Acapella vs. Avantgarde

Amfibius, I don't either, but my old Ionovacs burned a rod and the Hill Plasmatronic burned hydrogen or some compressed gas. I do know that at some point you need to replace something within the unit that gets consumed.Perhaps the tubes set a charge to allow burning the element.

Tbg, I have no idea how that flame is generated. Maybe i'll fire off (no pun intended) an email to Acapella to ask.

It is very early in the morning here in Australia (5am when I posted that message above). I just turned on the speakers and EUREKA both flames are alive again. I'm not sure what's causing this annoying inconsistency but I will get it sorted out for sure.

Amfibius, I have been there myself. Good luck. Is the flame affected by the amplification in the power supply?

Oh sorry TBG. I just realized that you have to be a member of that forum before you can see the pictures. I was talking about the Acapella Violons.

UNFORTUNATELY, yesterday one of the tweeters suddenly became much more quiet than the other one. Even with the volume control maxed, it only barely manages to put out enough volume. The size of the plasma flame is also a lot smaller. I made a panicked call to the dealer, and he suggested that I change the valves. As I lack the correct Allen key, I am up early this morning so I can visit the hardware store the moment it opens.

*sighs*

Amfibius, what speakers are you talking about. The picture postings don't work.

Well the speakers arrived yesterday. You can see a lot of pictures here:

http://www.stereo.net.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=3088&st=0

Also more pictures in my virtual system.

I was very surprised when I hooked them up to my Cary CAD-805AE amps. I was expecting to hear lean anemic bass, but surprise surprise - there is actually more bass than my ProAc D38. And the bass has an effortless sound to it as well. Too bad that i've already ordered and paid for my new amps, because i'm starting to think an amp upgrade may be unnecessary. But it would be interesting to see what improvements the CAD-211AE will bring.

The other interesting observation is that these are 91dB/W/m - less than the ProAc's (quoted at 92dB/W/m). Yet I don't have to crank the volume as much to achieve the same loudness.

I was chatting to my neighbour this morning and she said that she didn't know that I could play the violin so well. I just grinned. Little does she know :) Tonight she will find out how well I can conduct a symphonic orchestra!

Yes, the Einstein OTLs are great with the Acapellas but the combination of the Jadis 300B SETs and the solid state Belles sounds as good or even better than the Einsteins so I'm sure that there are other amps out there that would provide a great match. The 211AE's definitely seem like a good choice.

Good luck and please keep us posted!

Kotjac, I have heard that the Einstein OTL's are the best solution as Acapella themselves use it. However, they suffer from a very serious drawback - you can't get them in Australia!

In any case, since I last wrote I have already ordered my Cary CAD-211AE's. Hopefully that should be enough. If not enough, then I will (gulp) have to bi-amp them.

Gregm, I already have biwirable speaker cable so it won't cost me extra to bi-wire if I wanted to. In fact it would cost me extra to mono-wire them as I would have to buy a new pair of cables. The credit card is about to jump out of my pocket and run away screaming from all the punishment I have meted out to it!

Greg, why is mono-amping the most ruinous solution

I misunderstood this to mean, use MONO blocs all around... sorry!

I would agree however that passively biamping is expensive and only sometimes beneficial -- biwiring likewise.

As you imply, it's best to get a grip on the speakers first and see what can be done later.

Methinks I got carried away... pardon! It's clear that with the lowest crossing set at 800Hz, it's going to be very difficult to devise an active solution: the ear is still sensitive there.
Now, if you had another cross at say 100-80Hz...

Cheers

The crossover in the Violons is physically separated into three parts. Each of them can be driven by a separate amp so theoretically even tri-amping is possible. When I spoke with Hermann Winters of Acapella he said that bi-amping works great on these speakers and that two sets of the Einstein OTLs sound much better that a single set.

Greg, why is mono-amping the most ruinous solution? I would have thought that it would be cheaper to mono-amp than to bi-amp?

I found it rather difficult to understand why also. That is why I asked for the crossover schematic but the dealer was (understandably) unable to supply this. When I get the speaker, I will be measuring the impedance and dissecting the crossover so that I can get a better idea how best to drive them.

The dealer also recommended NOT biwiring them. I am one of those people who considers biwiring to be, well, unproven. But his comments were a little puzzling.

In any case, my current plan is to simply get the CAD-211AE's. IF I find that that is not enough, there is always scope to borrow a CAD-500MB to try bi-amping (as per my plan above).

Hi Amfi

He told me that the best result was always obtained by mono-amping,

Yup, well, that's also the most ruinous solution.

...and has something to do with the design of the Acapella crossover

Now that, I find difficult to understand. The xover dislikes multichannel amplification enclosures:)??

I'm sure you'll be fine as decided.
Another thought is, simply, to use any something for the bottom; try it using a borrowed Behringer and start out with 4order LR, see (hear) what happens. Or, simply, just passively biamp for now.
Cheers

After getting some advice from several people I will upgrade my Cary CAD-805AE's to the CAD-211AE's. 50W to 110W - should be enough. I hope!

Yep, I doubt if they are sold there. The website is exemplaraudio.com but it is not very up-to-date.

Essentialaudio, the dealer demo'ed the speakers with Wavac 805's (55W SET's). I asked for these amps because they are "sort of" similar in power to my Cary CAD-805AE's. I know people recommend Einstein OTL, but unfortunately these are not imported into Australia. The dealer carries the rest of the Einstein line, but specifically not the OTL's. Which is unfortunate.

Tbg, is this the website for Exemplar?

http://www.exemplaraudio.com/

Can't seem to find anything about the Statement amp there. In any case, I don't think it's available in Australia which rules it out.

Amfibius, I would encourage you to try the Exemplar Statement amp. I use it on my La Campanellas with great success. Previously I had used the Reimyo PAT 777. I would not suggest using its line stage which can be bypassed.

Amfibius, which tube amplifiers did your dealer try? At CES Hermann Winters of Acapella mentioned biamping while we were listening to the High Violon Mk IIIs. Einstein The Final Cut Mk 60 monoblocks were used. Einstein amplifiers are used to voice their speakers.

Gregm, thanks for your response. I have been in touch with Rob (rwjp), another AudioGon member. We live in the same city and I have met him. He seems to know you.

I took your comments to the Acapella dealer. He said that he has tried amplifying the Violons with the following configurations:

- bi-amped with identical valve top and bottom
- bi-amped with valve on top, SS on bottom
- bi-amped with identical SS top and bottom
- mono-amped with SS
- mono-amped with valve

He told me that the best result was always obtained by mono-amping, and has something to do with the design of the Acapella crossover. He cannot supply the schematic for me to examine myself ... although it may be possible for me to do a bit of surgery once I get the speakers to look at the crossover design. He can't even tell me what the slopes are. ALl that I know, is that they cross over at 800 and 4500Hz.

At the moment I have abandoned my bi-amping idea and will probably upgrade my amp to the Cary CAD-211AE. 110W of Class A/B push-pull. I would like some feedback on whether other members think this is a good idea, or whether I should just buy the Cary CAD-500MB's (500W SS) to put on the bottom?

So, I ordered the Violons.

Good for you!

I need to think about how I am going to drive them with my own meagre SET's...

Others have given comprehensive info.
My info comes from playing with Violons (& Campanile) using Mahler 5 (Barbirolli) & 2 (Klemperer), and a few other things. So, driving Violons & the Mahlerian or Wagnerian Orchestra:
1) You know and I can confirm that reproducing the musical illusion and impact of a full Wagnerian Orch is tricky. Worse, a fully blown Mahler 8.
2) Tricky No2: you have one unit and no horn, for mid and down.
The applicability of ONE amplification unit, working seamlessly fm dc to daylight, is questionable. You need to use two channels/side. However, this is tricky to do as the xover is set very high (normally you'd need the extra horn to go down to, say, ~100Hz) which means, well engineered amplification. So, I recommend you settle for ANYthing that can produce acceptable/good lower mids to mid-bass with yr speakers (i.e. ~60Hz upwards, this applies even with the "bass enhanced model, whatever they call it -- which is the one I played with). Many diy options in Ozz... so, do try. When find a selection of products that seem to work it's all about finding the one that blends sonically w/ yr SET. Forget the 40Hz range for the moment.
3) "What would be nicer":
If you could use an active xover with adjustable slopes, phase and attenuation prior to the amps -- despite the existance of the passive.
4) Depending on yr room & set-up possibilities, you may need to incorporate separate woofs (the ubiquitous "sub" woofs).
5) Check points:
Amplification: refer to upper mids & lower-mids as they are portrayed together, i.e. the piece you're listening to contains both ranges. Forget mids for now, and forget transparency/ amount of detail, etc. Focus only on how realistically these two ranges sound.
Positioning: work on getting the mid-bass right and the bass (such as it is) should suddenly appear out of nowhere. It's a matter of "coupling" the 2 lower units; there should be an optimum positioning range for this in yr room. In some cases, it;s a matter of less than 1". You;re playing w/ wavelengths is all -- no rocket science.

TO simplify things with the Violons, I used ss class A everywhere. I also tried hi-ish powered SETs everywhere (KR). I used the same amps for all channels; I also tried a very cheap xover (simply, a Behringer, that was laying around). I used a TVC, so no active pre stage. All of this was at a dealer's where equipment was readily available.

The result CAN be good, even on Mahler 8! I didn't use subwoofers -- but could have, most usefully so. I couldn't play very loud & this is relative to room size of course: when the ppp was easily discernible, the ffff was simply compressing. The room was large (~80 m2).
Cheers

Kotjac, I know the Supratek guy. In fact I knew him when I was back in uni and when he was first starting up his company. I interviewed him and published his comments on another forum.

Yes, a Cabernet Dual is certainly on the cards. Will have to see.

Interview is here if you are interested:

http://www.stereo.net.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=2550

I'm sure you're going to love the Violons. I did some experimenting with mine over the last couple of weeks and contrary to what most people tend to think, these speakers responded very well to bi-amping with quite different amplifiers.

I already found the perfect amp to drive the midrange horn and the tweeter: Jadis SE-300B monoblocks. These single ended amps put out only 10 wpc but it's seems like it's plenty of juice for this application. I preferred the Jadis to the mighty Lamm ML 2's and several different push pull amps I tried. The Violons sound spectacular now with all the magic you would expect from well implemented 300B single ended circuit.

I am still playing with different solid state amps for the woofers, but so far I love the combination of the Jadis monos with Belles 350A Reference. The blend is almost seemless.

The Violons need a very careful setup to sound good in the bass, but once everything is right, the bass is quick and quite extended. From my experience the stock footers should be replaced with something more adequate. I had a set of the largest Sistrum Audio Points custom made to fit Acapella threads and the improvements they brought in were very dramatic: tighter, quicker bass and better focus and microdynamics. $400, but well worth it.

If you're willing to make some changes to your electronics, the Supratek Cabernet Dual is a fabulous preamp and will make bi-amping much easier to implement. It has basically two preamp circuits in one chassis (one based on 6H30 tube and the other based on 6SN7 and 101D DHT), with independent gain control and one master volume. This way your will be able to perfectly match the levels if your amps have different input sensitivity. The Supratek pre is truly amazing and it happens to be made not far from your home!

Eljaro, your comment was very astute. You are quite right that the two Avantgarde systems were not set up properly. When I heard the Uno's, the room acoustics was not very good, and the dealer had not found an ideal setup for the subwoofer modules. In fact, when I started listening to the speakers, one of the subs wasn't even turned on. It was only when I complained about the lack of bass that the omission was discovered.

The Uno dealer did have the speakers set up properly, but probably did not hook up amps that would do them justice. No option of bringing my own amps since I had to fly to a different city to hear them.

Dan-ed, the Acapella's were demonstrated with a 55W SET because I specifically requested for an amp similar to mine. Once again, no option of bringing my own amp as the speakers were in Sydney. But it did demonstrate to me that I am unlikely to achieve ideal sound with my current amplification - so I did achieve one of my objectives. At the moment i'm doing a bit of amplifier research. I found an old thread on Audiogon discussing suitable amps for the Violons. When I get my speakers and do some listening, I will decide for sure whether or not I need an amplifier upgrade. Then you will see another post from me on Audiogon :)

The Violons are bi-wirable, although the dealer recommended that I do not do so. He found better results running a single cable to the woofer module, then another length of cable to the midrange horn, and from there to the tweeter module.

Whart - no break in is necessary since these speakers are secondhand and a few years old. I will be able to enjoy them the moment I get them! Unfortunately that won't be for another month ... at the moment I am mobilizing some money and the dealer has to arrange to ship them interstate.

I would like to thank you (and others) for the invaluable help I have received here. And thank you also to everyone who has emailed me ... I now have some new friends from all over the world. The next time you are in sunny Melbourne, make sure you drop me a line.

Well, the trick, as you know, is working the pieces together to make for a coherent whole that is, if not greater than the sum of its parts, than at least not limited by any one of them.
Thanks for reporting back, and let us know what your experience is with the amps. I went from Audiopax 88s (@ 30 watts per) to the Lamm ML2 (@ 18 watts per) and found a significant improvement; granted, there is also a big price difference, but not so much when the equipment is bought 2d hand.
Enjoy your speakers. I'll bet they wind up improving as they break in and you learn more about how they should be set up in in your room.

I demoed my AVG's with a BAT VK75se at my dealer. I thought the sound was pretty bad; my dealer had the speakers set-up well (he is very knowledgable about AVG's and has a lot of experience with the brand), but the sound was rolled off and disjointed. Through it all I could hear something that I liked.....

In the end he offered to let me audition them at home and I was able to borrow a pair of Nagra VPA 845's from him. The sound clicked into place with these amps and I bought 'em. The Nagra's were not the best match either (they were too noisy) but they did let me hear what the speakers are capable of. I have tried about five different amps with my speakers since and can tell you they are VERY revealing of what's driving them.

FWIW, I finally settled on an Art Audio PX-25 and am very happy.

Chris

Amfibius - Glad to hear you made up your mind ans selcted the Violins, I am sure you will get a terrific speaker.

Based on my experince with the UNOs, I should say that amp maching is rather critical, I tried a lot of amps (including SET) and arrived to the Jadis DA50Signature, Jacek is trying the Jadis SET300B and would be interesting to hear his findings as well.

Take care

Fernando

Oops! Just saw Kotjac's prior post. That answers my question.

Eljaro, it doesn't sound to me like the Acapellas were demoed under the optimum conditions either.

Amfibius, can you bi-wire the Violons? That's one feature that is missing from the LaCampanellas, IMO.

Again we see how a badly setup of demo equipment can win or lose a customer.
The violon is surely a fantastic speaker and Amphibius will surely be extremely happy with them.
But if he could have auditioned properly set up AvantGarde Nanos, (Unos is an old model now and not available any more) Duos with the Omega drivers or better yet, the Mezzo with the Horn Bass Drivers he wouldn't be looking now for more amp power and would have fast, tight bass to shake up the house.
And we do not use such a bass to do precisely that, but to hear and feel it even at very moderate listening levels.

Thanks for all your help guys. I found that most people's description of the sound from all 3 speakers I listened to was pretty accurate. Very reassuring that I can trust the ears on AudioGon.

The shopping experience has been a positive one, with all the dealers treating me with courtesy. Only one dealer did not know how to set up the speakers properly which was a bit of a disappointment.

At the moment I am thinking of how to amplify the speakers because I suspect that my Cary SET's will not have enough juice. Probably get a pair of Cary 500MB's to run the bass section because I have heard that the 500MB's are very similar tonally to the rest of the Cary range.

As my preamp does not have dual RCA out, I will have to run an RCA splitter. One pair of RCA leads will run directly to the CAD-805AE. The other pair will run through an analog equalizer into the 500MB. This will help match the gain of the 500MB to the 805AE, and provide me with some ability to tune the bass to my liking.

I have not heard the acapella, but I have heard the Uno, the Nano and the Mezzo. The Nano improves on the sound of the Uno. It is much more refined and sounds definitively better. The Mezzo, which is really a Duo with a horn loaded woofer is absolutely fantastic. The bass is very good and I doubt it can get much better, unless you go to the trio/basshorn combination and get the house to fit it in.
The Mezzo, which I would catalogue as one of the best speaker systems you can get today costs in Europe 31500 Euros, in the US probably over $45000. Not cheap, but since you only need 5 Watts to drive them, you save on amplifier hardware. SET works best.

I've also found that the LaCampanellas work better with more power. I tried my 50w Lectron push/pull but they really opened up with my Rogue M-150s at 150w/ch. Not only did the bass response improve but I believe it also cleaned up what little "horn" sound there was. It seemed as though you could hear that 700Hz xover point more prominently with the lower powered amps. I suspect this desire for a little more juice is a common characteristic with the Acapellas. Really a great sounding speaker, though I suspect those who listen to mainly classical may not like how pianos sound. But with jazz and alternative rock the LaCampanellas sound wonderful!

Amfibius, I must say I agree with all that you say based on my listening to both speaker lines.

I presently own the LaCampanellas and tried to use my excellent Reimyo SET with 8 watts. It did it best but is not up to the challenge of an 93 db efficient speaker. I don't know if Exemplar equipment is available in Australia or even if they make 240 volt equipment, but this was the amp for my speaker.

Okay, I have finally managed to audition every speaker I have mentioned in this thread. I started the journey in February when I made the first post. I just returned from my trip to Sydney, where I heard the Acapella Violons and the Avantgarde Uno's. I have already heard the Duo's (see above). Here are my impressions.

Uno's: sound just like the Duo's. The dealer initially had them hooked up to a pair of Audio Note Soro SE's and it sounded absolutely terrible. I thanked him for his time and was about to walk out, when he suggested to try a Graaf OTL power amp. So I sat down again and let him make the swap. Let's just say that the speakers now sounded acceptable. The nasal quality was gone, the dynamics had improved, and the sound was more natural. I was pretty impressed.

The next day, I visited another dealer and listened to the Violons. A Metronome CDP and a pair of Wavac 805 SET's were used - chosen because they are roughly similar to my Cary 805's.

When I walked into the room, the dealer had some music playing softly. Let's just say that my jaw dropped - the sound was so pure, so clean, so effortless - it was like nothing I have ever heard before. It made me realize that all other speakers sound coloured by comparison.

The midrange was married very effectively to the tweeter. I was looking for a seam where the midrange meets the tweeter but I could not hear it, despite knowing exactly where it is. At the top end, the midrange almost matches the tweeter for speed, and gets a little bit lazier at the bottom.

The bass was inadequate though. Not very loud and rather boomy. I suspect this was more the fault of the SET than the speakers themselves. 55W of SET isn't quite enough.

So, I ordered the Violons. They will arrive in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, I need to think about how I am going to drive them with my own meagre SET's ...

Yes, the Violons can be bi-amped, however the overall coherence of the sound will suffer if the amps used are quite different. Remember, the crossover point is high at 800Hz, which means that the amp driving the bottom section would work pretty far into the midrange. A plate amp would definitely be a very bad idea.

On the other hand the high crossover point means that the amplifier driving the top section would only see frequencies from 800Hz up. This opens up a lot of doors, including the option to use 300B SETs. Finding a solid state amp that would offer a seamless blend will not be easy, but it doesn't mean it's not possible. After all the Violons are already a mixture of three different driver technologies and I'm still amazed at how seamless and coherent they sound.

One thing I have to stress is that even though to my ears the Avantgardes sound better below 800Hz, the Violons are still superb in this area.

Thanks for your responses Kotjac and Fernando. Kotjac, your comment about the Avantgardes being superior from 800Hz and below is very interesting indeed. So is your comment about the selection of amplifier being critical.

I suppose this raises the obvious question - would the Violons benefit from being bi-amped? I know the Violons have bi-wirable speaker posts. I am assuming that this seperates the crossover from midrange/tweeter and subwoofer modules, with the crossover frequency being 800Hz. Do you think the Violons would benefit from say, my Cary's driving the mid/tweeter and a seperate amplifier (with volume control) driving the subwoofer module?

I ask this, because I know a guy who specializes in making custom plate amplifiers.

I had the pleasure to listen to Fernando's wonderful system last weekend and I was really impressed with the overall speed, dynamics and bass slam of his Unos. In these three areas the Unos sounded better than any other Avantgardes I ever heard. I think that it had a lot to do with Fernando's room, which, unlike the listening rooms in the U.S., has a very rigid structure built of brick, stone and concrete. My listening room is a typical American construction, which I believe is responsible for a relative lack of low end speed and dynamics, not only with my Acapellas, but any other speakers I had before (including the MBL 101Ds, known for their exceptional speed and bass dynamics).

As far as the Acapella vs. Avantgarde question goes, having listened to the Duos and Trios on several occassions and owning a pair of High Violons, I find the Avantgardes to be better in the frequency range covered by the Violons 10" mid-woofer (800Hz and below): they are fast, dynamic and in the right room can sound very visceral with amazing impact and well defined leading edge. They are so good in this respect that the slight lack of low end extension and slight discontinuity in the upper bass are something one could easily live with. The Violons don't quite have such explosive dynamics and the amazing speed, but their bass seems a little more of a piece, is pretty tight and nimble albeit it doesn't quite have the slam and gut moving impact of the Avantgardes. From 800Hz up and particularly in the treble (the plasma tweeter is unbelievable), the Acapellas are hard to beat, with gorgeous, very realistic tone, amazing presence, transparency, tons of natural detail and superb extension. The Avantgardes are not quite as tonally dense and sound relatively less refined, but are still better than almost anything else on the market.

Now, the perfect speaker would have the Violon's section from 800Hz up, the Avantgardes' big horn to go down to 200Hz and a great woofer system (perhaps the AG bass-horns) for the bass. One such system already exists (although it uses standard woofers): Acapella Triolon Excalibur. Unfortunately it retails at $145,000...

In response to Fernando's comments, with respect to the Violons, the comparison is probably accurate but will be influenced by the amp driving the Acapella's. Midrange purity is better with tubes, low bass and speed improve with an appropriate solid state amp. The comparison becomes increasingly less accurate as one moves up the Acapella line first to the Campaniles where the midrange horn goes down to 500 hz and even more so with the Triolons which have a bass horn that goes down to 170 hz. In each instance as the bass cut off moves lower there is a concommitant increase in speed, bass impact and midrange purity. I think that the common thread with all the Acapella speakers is the plasma tweeter which is by far the best tweeter that I have ever heard including the diamond tweeter used in some of the Martens, the tonal purity and the seamlessness of the very different drivers. The AG speakers have a different set of strengths but are equally credible. In the end, as you move up the Acapella line, you begin to close in on the areas where the AG's are very strong keeping the areas where the Acapella's are strong.

Amfibus, the Duo mid horn is about 2" wider on either side. Since it's fairly directional, I haven't noticed any problems simply placing it wherever a UNO had been installed.

Flg2001, I'd agree with your friend's observation about the Acapella tweeter. Of course the difference is much less with the DUO, as the DUO is using the smoother and more refined TRIO tweeter driver. Even so, the Acapella tweeter, when it's working right, is mighty tough to beat. I'd still give the honors to it, even over the TRIO driver.

It's always possible to find a particular range where a great speaker can beat another. For me the question is, what's the overall presentation do for me? Do I forget I'm listening to a speaker and literally become immersed in the musical experience?

Maybe it's just me, but so often over the years the very thing that was calling my attention to itself became the thing that drove me to distraction later. Even when that part was truly excellent.

So on the whole, with the lusher and more involving presentation of the DUO (not to mention the huge difference in dynamics), I'd take its musical involvement factor in a heartbeat.

But hey, no matter how objective I'd like to think I am, I'm probably still a bit biased.

So ymmv...

Best regards,

Jim Smith

Well, my friend Jacek came last night and he shared with me his knowledge, based on the fact that he owns Acapella Violins and have heard many AG, including my UNOs.

He agreed that the top end of the Accapelas is unbeatable, as well as the overall tonal palette and involving presentaton, on the other hand - he said that the speed, bass impact and midrange purity of the AG (UNOs in this case) were a tad better than the Acapellas.

Hope this additional piece of information helps you out, or any potential AG/Acapella buyer

Fernando

Hornguys, what are the main sonic differences between the Uno's and the Duo's? The dealer does not have a set of Uno's, so if I want them i'll have to order them out of sight. The specs say that the diameter of each horn is 70cm less which would help a lot in getting them to fit in my room.

Joey_v, at the moment I am renting and looking to buy a nice house in Melbourne. Don't know if you have been here, but the closer you want to live to the city, the smaller the houses are! It's only out in the 'burbs where you can get a decent sized house. So in short, I don't know how big my next listening room is going to be.

3m is about the shortest listening distance you can hope for, and it will take PRECISE tilt adjustments at that.

This is based on your listening seat height. The closer you are, the less forgiving this adjustment is, due to the spacing between drivers.

Also, I've never found a room that cares whether you have UNOs or DUOs. The requirements are virtually interchangeable.

Since the DUOs are significantly better, I'd go for them if possible, maybe even used, over UNOs (which are good, but there's a reason 8 DUOs sold for every UNO).

Amfibius,

Great impressions you posted. I'm wondering though, you're spending this much on speakers and are still willing to compromise integration/coherence in your own "smaller" listening room and you are willing to sacrifice an overly tall soundstage, too?

Maybe if the Acapellas dont wow you, perhaps it's time to look at what else the industry has to offer.

Ambfib- you do not have to be a "believer" to hear profound differences between the factory supplied jumpers and after market cables. It is not subtle. It sounds like the dealer did not show the speakers off to anywhere near their capablity. I think you would be astounded if they are set up well. (And I say this, not as an advocate just for the Avantgardes vs. the Acapellas or any other brand, but simply because I have experienced the differences as I have changed out wire, repositioned the speakers, played with the woofer tuning, added acoustic treatment to my room, experimented with different combinations of preamp/amp and long/short wire configurations, as well as brands of wire).
I cannot give you any insight into the real world experience with Uno or its variants- I have none.

If you want to read more of my thoughts on this speaker, I have posted them in another forum. Here is the link:

http://www.planetaudio.com.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=2422

Fernando, I noticed that the dealer was using what appeared to be normal electric lamp wire rather than proper speaker cable to wire the sub to the mid/tweeter horns. Of course I could be wrong, but when they are that thin and have multistranded copper and no spade/banana plug terminations, you have to wonder. I'm not a big believer in speaker cables (having never heard much of a difference in my system) but i'll keep an open mind on this one.

Whart you are right - mostly setup issues. But I am very careful about how I select my speaker! It is easier to just buy the right speaker than to have to demolish walls and extend rooms!

Just a couple more questions.

1. The Duo's might be too big for my room. What do people think of the Uno's? Are they just like a Duo, but smaller? If I order a pair, i will probably get them with the optional SUB225 module.

2. What about the Uno variants, like the Uno Nano?

Amfibius - You did an excelent jon at describing the Avantgarde main sonic characteristics (all fixable) - just a couple of things IMO.

The sub settings will help you integrating the AG sound a lot, it takes time, but well rewarded, and also, check your cable options (AC, interconect and speaker) since they also play a major role here.

As I said, Siltech worked for my system, but I have also heard that Nirvana works well.

From that point, you can play with upgrades, better frames, subs as time/financlals allow - these are keepers for sure.

Regards,

Fernando

Sounds like most of your issues are set-up issues. I don't know what Jim Smith's view of the following would be, but I heard a pair of the big JBL K2s a while back where the speakers were literally in the corners of the room, on the long wall, toed-in pretty significantly, to aim at a listening position that was about as far away as you are describing, and they sounded wonderful (using my turntable and a small ViVa integrated, which I think is more euphonic than my Lamm set-up). Taking a look at the pics of your room, and how you describe it, I'm wondering if you could experiment a little to get greater effective distance by spreading the speakers farther apart and toe-ing in more.
I would think that the 1.5 m distance that the dealer had between the speakers was not enough, and I agree that the image coheres at a listening distance greater than 9 ft, which I barely exceed in my set-up. My biggest tuning issue was not placement, though, but the right settings on the woofs, once I had the electronics and cables to my satisfaction.

As the OP of this thread I would like to thank all of you for the help you have given. Since I posted the thread, I have had a chance to listen to the Avantgarde Duo's. In a couple of weeks I will be flying to Sydney to listen to the Acapella's.

I lugged by heavy Cary 805AE monoblock's to the dealer to have a listen. I was very impressed with the but with a couple of caveats.

Firstly, the dealer was unable to find a bass setting that made me happy. Either too boomy, or too hollow, or too little or too much. He told me that it takes quite a bit of time to set them up and i'm sure he's right.

Secondly, the horns do not integrate well unless you have the luxury of a large room and you can sit far away from them. Just walking back from the horns, I can hear them just about to start to come together at about 2m. 3m is better, but at 4m they sounded fantastic. The trouble is, I don't have that much space in my listening room. They would have to be flat up against the wall and that introduces its own problems.

Thirdly, the soundstage projected was too tall and not wide enough. I experimented with toe-in which cured the width issues somewhat, but I think the speakers had to be placed further apart than where the dealer had them (1.5m apart). I mentioned to my friend that it was like watching a movie with the wrong aspect ratio.

Apart from these caveats, the speaker really impressed me. I liked the easy sound, the incredible dynamics, and the subtlety they are capable of. I think that all the above concerns of mine would disappear with the "right" listening room and careful setup. Unless the Acapella's in Sydney do better, I will be looking at buying a pair of these speakers.

I own a pair of AG UNOs and agree with many here, specially regarding proper placement, top-notch electronics (no - you wont save on amps if you get AG - I have been there) and the sub-horn alchemy.

i) AG is quite directional, I am still fine tunning after six months!
ii) AG cables make a difference in the subs, I have tried a dozen, Siltech worked for me.
iii) AG are addictive, whatever I hear, including a friends pipedreams or Avalon Eidoleons, sound boxed and laid back in comparison - (eg. yes, there is an AG "sound").

My next step is to try Magellan VIII subs (thanks for reading this post) - A good friend of mine is comming tomorrow to compare my system with his (Acappellas involved) - will post his remarks shortly after.

Enjoy!

Fernando

Thanks Jim, I'll try that. My pre went back to the factory for some up dates. My system will be down for a while. I'll give that a try as soon as it gets back.
Steve.

Jim, are you agreeing with my sub placement as an acceptable trade off.

Unfortunately, I can't agree or disagree. Without being in your room, and seeing what placement works best, I can't possibly know.

Have you tried inverting the polarity on all 4 subs, to see if that's an improvement? Sometimes with them located behind the horns, it'll help.

If you can't run pink noise with a 1/3 octave RTA, then play some recordings with simply miked solo vocals. If female vocal, use one that's fairly low. The ubiquitous Diana Krall can work.

Listen with all of the subs in one polarity. Note how present the vocalist is.

Then invert the subs. Without adjusting the volume control, play the same recording again.

Very often, one way will sound a bit hollow, and the other way will sound more palpable and present. Hollow is phase cancellation, so you don't want that configuration.

If you're using a jumper to go over to a pair of subs per channel, just invert the polarity at the amp end. It'll take care of both. Obviously, do this for both channels.

How do you set your subs and horns in your room. Could you please include dimensions.

What happens in any room is only a function of that room, and usually will have little bearing on another installation. So I'd prefer not to introduce any potentially confusing tips that may likely cause more trouble than they solve...

Incidentally, this technique is not at all unique to Avantgardes. I remember going through a similar process with the Mark Levinson HQD (Hartley subs, Quad mids, Decca tweeters) system in 1978. And countless systems since.

A lot has changed since then, but the basic laws of physics still have to be obeyed... :)

Best regards,

Jim Smith