I'm likely not the only one just dyin' to hear the results of the ODSE vs DS.
Pins and needles... Like a long, good movie, you just want to know how it ends! |
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Interesting spin on things. I think most folks following this thread realize it's what Matt likes in HIS system. As he said, he's just sharing what he hears and if anyone is spending this kind of money based on what Matt thinks, then you deserve what you get. This doesn't seem to me to be about what you should buy for yourself. I realize the manufactures want positive free press in the thread, but why shouldn't they.
As for 50 years following audio, so what? I have been following it close since 69 myself. I get out and hear a ton of products and like to think I have an idea of what things sound life VS live (yes, I listen to live whenever I can). That makes me no expert. I once told a group of sales people I trained that you newebies should never be concerned with someone saying they have 20 years in the industry. To me, most of those folks have one year of experience 20 times. Not saying that TGB (of whatever the name is) doesn't have a ton of real experience, but some of your statements aren't those made by someone with an open mind. I understand what Matt was saying. JMHO though |
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Sorry all. I did my comparison yesterday. I'm so busy I can't get time to sit and write about it. Hopefully later today....
What for the Update. |
Matt, I've very much enjoyed your thread as some day in the not too distant future I too would like to upgrade my digital front end with a bias toward redbook. I am very interested in learning your observations regarding the aesthetix units. Finally, it has been my experience that it is truly very difficult to become familiar with a component and or system over a short time. My experience is that it takes familiarity and this takes weeks rather then minutes to fully appreciate what a specific component may contribute. It is a dilemma when one is investing significant dollars to hopefully improve ones system. |
Tbg.. OK I get it.
You now prefer the sound of solid state to tubes. |
I guess you might call me jaded I think that's an understatement, but there is a reality behind that sentiment. This hobby has a lot of issues. Its not something the chipper fanboys like to look at. Finally, I have participated in several double blind ratings of components including several 30 second exposures where you were to state whether it was the same or different. After these, I often got two or three to compare as you are. Very few of us have that frame of reference, and it often lays to waste our self-delusions. I tried to make this point earlier in the thread. A blinded session with the Lampi, ODSE, and Aesthetix Pandora would be most intriguing and disappointing to many. I've been involved in some fairly amateur recording sessions and have discovered that with current vibration and electrical isolation, many solidstate components sound less musical and more real like what I heard in the studio or theater. There is also a lot of truth to this. I have experimented with mechanical and electrical isolation, and the fruits can be profound. Both strip away veiling and can get you closer to being a believable auditory illusion. I have many friends in the SS camp who have pushed various grounding schemes to lunatic levels. In this context, tubes just add blur and veiling. I go back and forth on this one. I have a good sonic memory, and when a detail of the soundstage is missing (with tubes), I get irritated. This is one reason why I was waiving the flag for the Aeris early on based largely on Matt's verbiage and the "promise" of that piece with proper grounding schemes in place. ....I'm not really excited by the Lampizator or for that matter tubes in audio As a future Lampi owner, I am not offended by this. Its a free world (for now). That being said, Tbg should get a 7 in his hands..... |
Matt, you are doing a fine job ole chap, I, for one enjoy this thread alot, It has my vote for best thread of the year, I enjoy your context of words that you have when describing all that you are doing. Happy Listening! |
Tbg.. Is English a second language for you? Because I'm having trouble understanding your thoughts and ideas. In your first post you say that the vast majority of units you've owned sounded like tubes or like the Lampy but then you say it isn't your cup of tea.. You seemed to completely contradict yourself. |
Tbg: It is ridiculous for you to go to an audio show and hear a system for a few minutes with the Lampi in it and have any idea what contributions it makes or not relative to the rest of the system. If you have not heard it directly compared to another in a familiar setup, you have no idea what its sonic signature truly is. And 50 years of experience means nothing. |
Mattnshilp, I am curious about what you will conclude. You needed to understand that i've been in this hobby for 50 years. I'm not the least critical about your initial interest and thoroughness. I didn't dismiss the Lampizator for others, but it is just not my cup of tea.
I certainly have been interested in some components based on a written comment here and elsewhere, but it seldom, if ever, is a shoot out. It usually is based on enthusiasm and my finding more who are enthusiastic also.
The Lampizator is certainly an example. I even spent much time listening to it at CES. It is characteristic of tube units, which have been the vast majority of components I've owned. I've been involved in some fairly amateur recording sessions and have discovered that with current vibration and electrical isolation, many solidstate components sound less musical and more real like what I heard in the studio or theater.
Finally, I have participated in several double blind ratings of components including several 30 second exposures where you were to state whether it was the same or different. After these, I often got two or three to compare as you are.
I guess you might call me jaded, but I have a handful of friends whose opinions I trust.
Finally, I suspect there will be no conscience on which is best. |
Tbg - your post makes no sense to me on so many levels.
Most importantly is why you are even here if you think this thread is worthless. I have no problem with you thinking that at all, but why did you read it then???
And for you to dismiss the Lampy so cavalierly, or tubes in general, boggles my mind. I have the luxury of having heard the Lampy, recognizing its incredible strengths and it's few weaknesses.
I can't imagine that my comparisons haven't helped at least one person to get the audible flavor of some of the gear I have auditioned. If it doesn't help you I'm fine with that. But I'm sincerely hoping I have either helped, or at least stimulated, some of the other readers.
We are at 33 thousand views. So I'm thinking someone is enjoying reading this.... I may check this thread frequently, but I can't take credit for all 33 thousand views. Lol. |
Hello Tbg, Yes, in an ideal world personal auditioning in one's own system trumps all forms of verbal recommendations of course, but I think what keeps a lot of these threads alive is people being able to add their personal listening experience descriptors to a "What do you think about X" inquiry. Using terminology such as the 1980's vintage CJ amplifier is "a little fat/tubby in the bass with added ripeness in the mids" or that some brand of SS amp has a very "quick or incisive attack" or "razor sharp imaging" (pardon the old-school generalities) can be helpful in pointing people towards or away with particular makes/models. The fact that people here all listen...is far different than explaining to a blind-from-birth person why you prefer the color blue to red...
System synergy complicates things more, of course, but the sheer number of variables intrinsic to this hobby already add tremendous complications...as well as bring about "options" in personal taste...
Again, I think most of us are probably in agreement about the limitations of "Discussing Listening...".
Nevertheless these posts thrive under the common thread of our musical tastes and associated systems and equipment. Just 2 cents.
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Lissnr, while I'm not really excited by the Lampizator or for that matter tubes in audio, I have always been at a loss to understand why anyone would argue why X is better than Y verbally. This thread is a perfect useless endeavor by a very sincere guy. He has a great opportunity, if he can make a conclusion after comparing multiple dacs.
I don't agree that system synergy is a substantial problem. I have found some instances where some products are better with some systems, but it is just a matter of degree.
I think the best threads are those where people are already decided and share how a product works best for them, such as that for the Lampizator. |
Hello all...I've been following this rather long thread too. As a long-time chaser of the audio grail I find myself, like so many of us, getting closer and closer but never "done". My 2 cents about ultimate 16/44 dacs is my Lampizator Big 6...it just does that so wonderfully well...With Duelunds and some good NOS's it's as natural [to me and my visiting guests] as I've ever imagined reproduced music can get...Full disclosure is I'm moving to a 7 because I'd like to visit DSD at some point, I guess?/ and I can never get enough of this stuff...plus my good buddy has a hoard of those DHT tubes that I'll go crazy with swapping out for months & years? to come. Also, FWIW: my local buddy has the Coincident CSL pre and really likes it in his system (it sound's really really good), and I have my TRL Dude w/ Duelunds and NOS tubes (feeding TRL amps) which I love love love so...Charles1dad summed it up nicely in his last paragraph about system synergy and personal tastes...But I think we all kinda new that already. Happy Lissn'n |
Hi Abruce,
I believe that whatever system configuration makes you happiest is the way to go. I could relate entirely to Grannyring's experience, if you don't that's perfectly okay. We're all just doing our individual thing, that's all. If you're pleased with your Mac Mini then there's no logical reason to change what you have.
Charles, |
Grannyring, that's great you're still finding improvements.
We all get bored with our system and need a change sometimes. I use tube rolling and switching between SS and tube components. It's much easier than buying new gear. :-) |
07-07-14: Erikminer
@Kana813.. More acoustic are planned.. but it is the living room and I need to be somewhat conscious the aesthetics.. You mean conscious of the wife and her potential homicidal rage...:/ |
@Kana813.. More acoustic are planned.. but it is the living room and I need to be somewhat conscious the aesthetics.. |
Joecasey, one piece that will never leave is the Dude preamp! I have owned 3 of Paul's Dudes over the past 8 years or so. Each with various upgrades etc... |
Thanks Joecasey.
I get to hear lots of gear as I sell gear for Aphile friends and modify gear to learn and later sell. |
Interesting UPDATE:
I was approached by the owner of APL HiFi, Alex Peychev, and offered an audition of his DSD-S. This is an $8K DAC, all hand built with lots of high end doo dads, gizmos and proprietary thingamabobs that we audiophiles love to have in our gear! Relatively boutique line so not super well known. Both PCM and DSD compatable. Feel free to do a google search to learn more about it, it has very impressive specs.
I'll post my update/review when I get it in and give it a listen.
Wednesday is soon approaching for my ODSE vs DS battle. I'll keep you posted. The DS is steeping and the ODSE is resting up for the big fight. |
The problem is that an orchestra is not the funnest thing to coordinate and you are less likely to get the world class performers you want into your hall. Besides, musicians tend to not like being called up to play unfamiliar pieces at odd hours. On the other hand they do not like playing the same thing over and again either. |
The problem is that an orchestra is not the funnest thing to coordinate and you are less likely to get the world class performers you want into your hall. Besides, musicians tend to not like being called up to play unfamiliar pieces at odd hours. On the other hand they do not like playing the same thing over and again either. |
07-05-14: Kana813
If cost was no object for PCM, I would buy an American made DAC with dealers like the Berkeley Alpha Reference.
Kana813 (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread) Not sure if that would possess the appropriate tonality for his system based on the verbiage so far. 07-06-14: Erikminer
Cost no object ? Purpose built acoustically and aesthetically perfect room. That is the truth. To do it right, its a lot more money than a mid-tier, upper level dac, but its worth it. Dacs come and go like the wind. Rooms do not. |
Erikminer,
You have a very nice room that could benefit from some treatments other than the RoomTunes Tuning Products.
Check out:
http://www.vicousticusa.com/VN/Musicbroadcast/ProdutoInfo.asp?Id=49 |
Cost no object ? Purpose built acoustically and aesthetically perfect room. |
07-05-14: Grannyring
I like my Romulus player more than the Lampi/Offramp combo. It is an amazing player that is so natural and full bodied in presentation. Very few know about it, but it draws me into the music more and is just more musical to me. Aphile terms don't explain it, just an ease that invites.
Remember, I don't have a computer front end anymore. If I did, then an Offramp and Dynamo power supply in front of the Romulus would be a must. The combo would be stellar I am sure. I just don't want to deal with the rigors of computer based audio at this time in my life. Downloads, ripping, back-up, computer details etc...
Right now my music collection is more enjoyable with the Romulus as a one box solution. I'll give you 3 months and you'll be on another bus. Never seen anyone cycle through more gear ... not a negative but just an observation from a new member. |
If cost were no object I would have an acoustically perfect concert hall in my home and live performances day and night. ;) |
If cost was no object for PCM, I would buy an American made DAC with dealers like the Berkeley Alpha Reference. |
If cost was no object, I would be getting a Lampy Big7 with no USB converter as, I hear the straight USB implementation is that good.
The DHT tube design is da bomb and this is coming from my pal who owns a Hugo, Direct Stream, MSB Platinum stack with Galaxy 2 clock upgrade, a Mytek and a GD Master 7. Sez its the best PCM he ever heard and he is DSD freak.
I'm just saying. |
Charles my answer back to your statement is why fool around with CDs
Also not all Mac Minis are created equal, there's a lot of software manipulation, upgrading, not to mention software players, different rippers,data formats, power supply upgrades, running on battery etc etc
I would love to hear an ODSE in my system against my USB only Lampi Big 5
I really enjoy this thread, as good as anything I've seen on this site in a long time |
Grannyring,
I understand. As I mentioned on my system page I heard the Romulus Signature 2 days ago. Utterly musically impressive in the best sense of that term. With that gorgeous sound why fool around with a computer? Yes I understand.
Charles, |
Matt.. If you tap the little "gear" symbol in the top left corner of the front panel display it will show you the firmware version. There's currently two versions 6115 and 5407 the display will say fpga and either 61 or 54, 6115 is the newer one, but some like the older 5407 better .. |
I like my Romulus player more than the Lampi/Offramp combo. It is an amazing player that is so natural and full bodied in presentation. Very few know about it, but it draws me into the music more and is just more musical to me. Aphile terms don't explain it, just an ease that invites.
Remember, I don't have a computer front end anymore. If I did, then an Offramp and Dynamo power supply in front of the Romulus would be a must. The combo would be stellar I am sure. I just don't want to deal with the rigors of computer based audio at this time in my life. Downloads, ripping, back-up, computer details etc...
Right now my music collection is more enjoyable with the Romulus as a one box solution. |
Good point Charles1dad, LOL!, however, I have followed this thread from the beginning, Matt's tast in sound is alot like my own, He has got my interest jumping about the ODSE! |
Grannyring,
You're expressing much admiration for Steve's Empirical Audio products. Are there any regrets now that you've moved on to your Aesthetix Romulus or am I misreading your comments? Lampy with Off Ramp vs Romulus CD player.
Charles, |
Matt, agree 100% with everything you shared. Ya, to add the cost off the Offramp and Dynamo power supply to the Aeris or Big 6 is more money. These combos may well sound better to you, but it does come at a price.
I firmly believe a Lampi L4 with the Offramp and Dynamo sound better than a Big 6 alone with a Mini. You see what I am saying. Give whatever dac your listening to the best fuel you can with your Mini.
I am sure the OD dac is stellar on its own and with Steve's OR technology built in, it will be no surprise to me if you end up keeping it over all others!
I have tasted what Steve's units can do for digital and it is very special. Sure, other gear may do this or that Aphile thing better, but the music sounds so darn real and natural. You have no idea your listening to a digital front end. Very special. Hard to live without once you have had it in your room. All glare and digital artifacts are banished and the music just flows with less of an electronic nature to it. |
No idea.
I've been hammered at work, again.
I'm going to play with that stuff early next week.
I will do the upgrade before the shootout. I promise. |
Matt what version firmware does your DS have? |
DS will be interesting. A reviewer found equally excellent results from all digital inputs where with PWD MKII, bridge was the best. So with DS, maybe don't need OffRamp for best results?
From the review:
www.audiophilia.com/wp/?p=13620
/**********************************/
Because I was perplexed by my observations that the DS (unlike the PWD) was insensitive to USB versus ethernet (for sound quality), I asked him about such things.
Smith: ‘I’ve tried to make the DirectStream as input agnostic as I can: the FPGA knows no difference between the HDMI socket I2S inputs, USB or the Bridge (all are I2S to the FPGA). Any differences that are left are things like ground loops and radiation from high speed signals that might interfere with the rest of an audio system.
/**********************************/
If I was in the market for a new DAC, I would investigating something like Bryston BDP-2 to stream the data. It buffers data before play so SQ will be same from all storage device types, don't need a computer ... |
Oops. Accidentally hit enter.
Grannyring - my ears obviously agree with your logic as I consistently chose the ODSE over the other DAC's, and the ODSE is essentially an Offramp AND a DAC in one unit. Is it the Offramp alone that makes me like the ODSE more? Or the DAC unit? Or their synergy? I don't know.
In essence, I took your advice and chose to use the Offramp. Just inside the DAC I picked.
I totally understand that you think this exercise was jaded as I should have been using the OffRamp from the start with my Mini to give the other DAC's the best source possible. And your probably right. So the ODSE had an unfair advantage with it's built in OffRamp. To use your analoge, I was running the ODSE with rocket fuel while the Lampy and Aeris got regular octane fuel.
Basically your implying that the ODSE is essentially a $4k DAC with a built in $3k OffRamp. So the DAC isn't really in the same class as the other DAC's I'm comparing.
Sadly, I just don't have the extra $3+K to invest at this time to test that.
So:
ODSE - about $7'ish k retail
Aeris - $9800 + $3k for Offramp + $500 in cables = $13,300
Big 6 - $8k + $3k + $500 = $11,500
Let's see how the DS does next Wed.
Maybe I can convince Steve to send me a fully loaded OffRamp and SPDIF cable for a day or 2 to see if you are right...
But I feel that I have asked a lot of him already. |
I appreciate your input Grannyring. I understand your point. Thank you. |
$250 digital cable and $14 power cord is what you need. The $3200 turns a $3200 dac into something you may like even more. That is most logical. I understand you are at a place where you just choose not to learn more.
That's fine, but I stand behind the sound logic in my statement. |
I understand that the Off Ramp has the capacity to improve the USB output of my Mini. To me, it is illogical to need to add a $3k accessory plus another $1k for a good cable plus power cable costs just to "improve" a $10k DAC to sound like the $7k ODSE sounds now (with the Off Ramp built into it). Maybe the Aeris/Offramp would sound better then the ODSE, maybe not. I'm not willing to pay that much more at this time.
I will continue to burn in the DS and give it a fair chance. Steve, having faith in his equipment, has generously offered to let me hold onto the ODSE until the final shootout next Wed.
I'll keep you posted. |
Matt, much opinion and suggestion has been given to you on this thread. You have handled it well and been a sport about it. Nothing, and I mean nothing, said here is more important then what Agear just shared.
The difference maker is Steve's Offramp technology in his dac. That IS the difference maker as the dac IS NOT as important as the transport. I went through this exercise and know first hand what the Offramp will do between any other dac and your Mini. It is absolutely transformational. I cannot possibly communicate in strong enough words how much better the Aeris or any SOTA dac will sound with the Offramp in front of it. This is a fact with any computer based transport like the Mini.
I heard the very same differences in sound and would use the very same descriptors you used to describe your preference for the OD dac over the Aeris. It is the Offramp technology that gives this improvement Matt.
It's like comparing two high performance racing cars on the speed track and choosing one car over the other because one was feed jet fuel and the other low octane fuel. This analogy perfectly summarizes the real situation here. The two cars were not really compared.....the two fuels were!
You have not heard the Lampi or Aeris yet. You have not. Ya, these are very direct and strong words from me as I know first hand the truth of it and so want you to experience it yourself.
The offramp must be paired with the Dynamo power supply for what I shared to be true.
This road is not on the same beaten path as tube tweaks, cabling, etc...no it is the road less traveled and the pathway to computer based audio enlightenment. |
Thankyou Matt for the up-date, However, I had a feeling the ODSE would fair in the running, and I agree, Steve does deserve an aplaud for his work,BTW- It appears we may have similiar tast with sound given your descriptions of your last up-date, more than ever, I have great interest with your thread matt, Happy Listening. |
Very interesting Matt. Not to be perverse, but my only (repeated) suggestion would be to try the Aeris with Steve's Offramp. You would be surprised by how compromised a Mini can be. A lot of what is coming across with the Aeris (particularly in the upper frequencies) may simply be your transport.
I am also itching to her about the Aesthetix unit. In a perfect world, a head to head with the Lampi, ODSE and Aesthetix would have been spectacular. :(
Either way, a stellar performance Matt. Congrats and enjoy. |
Matt- Thanks for the little update on the DS.. Keep in mind that there are two firmware versions. Both are valid and both sound different from one another. Some folks love the new v.6115 some prefer the older v.5407.
One thing that's cool about the DS is that by using a FPGA instead of a fixed Dac chip ( like an ESS sabre) is that it can be tweaked for SQ improvements with just a download! |
