Themis,
You got a NASA-grade response. |
Yeah Thenis, a lot of useless response. |
In any case, I would suggest listening to other brands too.
Drinking by the label has limited value. Oops, to take it literally I do drink by the label but still try to keep an open mind.
NASA or no NASA, happy journey. |
Boy this got out of hand ... hopefully I will not make things worse.
Firstly, we shall all agree that Accuphase vs. Mcintosh is like MAC vs. PC, i.e we have two camps that almost never agree. One should never disregard this and make bold statements (irrespective whether these statements are correct or not).
Secondly, It is also important to realize that both these brands are very expensive and often highly overpriced in most parts of the world (let's leave USA and Japan aside). Because of this almost always they are partnered with top of the line speakers and since both brands make pretty decent electronics almost always we hear good sound from both brands. However, it seems to me that when compared directly Accuphase wins almost always, e.g. my dealer who carries both brands says he sells 3-4 times more Accuphase than Mcintosh units (the two brands have comparable prices here in Europe).
Personally, I would always choose Accuphase over Mcintosh. Firstly, because of the sound. To my ears Mcintosh amps always sound slow and dark (by dark I do not mean having black background but I mean colored), they also do not image as well as Accuphase amps. Secondly, because of the build quality the Accuphase devices are much more luxurious, e.g. Mcintosh potentiometers and buttons feel rather cheep. Because of the facts mentioned above, I consider Mcintosh to be an expensive (and more versatile) Musical Fidelity, i.e. not bad but not up there with the big boys.
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Whatbdo you mean by colored? Hearing colors in music to me is a very good thing. |
I could never understand why so many audiophiles like what they say is a faster versus slower sound. I have not heard an orchestra sound as we hear it on solid state syetems. If anything, they sound slower and warmer to my ears 95% of the time. I want to hear music as close to the real performance as possible. For me, I never played in a symphony orchestra but I do play clarinet so I do have experience with how instruments sound. I have never heard solid state electronics give me this sense of realism regardless if it is Mcintosh or Accuphase. Tubes get closer, McIntosh does make some decent tube gear. You may want to try Atma-sphere. They do make great gear and have excellent bass for a tube amp. In fact sometimes I cannot believe it is a tube amp. They are very natural sounding and make some of the most colorful music I have heard. Not to change the subject, but if you are looking to spend some money, you might want to give Atmasphere a listen. Great value for the coin. IMO. |
Tzh2ly..faster or slower?..easy to explain..which pertains more to the amp than the Preamp. The rate of speed from the amp's output to the Speaker is called the slew rate and is measured in milliseconds. The higher the number, the faster the signal to the speaker. Its like rpm's in a car engine. Amps with slower slew rates sound sluggish and dull. If you want the best sound qualities of tube and solid state amp performance and can afford it, hook up a Luxman C-1000F Preamp to a pair of Bel Canto Reference 1000M monoblocks, with a Luxman D-08 SACD player, and the new Sony SS-AR1 speakers. This combination due to its design science, will take you to the gates of Audio Heaven regardless of price, providing you all the best dynamics, detail and smoothness and richness one could ever hope for. |
Audiozen, what amp you would recommend for Ayre KX-R? |
Luxman does make some great gear, no doubt about it. Not sure about Bel Canto. I have never heard it. |
Quanmer...that all depends..the Ayre is extremely neutral and can cut both ways..do you like your sound to be highly analytical in the center of neutral or do you favor a warm full chesty midrange?.. |
Hi guys, sorry for the late reply.
Tzh2ly: The terms faster and slow refer to the attack of a note e.g. the key of a piano or the strings of a guitar or harps, and not to the tempo(speed) of the music (i.e. bits per minute). Of course, a whole orchestra consisting of 30 or more people can not be very fast. Regarding the term color, in the hi-fi jargon this term is used to express deviation form neutrality. This is what I have also meant. Of course having some color (i.e. deviation from neutrality) is often a good thing (nobody wants to listen music in an anechoic room for example).
Audiozen: Regarding the slew rate of an amplifier, by looking at its definition, i.e. the maximum value of the time derivative of the voltage, I would say that the slew rate of an amp is equivalent to the acceleration and not to the RPMs of a car. One can always make analogies between mechanical and electrical quantities. By doing so one can find that charge plays in electricity the same role length plays in mechanics. Thus, using Ohm's law (for a given constant resistor) and the fact that electrical current is the time derivative of charge one obtains that the slew rate is proportional to the second derivative of charge with respect to time. Since charge is equivalent to length, and the acceleration is the second derivatives of length with respect to time it should be clear that the slew rate should be associated to acceleration and not to RPMs (after all RPMs is just a number it have no units).
Best wishes,
Paul
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Nvp,
Thanks for your clarification of slew rate to Audiozen. I'm not sure what you told him, but you really told him. |
I like the Mcintosh. I have heard Accuphase, and it is wonderful! I have heard and own Mcintosh, and it is equally superb. Theoretical technical advances and subjective evaluations are what this passion called audiphile is all about. There are simply too many variables to declare any winners... What speakers, cables, acoustics, source material? However, I sort of enjoy this spirited debate. Technical measurements are an "attempt" to distinguish one from another. Nothing else. |
Audiofeil: "So what he gets one vote, like everyone else". man, U'r rough.......Couldn't have said it better myself!! Michael Fremer doesn't get paid enough to listen, or think for people............LOL baggs1 |
I have owned both, the Accuphase was more analytical the McIntosh more musical. What's your pleasure.....
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Audiozen sounds like he's a dealer. Not a bad thing, but calls into question his passion for Accuphase and his dislike of Mac gear. While I could own a piece, one piece that is, it is not that the Accu brand is over priced but, our pathetic government has pissed away the value of our dollar. Just look at the price of European gear. For a while there they were raising prices faster than I've ever seen prices rise. Mac is not expensive compared to other hi-end makers. Take some of the integrateds they have. Where can anyone get the reliability,resale value and a very musical sound for what nowadays is mid-fi at it's upper end price.
As far as looks go Audiozen, each to his own. I love the look of Accu and Mac gear. Black brushed faceplates, well they just plain suck out loud and they're boring to look at.
If the Jpanese yen wasn't in the tank, the Accu gear would be WAYYY more costly.
NASA grade? Does it really matter the parts quality, as long as reliability isn't sacrificed, it is implementation that is so critical. If parts quality was what made or break a piece of gear, then how would companies with modest pricing be able to come so close and in some cases better the sound of equipment they compete against at much more costly prices. It's execution of the build.
To myself, I have gear to my ears that sounds far more musical than Accu. And too much of what you think is great, along with many other people, can't be found in a live performance. Imaging, soundstage!!! Give me a break. Sounds to me like your more into dissecting the music than enjoying it. Been there done that, and just spent the 'H' out of a lot of money.
May you someday have the capacity to truly 'enjoy the music'. |
The high price of Accuphase in the US is mostly due to distributor markup. You will see this if you try to get a unit from Japan. The shipping, duty, and what have you does not cost as much as you think. I don't think Audiozen is a dealer. He's just stating the facts of which manufacturer uses better parts and has better build quality. And that would be Accuphase. Accuphase is also better in sound quality; much more transparent and dynamic. However, McIntosh is not bad at all, and they certainly are in the top 10 of hi fi companies. But their stuff is a bit slow and colored compared to Accuphase. Anyway, that's my take. |
I have always wanted to audition Accuphase gear- no local dealer/retailer. And yes, blame our government for the relative 'low' value of the dollar. |
Yeah, you'll have to make a trip to audition. I know I have to as well. The list of dealers nationwide is on the distributors site. Again, the low value of the dollar only tells part of the story as I explained in my last post. The dist. does not import hundreds of these units into the US. What is the case most often is an Accuphase component is a special order. This is what I've been told by an authorized dealer. |
Both are higher priced because of the brand name, but really, Accuphase is going to be the better one, in most cases.
It depends on your preference for sound, as Esoteric is very good and a bit more dynamic, as is ARC, which still make only stereo CD players, and Ayre is very good, a bit more breath-openness than Esoteric, yet Esoteric has a huge sound stage. Then I find my old McCormack UDP-1 to be more warm and palpable, but less dynamic, while Accuphase is near as dynamic, more air, more lush and one might say warm, then how you define warm? If it means to shadow some detail, the McIntosh may sound better to one so disposed. Personally, I am happy with Esoteric, the two I have and I like the Ayre V-5xe for being a bit more smooth, or a air like presence in the upper mid-range, then both are very good and you would need the best preamplifier and a dam good power amplifier to tell much difference. |
I am not with audiozen... But they are not in the the same league. Accuphase is better. Its power conditioner, channel divider and equilizer are the best around the world. I think you will get the same answer if you ask any dealer. |
To answer the OP's question, the Accuphase will generate a much more accurate and defined sonic signature without sounding clinical. Not sure is he is considering the E-470 or E-600. They sound very different as the E-600 is Class A. Either one beats any McIntosh integrated handily. |
greginnh,
Are you by any chance familiar with the E-270 model. Of course, that's
their basic model. Is it big difference in the sound between E-270 and their upper end E-470. I listened my speakers with the E-470 which I can not afford and I really liked the sound. I am very close to order E-270 but I am concerned about the sound difference between these two amplifiers.
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I am not familiar with the E270. It might be a good idea to ask you dealer. My guess is that the sonic characteristics will be similar but that's just a guess.
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Be thankful you can own McIntosh, most of us will never know what they sound like in their own homes. Accuphase also, is the ultra top tier audio.
Either amp, equipment by these two brands will surely put a smile on your face. Enjoy.
i would go with McIntosh just to brag I own it, and have a 2nd system downstairs with accuphase :)
enjoy the music! |
The new 270 accuphase for 4500 , I heard it ,ot better then the Mac 5300 and less money . Cleaner more clearer sound ,
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