Wow, that's why I love this forum ... thank you everyone for your detailed responses. So far most of you think that the Avantgardes would be a better choice given that I only have 50W of SET power to drive the speakers. Actually, I own a pair of 805AE's (not 805C's) which can deliver up to 70W when fitted with the 211 valves. It just so happens that I prefer the sound of the 845's, and in this configuration the amplifier makes 50W. Markxii, what amp do you think would be a good match for the Acapella Violons?
Tvad, you are the first to mention the "Avantgarde sound". I have spoken to a few other audiophiles who have heard the Avantgarde and they do say that it has a certain type of sound. I'm not the type who will insist on an absolute lack of coloration ... in fact I do not mind a bit of coloration provided it makes my type of music sound better. But my other sources also indicate that the type of coloration Avantgarde introduces is harsh and trebly, as you seem to indicate. As my room is already quite "live", I am concerned that this may contribute detrimentally to the music.
Docsavage, it will not be possible to audition the speakers with my amps. The dealer is in a different city, so if I want to audition the speakers i will have to fly there. Not that I mind, considering that the asking price is not small! But you can imagine the difficulty of lugging a pair of Cary monoblocks on a plane! If you think I am insane, the queue starts right there, behind my wife :) |
Markxii, the Violons I have the opportunity to purchase are the "high" versions. Strange, I thought that the next version up came with an active subwoofer. Maybe i'm wrong! (that wouldn't be a first!)
Whart - by the way, nice Lamborghini :) I'm a bit of a Porsche man myself though! Given that you had Quads before, I was wondering what you thought of the imaging/transparency compared to them? I have heard Quads and so far these are the speakers which have impressed me the most in terms of mids and trebles. The only downside of the Quads is that they did very badly with orchestra when asked to play at higher volumes.
Cmo, I have actually rearranged the room since I took a picture for A'gon. The system now fires down the length of the room, and it's a pretty big room - 8' high, 18' wide and 30' long. I can afford to pull the speakers 3-4' out of the wall (and in fact I have).
Kurt_tank, could you please explain what you didn't like about the Avantgardes?
Thanks for your input, docsavage. So far, people seem to think that the Acapella's have a markedly better midrange/highs, but the Avantgardes are more efficient and more dynamic. Seems like a good summary to me. |
As the OP of this thread I would like to thank all of you for the help you have given. Since I posted the thread, I have had a chance to listen to the Avantgarde Duo's. In a couple of weeks I will be flying to Sydney to listen to the Acapella's.
I lugged by heavy Cary 805AE monoblock's to the dealer to have a listen. I was very impressed with the but with a couple of caveats.
Firstly, the dealer was unable to find a bass setting that made me happy. Either too boomy, or too hollow, or too little or too much. He told me that it takes quite a bit of time to set them up and i'm sure he's right.
Secondly, the horns do not integrate well unless you have the luxury of a large room and you can sit far away from them. Just walking back from the horns, I can hear them just about to start to come together at about 2m. 3m is better, but at 4m they sounded fantastic. The trouble is, I don't have that much space in my listening room. They would have to be flat up against the wall and that introduces its own problems.
Thirdly, the soundstage projected was too tall and not wide enough. I experimented with toe-in which cured the width issues somewhat, but I think the speakers had to be placed further apart than where the dealer had them (1.5m apart). I mentioned to my friend that it was like watching a movie with the wrong aspect ratio.
Apart from these caveats, the speaker really impressed me. I liked the easy sound, the incredible dynamics, and the subtlety they are capable of. I think that all the above concerns of mine would disappear with the "right" listening room and careful setup. Unless the Acapella's in Sydney do better, I will be looking at buying a pair of these speakers. |
Thanks for all your help guys. I found that most people's description of the sound from all 3 speakers I listened to was pretty accurate. Very reassuring that I can trust the ears on AudioGon.
The shopping experience has been a positive one, with all the dealers treating me with courtesy. Only one dealer did not know how to set up the speakers properly which was a bit of a disappointment.
At the moment I am thinking of how to amplify the speakers because I suspect that my Cary SET's will not have enough juice. Probably get a pair of Cary 500MB's to run the bass section because I have heard that the 500MB's are very similar tonally to the rest of the Cary range.
As my preamp does not have dual RCA out, I will have to run an RCA splitter. One pair of RCA leads will run directly to the CAD-805AE. The other pair will run through an analog equalizer into the 500MB. This will help match the gain of the 500MB to the 805AE, and provide me with some ability to tune the bass to my liking. |
If you want to read more of my thoughts on this speaker, I have posted them in another forum. Here is the link:
http://www.planetaudio.com.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=2422
Fernando, I noticed that the dealer was using what appeared to be normal electric lamp wire rather than proper speaker cable to wire the sub to the mid/tweeter horns. Of course I could be wrong, but when they are that thin and have multistranded copper and no spade/banana plug terminations, you have to wonder. I'm not a big believer in speaker cables (having never heard much of a difference in my system) but i'll keep an open mind on this one.
Whart you are right - mostly setup issues. But I am very careful about how I select my speaker! It is easier to just buy the right speaker than to have to demolish walls and extend rooms!
Just a couple more questions.
1. The Duo's might be too big for my room. What do people think of the Uno's? Are they just like a Duo, but smaller? If I order a pair, i will probably get them with the optional SUB225 module.
2. What about the Uno variants, like the Uno Nano? |
Hornguys, what are the main sonic differences between the Uno's and the Duo's? The dealer does not have a set of Uno's, so if I want them i'll have to order them out of sight. The specs say that the diameter of each horn is 70cm less which would help a lot in getting them to fit in my room.
Joey_v, at the moment I am renting and looking to buy a nice house in Melbourne. Don't know if you have been here, but the closer you want to live to the city, the smaller the houses are! It's only out in the 'burbs where you can get a decent sized house. So in short, I don't know how big my next listening room is going to be. |
Thanks for your responses Kotjac and Fernando. Kotjac, your comment about the Avantgardes being superior from 800Hz and below is very interesting indeed. So is your comment about the selection of amplifier being critical.
I suppose this raises the obvious question - would the Violons benefit from being bi-amped? I know the Violons have bi-wirable speaker posts. I am assuming that this seperates the crossover from midrange/tweeter and subwoofer modules, with the crossover frequency being 800Hz. Do you think the Violons would benefit from say, my Cary's driving the mid/tweeter and a seperate amplifier (with volume control) driving the subwoofer module?
I ask this, because I know a guy who specializes in making custom plate amplifiers. |
Okay, I have finally managed to audition every speaker I have mentioned in this thread. I started the journey in February when I made the first post. I just returned from my trip to Sydney, where I heard the Acapella Violons and the Avantgarde Uno's. I have already heard the Duo's (see above). Here are my impressions.
Uno's: sound just like the Duo's. The dealer initially had them hooked up to a pair of Audio Note Soro SE's and it sounded absolutely terrible. I thanked him for his time and was about to walk out, when he suggested to try a Graaf OTL power amp. So I sat down again and let him make the swap. Let's just say that the speakers now sounded acceptable. The nasal quality was gone, the dynamics had improved, and the sound was more natural. I was pretty impressed.
The next day, I visited another dealer and listened to the Violons. A Metronome CDP and a pair of Wavac 805 SET's were used - chosen because they are roughly similar to my Cary 805's.
When I walked into the room, the dealer had some music playing softly. Let's just say that my jaw dropped - the sound was so pure, so clean, so effortless - it was like nothing I have ever heard before. It made me realize that all other speakers sound coloured by comparison.
The midrange was married very effectively to the tweeter. I was looking for a seam where the midrange meets the tweeter but I could not hear it, despite knowing exactly where it is. At the top end, the midrange almost matches the tweeter for speed, and gets a little bit lazier at the bottom.
The bass was inadequate though. Not very loud and rather boomy. I suspect this was more the fault of the SET than the speakers themselves. 55W of SET isn't quite enough.
So, I ordered the Violons. They will arrive in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, I need to think about how I am going to drive them with my own meagre SET's ... |
Greg, why is mono-amping the most ruinous solution? I would have thought that it would be cheaper to mono-amp than to bi-amp?
I found it rather difficult to understand why also. That is why I asked for the crossover schematic but the dealer was (understandably) unable to supply this. When I get the speaker, I will be measuring the impedance and dissecting the crossover so that I can get a better idea how best to drive them.
The dealer also recommended NOT biwiring them. I am one of those people who considers biwiring to be, well, unproven. But his comments were a little puzzling.
In any case, my current plan is to simply get the CAD-211AE's. IF I find that that is not enough, there is always scope to borrow a CAD-500MB to try bi-amping (as per my plan above). |
Eljaro, your comment was very astute. You are quite right that the two Avantgarde systems were not set up properly. When I heard the Uno's, the room acoustics was not very good, and the dealer had not found an ideal setup for the subwoofer modules. In fact, when I started listening to the speakers, one of the subs wasn't even turned on. It was only when I complained about the lack of bass that the omission was discovered.
The Uno dealer did have the speakers set up properly, but probably did not hook up amps that would do them justice. No option of bringing my own amps since I had to fly to a different city to hear them.
Dan-ed, the Acapella's were demonstrated with a 55W SET because I specifically requested for an amp similar to mine. Once again, no option of bringing my own amp as the speakers were in Sydney. But it did demonstrate to me that I am unlikely to achieve ideal sound with my current amplification - so I did achieve one of my objectives. At the moment i'm doing a bit of amplifier research. I found an old thread on Audiogon discussing suitable amps for the Violons. When I get my speakers and do some listening, I will decide for sure whether or not I need an amplifier upgrade. Then you will see another post from me on Audiogon :)
The Violons are bi-wirable, although the dealer recommended that I do not do so. He found better results running a single cable to the woofer module, then another length of cable to the midrange horn, and from there to the tweeter module.
Whart - no break in is necessary since these speakers are secondhand and a few years old. I will be able to enjoy them the moment I get them! Unfortunately that won't be for another month ... at the moment I am mobilizing some money and the dealer has to arrange to ship them interstate.
I would like to thank you (and others) for the invaluable help I have received here. And thank you also to everyone who has emailed me ... I now have some new friends from all over the world. The next time you are in sunny Melbourne, make sure you drop me a line. |
Kotjac, I know the Supratek guy. In fact I knew him when I was back in uni and when he was first starting up his company. I interviewed him and published his comments on another forum.
Yes, a Cabernet Dual is certainly on the cards. Will have to see.
Interview is here if you are interested:
http://www.stereo.net.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=2550 |
Gregm, thanks for your response. I have been in touch with Rob (rwjp), another AudioGon member. We live in the same city and I have met him. He seems to know you.
I took your comments to the Acapella dealer. He said that he has tried amplifying the Violons with the following configurations:
- bi-amped with identical valve top and bottom
- bi-amped with valve on top, SS on bottom
- bi-amped with identical SS top and bottom
- mono-amped with SS
- mono-amped with valve
He told me that the best result was always obtained by mono-amping, and has something to do with the design of the Acapella crossover. He cannot supply the schematic for me to examine myself ... although it may be possible for me to do a bit of surgery once I get the speakers to look at the crossover design. He can't even tell me what the slopes are. ALl that I know, is that they cross over at 800 and 4500Hz.
At the moment I have abandoned my bi-amping idea and will probably upgrade my amp to the Cary CAD-211AE. 110W of Class A/B push-pull. I would like some feedback on whether other members think this is a good idea, or whether I should just buy the Cary CAD-500MB's (500W SS) to put on the bottom? |
Essentialaudio, the dealer demo'ed the speakers with Wavac 805's (55W SET's). I asked for these amps because they are "sort of" similar in power to my Cary CAD-805AE's. I know people recommend Einstein OTL, but unfortunately these are not imported into Australia. The dealer carries the rest of the Einstein line, but specifically not the OTL's. Which is unfortunate.
Tbg, is this the website for Exemplar?
http://www.exemplaraudio.com/
Can't seem to find anything about the Statement amp there. In any case, I don't think it's available in Australia which rules it out. |
After getting some advice from several people I will upgrade my Cary CAD-805AE's to the CAD-211AE's. 50W to 110W - should be enough. I hope! |
Kotjac, I have heard that the Einstein OTL's are the best solution as Acapella themselves use it. However, they suffer from a very serious drawback - you can't get them in Australia!
In any case, since I last wrote I have already ordered my Cary CAD-211AE's. Hopefully that should be enough. If not enough, then I will (gulp) have to bi-amp them.
Gregm, I already have biwirable speaker cable so it won't cost me extra to bi-wire if I wanted to. In fact it would cost me extra to mono-wire them as I would have to buy a new pair of cables. The credit card is about to jump out of my pocket and run away screaming from all the punishment I have meted out to it! |
Well the speakers arrived yesterday. You can see a lot of pictures here:
http://www.stereo.net.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=3088&st=0
Also more pictures in my virtual system.
I was very surprised when I hooked them up to my Cary CAD-805AE amps. I was expecting to hear lean anemic bass, but surprise surprise - there is actually more bass than my ProAc D38. And the bass has an effortless sound to it as well. Too bad that i've already ordered and paid for my new amps, because i'm starting to think an amp upgrade may be unnecessary. But it would be interesting to see what improvements the CAD-211AE will bring.
The other interesting observation is that these are 91dB/W/m - less than the ProAc's (quoted at 92dB/W/m). Yet I don't have to crank the volume as much to achieve the same loudness.
I was chatting to my neighbour this morning and she said that she didn't know that I could play the violin so well. I just grinned. Little does she know :) Tonight she will find out how well I can conduct a symphonic orchestra! |
Oh sorry TBG. I just realized that you have to be a member of that forum before you can see the pictures. I was talking about the Acapella Violons.
UNFORTUNATELY, yesterday one of the tweeters suddenly became much more quiet than the other one. Even with the volume control maxed, it only barely manages to put out enough volume. The size of the plasma flame is also a lot smaller. I made a panicked call to the dealer, and he suggested that I change the valves. As I lack the correct Allen key, I am up early this morning so I can visit the hardware store the moment it opens.
*sighs* |
Tbg, I have no idea how that flame is generated. Maybe i'll fire off (no pun intended) an email to Acapella to ask.
It is very early in the morning here in Australia (5am when I posted that message above). I just turned on the speakers and EUREKA both flames are alive again. I'm not sure what's causing this annoying inconsistency but I will get it sorted out for sure. |
