Tbg, I totally agree with you that a regular quality pot brings much better results compared to tiny devices.
Not sure if this will make any sense to you, but the attenuator in the DSD-S is a hybrid one and controlled by "tiny devices" too. However, the sound quality achieved has been tested against quality pots to make sure there is no loss of a sound quality.
Sorry, I cannot elaborate further, but thought you'd be happy to hear that the DSD-S hybrid attenuator does not sacrifice the superb audio quality of a good pot, step attenuator or a TVC.
Hope this explains it, at least to some point.
Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Aplhifi-usa, by "built-in attenuator" I assume you are speaking of a tiny device that controls volume rather than a pot. If so, in my experience such devices are nowhere near a quality pot. My BMC has such a device and sounds much superior when set with it out of the circuit and the pot of the Koda K 10 used. Maybe, however, I am wrong about what you are using. |
Audiolabyrinth,
Sorry about the confusion!
Initially you've asked if DSD-S sounds better direct to amplifiers.
What I tried explaining is that, it is not a feature of the DSD-S to sound better when connected to amplifiers. It sounds as it does regardless of where it is connected.
But with its output stage and built-in attenuator, the DSD-S is perfectly capable of eliminating any preamplifier, except if you need the additional analog inputs (or phono stage built-in), or you like the added coloration/noise/distortions of the preamplifier.
Bottom line, if you have only digital sources, you don't really need a preamplifier with the DSD-S. This will result in purer audio signal path that may be beneficial for many audio systems.
Hope this explains it better. :-)
Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Aplhifi-usa, Alex, I am confused here, did you make a clerical error?, you said, The DSD-S does not sound better running direct to amplifiers.., Then you said,Your system will sound better without the pre-amp, mmmm, which is it? |
Hi Alex, Are you saying that your DSD-S sounds better running direct to amplifiers?, you have a volume control on it?, explain what type of volume control it has, and how it benefits over a pre-amp. Hi, What I am saying is that the non-negative feedback pure class-A MOSFET output of the DSD-S is more powerful than any preamp I am aware of and can drive any power amp direct without a problem. The built in hybrid attenuator with 0.5dB step is completely lossless and offers exceptional sound quality. The DSD-S does not sound better running direct to amplifiers, your system will sound better without the preamp. :-) Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
|
Look Ma, I'm famous!!!!
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/17/172891.html |
Hi Guido,
Yes, the Aeris has the FPGA but also the AD1895A asynchronous sample rate converter connected to it.
Sure, I understand that your only digital source is the S/PDIF output of the X-01.
To be honest with you, the X-01 requires some redesign work in order to become a good sounding digital transport, at least to my standards. It is also possible converting the X-01 to a CD/SACD transport that will work with the DSD-S via proprietary digital connection.
CD data is converted to double DSD128, while SACD is native DSD64.
The audio quality achieved is quite nice. :-)
Saluti,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
08-04-14: Guidocorona
Hi AGear, somehow the URL of the AA thread in question did not make it to your post... Mind reposting it? Tried before but failed. You can Google it. I have always found it interesting to observe the little subcultures that develop in various sites. Most seem to look down their noses at their counterparts...:/ |
Hi AGear, somehow the URL of the AA thread in question did not make it to your post... Mind reposting it?
Thanks, G. |
Hi Alex, Are you saying that your DSD-S sounds better running direct to amplifiers?, you have a volume control on it?, explain what type of volume control it has, and how it benefits over a pre-amp. |
some rather acidic commentary over on the Asylum regarding this thread. A thread about a thread! Now that's notoriety!
"Ultimate DAC shootout on Audiogon" |
Hi Alex, in Aeris, jitter removal is executed in an FPGA rather than inside the DAC.
BTW, my own system has the opposite limitation of Matt's... only supported digital out from my battle-hardened X-01 seems to be SPDIF.
Cari saluti, G. |
I have been through this as well guys....
I can't connect more then one DAC to my Mac at a time. It won't link to 2 at once. I have no other USB digital source to use to burn in a second DAC.
It's one at a time. No other choice....
I'll speak to Alex privately to arrange things. I might be able to get it to a reviewer I know for the 4 weeks that the ODSE cooks so it's not just sitting.
Alex seamed to be ok with me holding onto it for a bit tho. He seams to be a really good guy. |
I hope Alex is willing for me to hold onto the unit for 45 more days to really give it the chance it deserves… He has been very generous thus far. Perhaps you can do your part to try to reduce that time. Regards, |
Hi Matt, any chance of you performing break-in of OD and DSD-S in parallel? Would shorten the total process.... E.g. If your MacMini were capable of engaging two USB outs at a time.... Or you fed one device via MacMini and the other via any other source, like a cheap computer or CDp.... The outputs of Both DACs would need to be connected to an active load.... But your Criterion has plenty of spare inputs.... For the purpose of break-in, it really should not matter the quality of the connecting cables....
One of the side benefits is that that you might be able to engage the devices for more than a total of 700 hours each.... And still take less time than your estimate.
G. |
oops.
"The DSD-D does DSD, which the ODSE does not. But I have no interest in DSD as a source (for now). "
that should say DSD-S |
Keep in mind. My comments about USB inputs refers to all I have heard up to this point (NOT including the DSD-S, which I have yet to evaluate). To my ears, in my system, the ODSE is the best DAC I have heard thus far. I can not determine if that is due to the improved USB processing or just a better DAC with better parts and design. Who knows. Since I have no interest in SPDIF, I don't care. It sounds amazing and I am just giving it the credit it deserves.
Abruce - If I like the DSD better, then I will wait for Steve's newer mods and try them on my current ODSE (which is still stilling in its boxes) to see which performs better. At the end of the day, I'm not married to Steve and his Over Drive DAC. The point of my thread is to find the best DAC for 16/44 I can. If the DSD-S bests the ODSE (even with the upcoming upgrades) then I will sell my ODSE and go for a DSD-S. But lets wait until I actually LISTEN to the DSD-S to see how it is before we jump the gun….
The DSD-D does DSD, which the ODSE does not. But I have no interest in DSD as a source (for now).
I will let Alex explain better, but the DSD product converts all its input (PCM as well) immediately to DSD like the Direct Stream and all of Meitner's gear.
I am looking forward to Wednesday to take my first listen.
Unfortunately, with a brand new ODSE comes the need to really burn it in. Which means at least 3-4 weeks of constant play to get what I heard from the demo unit. With my added week, the DSD-S that I have will have a total of about 468 hours on it. Which means even the DSD still needs an additional 10 days more burn in to get to 700h.
I am thinking I will cook the DSD-S for the additional 10 days first. Then let it sit on the shelf for the month and burn in my new ODSE. Then, I'll run the DSD-S for a 24h run before comparing the two directly. I won't know which is better until they are both fully broken in and being played head to head.
I hope Alex is willing for me to hold onto the unit for 45 more days to really give it the chance it deserves… He has been very generous thus far.
If there is one thing I have learned with this project, its that these single guys (Lampy, Empirical, APL) REALLY know how to make gear and what you pay for is the best damn gear you can get instead of marketing/advertising/overhead.
My amps are the same. Merrill Audio makes ridiculously good gear! My amps are just off the chart good!
What a crazy hobby!!! |
Steve,
My digital products have been featuring custom proprietary 32 bit XMOS interfaces for almost 2 years now.
PCM, PCM and DSD, and DSD only versions are available.
The DSD-S has the XMOS inside, and features the so called "Femto Clocks" too.
Welcome on board, I am happy for you!
Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Matt - I actually offered my USB interface module to a couple of big manufacturers. It was not cheap, but not overly expensive either. They were too cheap to even try one. They are pinching pennies trying to eek out as much profit as possible. Those marketing guys don't come cheap and neither do the ads.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"Steve, as we both know, S/PDIF is a very jittery interface when it comes to a Master Clock recovery."
Alex - That used to be the case, but with the latest receiver chips, good transformers, good circuit design/layout and a good 75 ohm cable, it is just as transparent as a good USB interface. I am using right now my prototype Off-Ramp 6 XMOS interface driving my DAC with S/PDIF coax and its the best digital I have ever heard. Beats everything I have done previously. It matches my I2S for performance too.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Question for we lay people....why would breakin of any DAc be more than 200 hours? I've spoken to many manufacturers as well as engineers and have been told that the biggest thing to break in are the capacitors and that even with the amount of silver used etc...they shouldn't need more than 200 hours to break in.
Are these folks mislead? Thanks. |
Guido,
USB and S/PDIF are quite different interfaces. Though the TAS USB chip in the Aeris supports only up to 96k, I believe it also supports asynchronous mode. However, it looks like both S/PDIF and USB are being asynchronously resampled using the AD1895A ASRC chip. So maybe the USB chip is the problem, or the computer audio source used for the comparison was inferior to the S/PDIF source.
So it is tricky. :-)
Sure, I will let Matt stabilize it and then decide, no problem. But most interesting will be what will happen when the DSD-S is connected direct to the amplifiers.
Saluti,
Alex |
You are correct Alex, Aeris does not support bit rates greater than 96K under USB input... However, It has been reported to me that Aeris is preferable with SPDIF input over USB for material that is supported by both input protocols... On the other hand, my X-01 seems to have only SPDIF output, so I cannot verify the assertion in my own system.
I am not surprised that break-in time for your DSD might exceed 700 hours... I have observed the same with Aeris... I hope that Matt will be able to afford enough break-in time to stabilize DSD completely.... And then assess his preferences against OD, and... Aeris... Unless Aeris has been sold by then *Sighs!*.
G. |
I propose that ALL manufacturers establish the Off Ramp 5 (or whatever Steve's latest and greatest USB converter is) as their USB input processing of choice so that this is no longer an issue!!! The one that requires a driver for MAC because it is based on the older Cypress Semiconductor chip? Maybe when he offers XMOS based USB interface that supports 32 bit integer mode, up to 384kHz/32bit PCM as well as DSD64 and double DSD128 I'd consider joining ALL manufactures and use it in my products as a standard USB input. Wait, but I already have it! :-) Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Agreed.
I propose that ALL manufacturers establish the Off Ramp 5 (or whatever Steve's latest and greatest USB converter is) as their USB input processing of choice so that this is no longer an issue!!!
I am sure Steve would agree.
:) |
Hey Matt, I appreciate what you have done, and have read all as time has passed.
The USB input for any of these DAC's is the factor that determines the final outcome, using your source. This is obvious. I believe all the DAC's you have tried here are fully capable of being transparent. There are all too many DAC's out there that do not get the USB input right. Even DAC's that cost over $10K.
Being that PC or MAC is likely the main source for the masses, I feel you are exposing this shortcoming in these DAC's, and these companies need to get with it. Not that you are, but don't get discouraged by the few posters here that have not made the move to computer audio sources. They also need to get with it IMO.
Another REALLY great DAC with a remarkable USB input is the Auralic Vega. It is not the newest on the block, and the snobs here will have their opinions of that it is not in the same class.... But they really did get the USB input right on this DAC. Not to mention the DAC itself is just wonderful. I've compared this DAC to many DAC's. MANY! I feel that it would compete and likely beat many you have tried here. Says allot about this company being this would be the cheapest one you have yet tried. The only shortcoming with the Vega are the RCA outputs. They are not using the same discrete output that the balanced outputs are, and the difference here is not subtle. You are balanced so no worries. I urge you to try this DAC, just so you can see what is possible with a $3500 DAC done right. |
Matt,I did not mean to open up a can of worms asking if a transport was being used in the sound-off. It would have been something that would have been of great intrest to me...seeing that I am old school. Your work is indeed much appreciated and everyone here could agree with that comment. Keep up the great work and most of all...have fun with it!!!
Mark |
The other interesting part, if I may add, is that Aeris and ODSE probably use the same Analog Devices DAC chip - the AD1853, except if Steve hasn't gone for the flagship AD1955, but those are the two choices for the ODSE. :-)
So it would have been indeed interesting trying the Aeris with a modern USB to S/PDIF interface, though I personally believe that it still will not be up to the ODSE, IMO of course.
Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Steve, as we both know, S/PDIF is a very jittery interface when it comes to a Master Clock recovery. Synchronous or asynchronous re-clocking techniques have been long ago implemented to remedy the issue. So yes, S/PDIF can sound really good too.
Guido, the TAS1020 used as an USB interface inside the Aeris is an older chip that cannot process more than 96kHz PCM rates. So maybe this is the reason they prefer S/PDIF connection.
When it comes to DSD-S break-in, I have sent one that had at least 700 hours to a customer in Canada. He claims that it continues to improve. :-)
Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Tbg,
I didn't state it clearly. What I meant was that I wouldn't have expected it to be used as a primary source since so many don't use transports anymore, although I do.
Sorry for the confusion. |
Matt
What if the DSD is better than the Dac you purchased? |
Matt, I could not have said it better myself.... You never asserted that you were going on a quest to discover the "best" digital front end.... You stated very clearly from the very beginning that you were trying to identify the DAC component that you prefered for your own system, cabling, and musical/sonic preference... I do not understand what is so difficult about this concept folks!
Just one minor correction... The Rowland team uses Aeris with SPDIF input because they prefer its sound/music than from USB wires of the same length and brand.... The ability of running longer lengths of wiring using SPDIF 75 Ohm coax without degradation is purely icing on the audible cake.
All... Whether Empirical on SPDIF would be preferable to Aeris in a prticular system and for a particular end user, or perhaps the opposite, Is something I will not venture to guess.... I have no direct experience with OD, and any such "beliefs" have no valid foundation without live experience in a controlled environment... But all of this remains a moot point, as Matt's front end feeds a USB protocol into the DAC, and will not change in the foreseeable future.
Besides, there is a new fascinating contender in Matt's grand quest... Alex's APL DSD... Let us see how Matt likes it once it stabilizes completely.... Matt, I am very much looking forward to your well thought findings... Alex, what do you expect to be the complete break-in time for your lovely DAC?
Saluti, Guido
|
Matt, I understand your position, This is about what's best for you, I also understand you are not willing to spend the money for quality cables, A usb cable, no matter the cost is just inferior, and you are correct, A usb cable will not cost thousands of dollars, what I am saying though, Is you will NEVER achieve getting all the sound from the dac you can retrieve using any usb cable or DNLA, can you imagine all the cable companys that would go out of bussiness if a usb cable could out perform a world class spdif cable or analog interconnect?, I have enjoyed your thread, I appriciate what you have done here for all of us, Thankyou |
Roxy54, I really don't understand what you are saying, "I am also surprised that a transport was not being used at least as an alternative if not primary, since many don't use them any more." Should this not be either that a transport is being used or that transports are still being used by many?
I also used to greatly favor the SPDif over the USB, even asynchronous. Of course I thought Firewire was better yet, but now I am less offended by USB, especially with much better clocks. |
Matt,
My apologies. It has been a while, and you did reveal your source and purpose from the beginning. As you said, this is a search for your personal best, and what you discover may be a benefit to all of us, but you are not in the professional reviewers chair, and it is not your job to try a given DAC in every possible configuration.
Thanks for sharing all of your efforts. |
Steve,
Dont understate your Off Ramp 5 tech. Even the guys at Rowland admit that their DAC sounds better using a USB source converted externally to SPDIF then using their internal USB converter. They demo the Aeris at shows running SPDIF across the room (due to USB's limited length of run) from a computer outputting USB converted through an Audiophilleo2 USB to SPDIF converter.
Would it "Crush" the ODSE if run with an Off Ramp 5? I don't think so. Would it be better then your ODSE, who knows? I think it would improve it beyond the performance I heard using its internal USB input, which is a complement to you either way...
But all of this has been said before, and acknowledged. In fact, more then one participant has added that the Big 6 would sound significantly better if I ran it with an Off Ramp5.
As I said before, feel free to do what you think would sound best and report it here. I'd love to hear the results. |
Label me confused guys….
I started this thread and have listed (over and over again) the exact system layout, source, cables, equipment and intention. I repeatedly stated that my ONLY source for digital is my Core Audio modified Mac Mini running Amarra feeding a USB cable to my DAC. I have no need for spinning discs as my source is exceptional and provides me with the quality I desire and convenience I enjoy. Anyone who thought I was using a transport didn't read the thread from the beginning. I have been honest, open and sincere in my method and my equipment from the beginning.
As I have said many times, my ONLY intention was to find the best DAC for me. I'm not writing a review for a magazine nor trying to impress anyone with my skillful ear or elocution. I have neither the skillful ear nor the mastery of verse to publish or to consider a career in the review industry.
What I am doing is verbalizing my own opinions and findings as I go along this journey to help me better focus and understand my own thoughts. I also sincerely enjoy the additional feedback and suggestions I have been getting along the way.
"All dacs sound incredibly better with a quality Digital cable, and then running quality balanced analog interconnects from the dac to the pre-amp or direct to amplifier!"
I am using a top quality USB digital cable and top tier balanced interconnects as I have listed previously.
And to suggest that my USB cable is making things bright after I have listened to several of the words best DAC's and never once noted lasting brightness (other then what exists before burn in is complete) has no logic whatsoever. And, I mentioned the brightness just to give initial impressions and woefully regret saying it as everyone seamed to have grabbed onto that statement as if the trap door is open the the hangman's noose has clamped down tight. It was a fleeting notion during a single song that I am positive will be gone after a week of burn in.
I have no intention of trying each unit with both a USB and then a SPDIF input as I have no need to do that. I only need to audition the equipment with the source I use. Steve's Off Ramp 5 USB conversion is well respected and certainly has something to do with the fact that the ODSE sounds as good as it does for my needs. And the Aeris would unquestionably sound better if I ran an Off Ramp 5 as my USB to SPDIF conversion. We have gone down this conversation multiple times on this thread. I am not willing to spend the several thousand dollars for the Off Ramp 5 fully modified plus the cost of high quality SPDIF cables to improve upon a DAC. It stands on it's own, USB input and all.
Keep in mind that I spend hours and hours listening and then hours writing my impressions. Its time I truly don't have; but I do it because its enjoyable and helps me to solidify my decisions. For me to double my time by trying it all via USB and then SPDIF is beyond the time I have and beyond the scope of my needs.
I don't use a transport, and therefore am obligated to use my USB output from my one and only digital source, my Mac Mini.
I would love to see Steve modify a Mac Mini to have an SPDIF output straight off of the motherboard. But I know nothing of the tech involved to do that and would think that if it were possible, he would have done it already.
My attitude is simple. if its not from Empirical Audio then the USB input is probably not its best input and I will have to make due with the quality of USB input the DAC in the rack has. I am not going to add an OFf Ramp 5 to an already expensive DAC. Maybe the Aeris, the Big 6 or the Direct Stream would sound way better if I used them with a transport or with my Mac Mini running through an Off Ramp 5; I'm not willing to invest that additional amount when I can get the totally outrageous performance I am getting out of my ODSE.
I will tell you that the DSD-S is getting pretty damn good. I have to give it the time it needs yet, I am waiting until Wed. But the tiny second of brightness I noted is, I think, gone (with the same USB cable I have been using all along).
I hope that clears up any confusion. |
"In other words the Roland may crush the ODSE on SPDIF were as the ODSE sounds better due to it's USB implementation.."
I seriously doubt it. My S/PDIF is one of the best out there. If you drive it with my Off-Ramp 5, it is very close to the internal USB interface. I uses exactly the same path through the USB module. The internal USB interface is a bit better, but you expect that.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
|
Even though I have a DAC that I am happy with, I have been following this thread with some interest, and I am also surprised that a transport was not being used at least as an alternative if not primary, since many don't use them any more. What was a little more troubling as far as the validity of the results is the use of a USB cable.
It is still an interesting thread, and thanks to Matt. |
Matt is using a WireWorld Platinum Eclipse USB cable.. It's a good one but not necessarily always the best choice.. there seems to be much variation in USB cables and USB implementations..
And some Dac's don't sound nearly as good through their USB inputs as SPDIF, or vice versa .. The ODSE comes to mind since its an optimized for USB Dac.. So in some ways some of his impressions may not be accurate where the other Dac's are concerned.. In other words the Roland may crush the ODSE on SPDIF were as the ODSE sounds better due to it's USB implementation..
I think a better methodology for his testing might have been to use both a USB "and" a SPDIF source.. |
To bad,a quality transport would/could add a lot to the mix,at least for us dyed-in-the-wool spinners. Thanks. This is the reason why the DSD-S has a digital input on the back called DTR. Using the DTR input with the SDT-M digital transport that reads PCM (converted to DSD128) or native DSD from SD cards, the combo turns to an extremely nice sounding digital front-end that is practically impossible to beat with a computer digital source, at least in my experience. The DTR input can also be used with a disc spinning CD/SACD transport that has the same capabilities as the SD card one, but it is not yet available for US customers. Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
I wish to repeat this is a great thread...really enjoying it. Thanks for putting in all the time and effort, and equally appreciate all the insightful comments from others as well. |
I agree totally with Aolmrd1241, All this time of following this thread, I thought a transport was being used, Now that I have found out that it is not, this gives me a different perspective on the Imperical ODSE and other Dacs on this thread, as a matter of fact, The APL Dac that matt said sounded a little hard on the treble likly exsposed the use of a inferior cable like usb!!, I understand the Dac may need further burned in, However, All dacs sound incredibly better with a quality Digital cable, and then running quality balanced analog interconnects from the dac to the pre-amp or direct to amplifier! |
To bad,a quality transport would/could add a lot to the mix,at least for us dyed-in-the-wool spinners. Thanks. |
Aolmrd - No transport. Only source is my Core Audio modified Mac Mini running Amarra/iTunes via a Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB cable. I will be buying Audirvana software as well to try it out. |
Matt, with the exception of the fuse, the big L7 is fully tricked out. No other tubed dac comes with EML45s stock.
I will be adding a Synergistic quantum fuse when I get my 7 next week. |
"07-30-14: Mattnshilp
Mrd1241 - Empirical Audio ODSE is my current reference."
Thank-you Matt for the reply. I do appreciate your work, however unpleasant it probably is 8^)
What transport are you using with the ODSE?
Thanks.Mark |
Alex- Are the fuses top tier audiophile grade? Do you think upgrading is worthwhile? I welcome your input and comments as I did Steve during my eval of the ODSE. Matt, only the fuse marked 1.0A matters for the sound quality. The other one is for the standby power. After trying many well regarded fuses, I have chosen a certain type that sounds best for my application. So yes, you have topnotch "audiophile" fuse already installed. :-) Please note that the DSD-S is voiced as it is, without additional tweaks. Adding weight on top or nicer feet may result in different/better sound, but that is something you can do after you decide if you like the DSD-S or not. Just like Stillpoints made a difference on your "milled from solid aluminum" amplifiers, I am sure that such devices will improve any audio equipment. Coming back to your comments, the DSD-S can be anything else but harsh. Maybe the harshness in your system will go away with burn-in but, sometimes, it can be caused by cables or other components on the line, not capable of processing the energy present at the source. This is similar to a pinched garden hose. :-) Anyway, I'd suggest that you just let the DSD-S play for a week and then listen again. Then you can experiment with cables, for example. BTW, which outputs did you use for initial evaluation? Best, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Aplhifi-Alex, There you go again with the good humor, these days, It's not that often I get a good laugh, you said, There will be no damage to the unit even if you throw it ups style from 3-meters above ground,,, LOL!, my sentiments of ups period, I have went through all kinds of mishaps with ups!, I try my best to stay clear of them, from time to time, I am forced to accept frieght or packages from them, The frieght business model is alot safer bet, like to see them attempt to throw Frieght!, Ha,Ha. |
