Can't speak to the Acapella but can give you insight into the Duo, which I bought a little more than a year ago, after more than 30 years of Quad electostat (57/Crosby 63) listening.
The horn 'honk' is virtually nonexistent if the upstream equipment is chosen carefully. For example, I was running a Steelhead straight in, without a linestage, and while the purity of the signal was undoubted, and the bass incredible, it sounded a little bright on certain passages, and sometimes shouty. After installing a Lamm linestage, the bass seemed to recede and the mids and highs got softer and more mellow. But, I don't think I am missing anything in the way of musical information by this change. And, the point here is that it is not a question of 'bad' equipment vs. 'good' equipment, but rather matching to the strengths of the various components.
Placement- I have a odd room, and am barely far enough away from the speakers at my seating area, but they are properly set up, according to some tricks from Jim Smith, the former US distributor and the image is uncanny. There is still a 'sweet spot' though, where everything comes together in correct perspective. (The Trick has to do with visually aligning the bolts on the stand from your listening position as a guide to toe-in- I can explain in greater detail if you like). The speakers, with the upstream equipment I am using, have a very dimensional sound stage, and image well, but that is not even the half of it- those are hi-fi virtues that are intended to compensate for the otherwise 'reproduced' quality of most systems. The thing I have been experiencing lately has to do with a non-mechanical continuousness in the flow of the music which simply does not sound reproduced in a mechanical sense. Much of this may have to do with the equipment upstream, including the Lamm amps. But, even as originally set up and before lot's of fiddling with associated equipment, the speakers have an 'alive' quality that transcends most hi-fi criteria - in this sense they bring you music. Not suggesting that the Acapellas cannot do the same, just limited to my experience with the Duos. The latter are very revealing, and unforgiving of any anomalies in the signal, or AC power, given their efficiency. You will have to work like the devil to lower your noise floor, but it will be well worth the trouble. Good luck. |
As regards the woofers, and integration on the Duos, I have had to fool around with this because, out of the box, I was not pleased. The horns, once broken in, sound very open and alive, but the woofer had two apparent shortcomings- (1)it simply sounded 'different' than the horns, without the same 'air' and tonality-- a matching problem, if you will and (2) while I could get some serious dbs going on dynamics, the bass just didn't have the same impact as a real live music situation in areas such as kickdrum. My reference here is a little rock, blues and folk club down the street from my house- as I've mentioned before, go into a place like this, even when the band is just getting ready and listen to the WHACK of the kickdrum. THen, try to tell yourself that your hi-fi is lifelike. The dynamics of this are incredible and may just not be reproduceable, at least on vinyl. (I spent my share of time hanging out in studios, too, and yes, those big efficient monitors can give you that kind of 'thwack' with power, but everything over them sounds 'amped up' and hyperbright- not real).
So, where am I at on this now- the blend/match is much better, partly due to amp change (Lamm 18 watt SET) and cables K-S Emotion, including the power cords on the Duo woofers. The bass has depth, air and tonality, and coheres more with the rest of the range. The dynamic THWACK- sounds very good, but still not real at lifelike levels, to my ears. But, so far, I'm not sure I've ever heard a hi-fi do that. |
I know it is unfair to bring price into the equation when we are striving for the uncompromised sound. Just wanted to interject a little 'levitation' into the proceedings, to paraphrase one of my favorite actors. |
Amfibius: A comparison with the Quads yields what I like best about the Avantgardes (and probably to a good extent, horn speakers in general). The coherence of the Quads is hard to beat- to my ears the 57 is better than the later Quads. (I have not heard the latest crop, but my 'late' pair is a Crosby-mod 63, which improved the bass, and overall dynamics, yet is still not as natural in its see-through quality as the 57).
This exacting perspective becomes critical because the speakers cannot reproduce dynamics on any big scale- they sound congested on orchestral and rock- everything is in miniature on large scale works. (The speakers shine on simple, small scale performances, jazz combos, female vocal with less than a full orchestra behind it.)
The Avantgardes simply do not suffer these limitations. They are very dynamic, and bring an 'alive' quality to the proceedings which makes criteria like 'imaging' much less important. (Yes, they throw a very convincing 3d image across a wider spectrum of the musical bandwidth but at this point, you are not listening for 'imaging'- instead, you are hearing the instruments or voice, standing free of constraint). Are they 'transparent'?Yes, in ways that a lover of a good electrostat would be more than happy with.
Cars- have had a couple P-cars, 996 GT2 Clubsport and currently have a 993 C4 Cabrio. Judging by your name, the Amphicar must be on your short list. :) |
One other question, which is a cost/benefit one (how dare I?).
THe Duos, used are 7k dollars or so. A decent amp to drive them less than that. What is the ballpark cost-used- of the recommended Acapella set-up with appropriate amplification? |
TBG- noticed you are selling your Campagnilles. What's next for you? And, in fairness to Sdrs, the speakers do require critical set-up and associated equipment. Your point, that even with all that, they have shortcomings, does not suprise me, nor should it. None of these things are without limitations of some sort, some of which can be rectified. For example, what's up with the horn woofers that AvG makes? Never heard 'em, not that I have room for those, but AvG does make a better alternative to the monkey coffins. I have also heard a few people talk about the need for more rigid stands, decoupled from the woofers. Again, that kind of tweaking may be worth the trouble.
Avantgarde lovers and critics- I love the Duos and what it has demanded from the rest of my system, in terms of lowering the noise threshold, working on my AC, playing with grounding, experimenting with cables, and finding a synergistic, musical front end, preamp and amplifier components. I do think that the speaker has some shortcomings, but the level of musical enjoyment I am now getting is extraordinary. |
Jim- nice to see you on this thread. You certainly made a difference in my audio life, and I had been around the block a few times myself. My travails with the bass integration issue may speak more to issues of set-up than to any real flaw in the design of the speaker. I originally set the woofer frequency range too low, based on my past experience with subwoofers and the Quads. But, as you point out, these woofers are supposed to play higher than a true subwoofer. Having said that, though, is the setting you are discussing as an approximate starting point, eg 140 hz, equivalent to 10- 10.30 o'clock on the dial?
(The manual contained a little card, showing the setting at noon).
Be well, and the invitation still stands if you get to NY.
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Sounds like most of your issues are set-up issues. I don't know what Jim Smith's view of the following would be, but I heard a pair of the big JBL K2s a while back where the speakers were literally in the corners of the room, on the long wall, toed-in pretty significantly, to aim at a listening position that was about as far away as you are describing, and they sounded wonderful (using my turntable and a small ViVa integrated, which I think is more euphonic than my Lamm set-up). Taking a look at the pics of your room, and how you describe it, I'm wondering if you could experiment a little to get greater effective distance by spreading the speakers farther apart and toe-ing in more.
I would think that the 1.5 m distance that the dealer had between the speakers was not enough, and I agree that the image coheres at a listening distance greater than 9 ft, which I barely exceed in my set-up. My biggest tuning issue was not placement, though, but the right settings on the woofs, once I had the electronics and cables to my satisfaction. |
Ambfib- you do not have to be a "believer" to hear profound differences between the factory supplied jumpers and after market cables. It is not subtle. It sounds like the dealer did not show the speakers off to anywhere near their capablity. I think you would be astounded if they are set up well. (And I say this, not as an advocate just for the Avantgardes vs. the Acapellas or any other brand, but simply because I have experienced the differences as I have changed out wire, repositioned the speakers, played with the woofer tuning, added acoustic treatment to my room, experimented with different combinations of preamp/amp and long/short wire configurations, as well as brands of wire).
I cannot give you any insight into the real world experience with Uno or its variants- I have none. |
Well, the trick, as you know, is working the pieces together to make for a coherent whole that is, if not greater than the sum of its parts, than at least not limited by any one of them.
Thanks for reporting back, and let us know what your experience is with the amps. I went from Audiopax 88s (@ 30 watts per) to the Lamm ML2 (@ 18 watts per) and found a significant improvement; granted, there is also a big price difference, but not so much when the equipment is bought 2d hand.
Enjoy your speakers. I'll bet they wind up improving as they break in and you learn more about how they should be set up in in your room. |
