Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Wig - looks intriguing. Congrats on what sounds like a great find. There are a few special dac’s our there that truly perform above their price point. Think Schitt, Mojo, Empirical Audio, Exogal and a few others just beyond the tip of my brain.... 

Great opportunities for those without unlimited resources exist, and finding these pearls makes this hobby that much better! 

Guys,

Here’s the secret I have been keeping! The DAC that outclassed the Audio Note and at a fraction of the cost:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/sw1x-audio-design-dac-ii-absolute-top-tier-ref-nos-dac

Wig

Tkchaq - I tried and reported on the Bordeaux. They are awesome. I have a set under my Torus power conditioner. 

Elizabeth - although the inexpensive tweaks can sometimes make an improvement, they can also make the sound worse. Just because it’s rubber and can be used as a footer doesn’t mean it should be. Every piece in your system should be tested in and out to determine if it makes it better or worse. Cheap doesn’t make it bad though. Bad makes it bad. 👍🏻

I just got Isoacoustic Orea indigo footers under my dac and Allnic H3000 phono stage It works great so I order more Orea Bordeaux for my Allnic amp and Iso Pucks for Aurender server and H3000 power supply I think you (Mattnshilp) better try Orea Bordeaux since you like Gaia . I think for the price Orea Its almost miracle. I am very satisfied with result.

LMAO....come on...just dig a new basement in the foundation......

:).....You would put the amps in the room next to teh speakers and JUST worry about a platform and footers for those two.  Everything else would be simple to set up.  The only long run would be the preamp to amps run.  I don't know if you even have the room for that and even if you did, you wouldn't easily be able to figure all of that out.  That was more for how this dealer set up his runs etc... (the one I told you about in Cali).  I think it was near Chatsworth or in Chatsworth.  

I just will always remember that back then, he realized there was a vibration problem and spent as much time on high end cable as he did vibration control.  His system sounded incredible and I forget what the heck he was even running.

There’s pretty much no way anyone would
be able to put the amps in a different room and keep the speaker run under 8’. Unless you put them right below the speakers in the room under the room with the speakers in them. 

It would have to be the preamp to amp run. But this conversation is moot, since I won’t be doing that. ;)

If you can keep the speaker cable runs under 8', you should be ok.  Longer is worse as we all know.  You could put the amps in the room with 3' runs and just run the interconnects from the outside.  Use the cable lifters on them and you will be fine.  It's all better than spending all that money on a 20k plus rack, shelves and then footers for most.  Just two shelves and footers for the amps.  your amps are so solid, that I wonder how much difference the footers will do for them.  

Downside is long cable runs......

Matt, what was that convo we had about this last week?/?? LMAO....;)....I wasn't kidding when I said that was the best sound isolation I've ever heard and it was 100% vinyl.  It made the world of difference.  They were outstanding rooms too of course.

Nitewulf- I was thinking zero G actually. But I get nauseous.... 😜

i did consider moving my rack out of the room to be honest. That’s ideal. 

Have you thought about creating an insulated room suspended from a crane so it's decoupled from the earth?

outstanding stuff.  Yes, that plinth of theirs needs to be used on other top products.  it's not the most difficult thing to have something like that milled and at least offer it for sale, lol....Pretty cool though.

Quick Magico Qpod evaluation:

Under the Memory Player, the HRS Nimbus gives a better sense of dynamic presence and tightens the imaging. Makes the music more engaging with a better sense of pace and rhythm. That sheet metal case of the MP definitely enjoys the rubber! I have yet to try the Symposium Ultra shelf and rollerblocks under the MP yet though. I’m REALLY curious!!! It’s hard to move that stuff alone, but I’ve got to do that!!

I love the form factor of the Qpod.

I’d put the Qpods with the Stillpoint Ultra 5’s, Vortex and Ansuz Darkz. All excellent. Can’t really go wrong with any of them. They will all have a subtle voice of their own. I need to get them under the DAC to identify that voice though.

I’m still not certain that the Qpods are balanced and smooth through the full frequency spectrum. I think they may highlight mids and highs a tad. Await further testing and I need some other ears to confirm what I have heard thus far.

I just checked. There’s a lot of effort that went into the footers and plinth for the Burmester Preamp. The footer is milled and has a carbon fiber cone on the bottom that sits on a carbon fiber disc set into a milled hollow in the plinth. The footer is not attached with a single central screw. Each footer has 3 screws 120 degrees offset (ie. In a triangle). There was a LOT of thought and effort that went into vibrational damping. And it shows since it is abjectly immune to any resonance control devices.

Interestingly, the Burmester amps just have pretty standard footers screwed in and respond well to after market footers.

CTSooner - you are correct. It seams to be impervious to footers. I shall still try the Qpods and the Shun Mook though. Just to confirm. Might have something to do with the massive plinth the preamp sits on. I do need to try footers between the plinth and preamp. Just to try.....

So you are saying that nothing beast super..........Gottcha!

Just a very difficult task to compare the footers and shelves.  So many variables. What I'm finding most interesting is that no matter what he does to his Burmeister Preamp that sits on it's own solid steel base, is that none of these seem to matter (Matt???).  Maybe more manufacturers need to work on vibration control in their gear and at least offer upgrades for bases......

Toetap, the superballs. 

Thanks for the input!!!

@mattnshilp, we’re your tests done with the Symposium Superballs or the standard tungsten balls?

@mattnshilp, thank you for the link and I look forward to your further evaluations.

I don’t have the Shun Mooks GDR yet. The check is on its way to Shun Mook. I did just get in a set of the Magico Qpods. So I’ll compare those two to the Symposium when the GDR arrive and report.

I posted a pretty thorough video about Footers, Shelves and Racks on my YouTube channel:

https://youtu.be/12Db2UCjnC0

@mattnshilp, I have the IsoAcoustics and Symposiums on the way. How are you finding the Shun Mook’s? My guess is that they won’t be as neutral?

Whoa! What? Hey, I swear that looks like carbon fiber sleeves on those cables. Not too crazy about the big shiny square do dads.

@geoffkait all their equipment is bling, like these pc’s

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Dalby+audio+power+cable&client=safari&hl=en-gb&prmd=si...:

Very expensive, sort of Skogrand territory I think. I’ll stick to Sablon, affordable S.O.T.A. which is quite understated and comes without any packaging whatsoever. More my style.

Keen to try Symposium, coming soon.

I just ran across what you’re referring to. Looks like a really really good copy of a Shun Mook Giant Diamond Resonator. Very nice!

I believe they are not offering those ones, the current model uses a type of hardwood. I’m not a dealer or have any interest in Dalby, although that may change if they are worth the money. They make cables as well but mucho expensive.

Unless I’m missing something the $3K Dalby feet do not employ ebony or even wood of any kind. Better check it out. 🙄 - your friend and humble scribe (onwards and upwards!)

The D7-CBF isolation feet preserves all of the delicate nuances within the recording whilst spreading the widest holographic soundstage. We recommend using 3 D7-CBF isolation feet with 2 positioned at the rear and one central at the front. You may need to experiment on absolute placement depending on where the weight load is within each component.

D7-CBF60 Feet DNA

• 3mm wall thickness carbon fibre suspending solid brass parts
• 3 point ceramic bearing decoupling system
• 9 carat gold finish over solid brass
• Compound reservoir to eliminate vertical vibration
• Precision brass supporting the carbon fibre at both ends
• Optional anodised black finish on request
• Available in sets of 3 and 4

Working parameters: Turntables, Power amplifiers and power supplies.

Conservative rating of up to: 75kg (165.3Ibs) per isolation foot

Price: $3000

Just got off the phone to Dalby, they do still exist and they seem to be doing rather well outside the U.K. One of their many products is a footer at £3.5k a set. 

Matt, you know I was kidding....well sort of.  I WILL get a few pieces as I have a couple of nice pieces of Gabon in the basement.  I was actually told by a few that they use them under their gear.  I may as well try ;)....  I have heard the same things about Shun Mook for years.  It can't defy physic's, it's just that we don't know enough about them.  I wonder if they stumbled onto how they work or if they figured something out that no one else has.  Regardless, it will be interesting to hear your thoughts as always Matt.  

BTW, you have have three pieces of steel AND aluminum piping that is 1.5" in diameter?  I'll even try to mix and match the two materials, ;).....

I honestly can't wait to hear your thoughts on this last (will it be last) round of footers/shelves.  You know how amazed I am at what you are doing here as you are not letting any biases creep in.  It's your ear and your gear, but there is an overall sound that you come up with so that folks can figure out for themselves, what they will like.  That's why this is a 4 year old thread and it's going strong...Very strong.

@mattnshilp 

I thought you would go for four. 😊

Geoffkait - whatever it takes. We’re audiphiles..... we do ridiculous things to get better sound. If I need to spend a bit of time getting the most out of these tweaky bastards then so be it. All in the name of good sound! Huzzah!

i have no intention of knocking anything off. My comment was in regards to CTSooner saying he’s going to try some simple pieces of ebony under his components when I mentioned the Shun Mook product. I simply stated that the Shun Mook Resonators were as far from a block of normal run of the mill ebony as a StillPoint is from a normal cylinder of Steel. 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the Shun Mook Diamond Resonators are even more complicated than the Mpingo disc. Maybe there should be a course on how to knock off Shun Mook resonators. Like the Shun Mook Spatial Kit, that has three Mpingo discs on a wood bracket, the Diamond Resonators have to be all like tricked out when they’re assembled so the separate discs won’t interfere with each other. You know, since they’re directional. Been there done that. I would however, very much like to have a set of Giant Diamond Resonators.

CTSooner/Geoffkait - I’m not trying the Shun Mook Mpingo discs. I’m trying the footers, the Giant Diamond Resonators (GDR) mechanical grounding product. The Mpingo are for room tuning, the GDR are for mechanical grouanding (ie. Footers). 

I just know they are a special type of ebony and then fabricated to a standard. Comparing these to a normal piece of ebony is like comparing a normal cylinder of steel to a StillPoint. 

They have a HUGE following and many have touted them to be the best there is. They are the only footers that defy explanation scientifically, or at least they do to me. So I hold judgement until my ears evaluate them. 

Toerapaudio- holy crap. That’s hysterical! 

Just to be clear... I WON’T BE TRYING THAT!!! 😂😂😂

http://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=85087

Seems two Ultras are better than one and three better than two.

@mattnshilp i agree with your HRS vs Symposium comparison.I've also heard them many times & but on diff setups, unless you don't try & hear it side by side one never gets an idea, also sort the preference. 
Hats off to all the efforts you are putting in & also sharing your observations quite frankly.
Hope you could have also tried the leading edge rack.
@geoffkait i agree with what you say about the shun mook. Needs some tweaking. But i guess will add a bit of flavour which may or may not work , as usually flavours are.

All the best.
Cheers

Here’s the thing. The Shun Mook Mpingo disc is probably not what you think it is. It’s actually two different woods, Gabon ebony and Mpingo wood, a variety of rosewood as I recall. Also, inside the cutout, if you remove the small disc of wood embedded in the disc, lo and behold - a crystal! WTH!

The Mpingo disc is very resonant and is very sensitive to direction, top to bottom but also azimuth. Thus the real Mpingo disc is rather tricky to fabricate, tricky to knock off and tricky to use. Used incorrectly it can easily hurt the sound.

I will cut up a few pieces of ebony and try then by themselves under my DAC/Server and integrated to see what they do.  I know Cardas uses Myrtle for theirs, which is tough to find.

@mattnshilp and @geoffkait , I appreciate your comments on a very interesting subject, keep it rolling. I’m going to be trying out some of the footers you mentioned and others. I will come back with my findings.

As regards speaker isolation, have a look at Sven Boenicke interesting swing base design. The rear of the speaker hangs from steel threads and the front is supported on a ceramic sphere sitting in non ferrous metal cups, might be brass or gunmetal.

With regard to Shun Mook, the design looks very interesting. I have read some comments that Dalby here in the U.K., have used ebony in an even more effective way. I don’t know anything about this brand, they seem rather elusive, if indeed they still exist.

Geoffkait- great post. I needed to read it a few times.  Lol. 

Some definitions :

constrained layer damping - flexing of viscoelastic (VE) material between two layers of a stiff material will generate a shear force on the VE material. The force will stretch the VE material, and the stretching converts the kinetic (acoustic) energy to thermal (heat) energy.

mass on spring damping - loosely, a mass on sprig system implies any system where a mass loads a compressible material, converting kinetic energy into potential energy. 

Viscoelastic materials - Sorbothane is one of the least effective of that type material I’ve worked with -when used in conjunction with a constraining layer form a constrained layer damper, which is not a bad idea for damping the top plate of any isolation stand of the mass on spring variety - the gold standard. There is obviously “residual vibration” on the top plate and the component being isolated due to acoustic wave mechanical interaction, vibration from motor, transformer, etc. in the component and very low frequency seismic vibration transmitted via the isolation system, only partially effective for very low frequencies. Mass on spring. So, to be thorough, two things are needed - effective mass on spring isolation and effective damping of the top plate. Also it’s best to have extremely hard footers like NASA grade ceramics to couple the component to the top plate and to couple the iso stand to the floor or shelf, for extremely fast EXIT of vibration, eschewing rubbery materials altogether.

Ok. Here’s my vibration treatment theory. It’s deducted from observation, logic, quit a bit of research (I have an undergraduate degree in physics) and what I have heard:

Symposium posts on its web site that it is imperative for their shelf system to properly function to have a high transmission efficiency connection between the components chassis and the shelf. This is to allow the system to simultaneously isolate from outside while draining vibratory energy from the component. Symposium relies on foam in the shelf, not rubber. And then wants no rubber elsewhere because it NEEDS to get the energy to the foam to dissipate it. Makes sense. It's a total system design. Use metal footers of some kind, bearing footer devices, or thick solid metal discs to couple the chassis to the shelf so it can do its job. It makes sense. I now realize that THIS is how Critical Mass works as well; and this is why Critical mass recommends you just put the equipment directly on the shelf or use their simple cone footer to couple the chassis to the shelf. Same exact concept. The magic is in the shelf so get ALL the vibrations to the shelf to do its job.

HRS and IsoAcoustics rely on rubber to dissipate the energy. But IsoAcoustics counts of the footers doing it alone. HRS has developed their own system integrated rubber in their footers and their shelves to dissipate the vibrational energy. I think that with rubber there is less thermal distribution. And that with too much rubber it actually seals the vibrational energy in the component as opposed to allowing it to come out and dissipate.

I think that you either should use the HRS footers alone or IsoAcoustics footers alone, unless external vibration is a bigger problem then internal vibration. I think the HRS shelf is a brick wall and doesn't allow vibrational energy IN or OUT. So in a big city, it probably makes a HUGE improvement since the vibration coming from outside is smearing everything and it gets blocked. But it also blocks any internal energy from getting OUT. The HRS footers help to attenuate the energy and relies on the (not HRS) shelf to absorb or diffuse the remaining energy. With the HRS shelf in place it just bounces that energy right back through the footer and into the component, doing more harm then good.

I any rubber based product like Sorbothane and all the other rubber products out there do the same thing. They attenuate and allow the remaining energy to PSS through and dissipate into the shelf below. So the footer alone, depending on the design, can do a really good job of improving isolation and designing vibrational energy from the component. I like using the IsoAcoustics and HRS footers, they work.

Footers like the Magico Qpods (I have a set inbound to audition) and Shunmook footers (also have a set inbound) work similarly. But the Qpod takes an extra step and have a thin layer of (probably) Sorbothane and a Cooper disc which overcomes the poor thermal dissipation of the rubber. The copper theoretically dissipates the heat and makes the aluminum, steel, copper, Sorbothane design more effective at attenuating the vibrational energy then rubber alone. It’s suppsoed to offer a bit of what the Symposium/Critical Mass style shelves do but built right into the footer. I’ll let you know how big a difference that little disc of copper makes. I’m not convinced but ill
let my ears do the judging. Regarding the Shunmook footers, they are a super dense wood and a commercial grade diamond spike. Scientifically, it’s a conundrum. But maybe the density of the ebony they use is perfect to attenuate vibration and dissipate that energy more efficiently then what the other guys use. We shall see....

Footers like standard points and cones, fancy points and cones, StillPoints, Ansuz Darkz, Symposium Rollerblocks, etc all do a great job of coupling the vibrational energy from the rack to the shelf underneath. But by focusing that energy into smaller area it permits some thermal release as the vibrational energy is forced into a volume that can’t contain the vibrational energy without forcing some out as heat. Different companies have come up with different geometric solutions to this and some work VERY well! I have gotten the best results with StillPoints, the Darkz (although I liked the StillPoints more) and Symposium Rollerblocks (but only tried also using their matching shelf). I do honestly think that you probably get more isolation and vibrational attenuation by using this last type of footer and then a shelf from Symposium, Critica Mass, Silent Running, etc.

Then there are designs like Star Sound and Artesani (and the StillPoints rack) where the entire system is built as a single whole with no real shelf. The component is coupled directly to the rack to dissapate heat and vibration, and to isolate. I have heard all three and they work, and work well. Probably amongst the best overall bang for the buck if your looking to replace your whole rack.

Im not sure if that confused you or helped. But it helped me to formulate my thoughts and opinions. As always, thanks for coming along for the ride. Lol.

Dont ask ask me what I decided on yet please. I still need to hear the Qpods and Shunmook footers. And more importantly, I need to decide if I can move my rack to the front of my room without deleterious effects. But I feel like I’m getting closer!!!!

Also totally agree with you on the Isoacoutics stuff, just amazing for the money. 

Did an initial test of three pucks at $60 for the entire set vs a set of the older Stillpoints which were over $300 and we thought the Isoacoustics were just as good if not better.

We were telling people about these findings months ago. 

The pucks under a set of bookshelf speakers too a set of ATC and Elac to another level.

It amazes us how some people on these forums think vibration isolation doesn't or can't make a difference on anything other than a turntable. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Hello Matt,

I have to say I am not surprised by the HRS vs the Symposisum.

We did a shoot out of the HRS Damping plate $1,800.00 which is the actual shelf of the HRS stands vs a Stillpoints spider platfom which cost $800 and we had the exact same experience. The Stillpoints seemed to make everything more in focus and improved the micro dynamics over the HRS.

So for years we were working with the Stillpoints products, now it seems that there racks have gone up in price so much we are looking at alternatives

We are looking to add an Osris rack to our reference room as it seems to be one of the best designed racks out there and the price seems reasonable compared with some of the other reference racks so we should talk.

Just got our Davinci 2 and are burning it in, wow, is it incredible.

Love to catch up.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

WARNING, this post is GOING to piss people off!!! I am sorry. The opinions I am about to state are mine and mine alone. Please don’t tear me a new you’know’what or start flaming. I am just stating my opinion heard in my room, with my related accessories, on my system....

You have been warned!

- - - -

My friend came over today. We listened again; just compared Symposium shelf/footers and HRS shelf/footers . Used many different styles of music, spent quite a bit of time. Switched between the two several times (what a PITA, but worth it!). The combo shelf/footer has clearly proven to surpass the performance gains of any footer only system.

I definitely prefer the Symposium system (Ultra Platform and double stack roller blocks). It’s clean, neutral, fast, gives amazing attack and decay and the soundstage and imaging are holographic. And I’m not sure how, but it significantly lowers the noise floor. The HRS does not lower the noise floor, in fact I think it’s adding to it. It didn’t strike me until we switched back from HRS to Symposium for like the 4th time.

I think that’s what makes the HRS sound like it’s giving “more” in comparison, I think it’s coloring the sound. It’s “more” because it’s adding “more” to the reproduction. I think that the HRS footers, on their own, are a better solution then with the shelf. I think there is too much rubber if you add footers and shelves, to be quite honest. The sound HRS gives is big, bold, dynamic, MORE!!! Sounds awesome with anything punchy and dynamic. HRS sounds great on everything to be honest (the rack/shelf/footer equivalent of really good horns), but the purity and neutrality in combination with the blackest background I have ever heard, from the Symposium, was what finally uncovered what I hear the HRS was doing. I think Peter from Symposium may be right (he hates any rubber in a rack/footer/shelf system). A touch of rubber may be ok, but HRS REALLY relies on it heavily. The Symposium makes my system sound the best it ever has, and my friend today was the one who said it.

I juts ordered a set of elusive ShunMook Giant footers, touted by many to be the best of the best. I am also trying to arrange to audition a set of Magico Qpods. Of course, both would be implemented on the Symposium Ultra shelf or on the Osiris rack, as I’m leaning heavily in that direction. I will play with a few footers on that shelf to see what’s best, but the combo of Symposium Ultra shelf and double sandwich rollerblocks has impressed me most thus far.

On the inexpensive, holy cow are they good and they are only HOW MUCH, category is the IsoAcoustics Gaia and Orea. If you are looking for 95# of the performance for practically nickels on the dollar compared to the expensive stuff, you can NOT do better then IsoAcoustics!!!

Thanks for the update Matt, keep that system burning!

Sorry guys. The Mojo is playing in the background. Benjamin had said it was well
broken in but had some parts upgraded before he sent it to me. I’m a pathologic believer in extended burn in to give everything its best performance. So it’s cooking. And I lost over a week of no power from the storms. I also, admittedly, needed to do this footer/shelf shootout as some of the gear is on short term loan from some local dealers who need it back. I’m listening one more time to the Symposium and HRS this Wednesday and then giving the Mojo a nice long listen. First impressions were very good. I’ll Report more shortly. Sorry. 

Benjamin also said he’s trying to get me his server. I’ll keep you updated on that as well. 

amg56

May be that's the US way, but we don't do that in Australia. Please lets be civil and well meaning in our conduct, or I'm out of here.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Mate!

grannyring

What’s not civil on this thread? All good here and hopefully in the US.

+1

Matt very cool.  Can't wait to hear what you come up with.  

I haven't seen any further mention of the Mojo DAC after it was received and reportedly powered up several weeks ago, also curious about it's performance relative to Matt's other contenders. Any update? TIA