford it. Mc gear Isn't cheap but it is within reason for an average joe that doesn't drive a fancy car or eat out in 100.00 plus restaurants. |
>>07-06-11: Audiozen
Mac is not Ultra High End, Accuphase is<<
Dumb
>>to compare the two and imply they are on the same playing field is absurd, and shows a lack of intelligence and awareness of who these companies are<<
Dumber
>>If Mac's gear was world class in sound quality, there wouldn't be hundreds of used Mac pieces for sale<<
Dumberer
>>Accuphase is a Rolls Royce and Mac is a Toyota Camry<<
You think like an Edsel |
the reason that there are 200 Mac items for sale is Mac sells 200x more volume than Accuphase.
quality for Mac wasn't good 10 years ago---but open up a 452 or 601 and tell me they aren't using quality parts throughout. |
Off course its an insult..Mac is not Ultra High End, Accuphase is, and to compare the two and imply they are on the same playing field is absurd, and shows a lack of intelligence and awareness of who these companies are. Mac's top universal bluray player has three cooling fans in the unit, thats poor engineering. No other high end bluray player runs as hot. Good luck with the fan noise. There's close to 200 used Mac items for sale on Audiogon, which shows Mac does not have a high retainment of ownership as Accuphase does. If Mac's gear was world class in sound quality, there wouldn't be hundreds of used Mac pieces for sale on Audiogon, Audio Classics, Ebay, etc...an endless sea of used Mac stuff..as far as sound and build quality, Accuphase is a Rolls Royce and Mac is a Toyota Camry... |
Audiozen,
I respect Accuphase gear, and based on all that I have read, I would love to try one of their Class A amps. Nevertheless, I think that it has been proven in the past that jewel-like build quality is not a guarantee of "superior" sonics. Both companies produce high quality components that are known for their long term reliability and commitmant to customer satisfaction. Both companies also have loyal followers who enjoy their 'House Sound".
To call the comparison an insult is beyond partisan, it is just silly. |
An insult to Accuphase, not sure about that. Mac is making some pretty good gear these days. |
How would you compare accuphase with lfd (ncse or mk Iv)? |
Accuphase compared to Mcintosh? Give me a break. What an insult to Accuphase. Mcintosh is crap compared to Accuphase. No way in the same league. But what's really funny is Mac is owned by a Japanese company, D&M Holdings (Denon and Marantz). Just one of many examples, you won't find teflon circuit boards in Mac, which have the lowest noise floor. Mac uses standard military grade copper/glass boards that are common in A/V Receivers. Accuphase is built with much better quality control, better execution in desigh scheme. They are what Mark Levinson was twenty years ago, and should be recognized as such. Mac is just a name nowadays and will never be in the same league as Accuphase. As far as performance quaility, Accuphase is up there with Soulution, Burmester, FM Acoustics, Boulder, BMC and Ypsilon. I would argue their C-3800 Preamp that just came out, is the best sounding SS Pre on the market, with a luxurious, rich texture thats closer to tubes that any other solid state PreAmp. |
Thenis,
Be aware that Stanwal has about a hundred anti Mac posts here on agon. I think Mac pissed in his cornflakes and he has never gotten over it. |
I would always choose Accuphase myself. |
the particular model may or may not have better bass. the loudspeaker and the room play a big part as well.imo.. mac is more organic...accuphase is more detailed. both are keepers. |
