Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD


Hi All.

Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.

I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.

Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?

All opinions welcome.

And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.

Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
mattnshilp
Service I got from resonessance was top notch. Ayon not so much. I only have experience with one piece and I won't be trying again. However, other stuff might be good. Too many brands to choose from and service is key. Anyway getting back to dacs resonessence invicta was preferred over ps audio in a recent dac shootout between some audio guys here in Texas.
Erikminer - thank you for spending more of my money. Something I didn't need any help with... Lol.

I will look into the Aurilic. Does it pull files out of my iTunes folder or do I need a separate designated folder?
Matt,

DSD-S will come back to you with its output stage biased with twice higher current compared to what it was before.

Also now it has Zero oversampling for PCM, compared to 8x oversampling earlier.

This made a good difference during experiments using all-solid state amplification here, so I've decided to see if you will hear it as an improvement in your system, or not. :-)

Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi
I had an Ayon Spirit MKIII for almost 3 years and it worked flawlessly the entire time.. so I can't comment on the CD players.. but the amps seem to be built great.. I also found that anytime I had a question about the amp Ayon USA was very helpful, I have an acquaintance that has a pair of the big Orthos monos that had an issue and Ayon was very helpful getting them repaired.

Matt as far as SPDIF cables go I'd really suggest that you borrow some from the Cable Company.. Lots of good ones under $1K Synergistic, Nordost, Shunyata, Wireworld, Audioquest to name a few.. Also you need to consider if you want to go RCA or AES..

And the other thing you may want to consider is the Mac Mini as a source.. There are a lot of folks that are dropping their Mini's in favor of the Auralic Aries as their streamer.. quite a few CAPS servers and Mac's are getting beat out my the Aries, something to consider..
"I'm at the point where I'm uber ahoy with my current ODSE DAC and system. And I know Steve has some upgrades coming that can make it even better. Now with my K-01 I've got a spinner and a top tier DAC to boot. "

That's supposed to be : uber happy. Lol.

And the K-01 comment implied that it was in addition to my already top tier ODSE. Not in replacement of my lovely little ODSE.
UPDATE:
No news on the manufacturer front. No additional responses.

Alex from APL, as he mentioned earlier, has modified his DSD-S DAC based on my findings and is sending it back to me for further evaluation. I am sincerely humbled. His desire to improve upon his product and make it more flexible and satisfying for a larger variety of ears is impressive. I will post when it arrives.

I have also made a new purchase. I had the opportunity to acquire an Esoteric K-01 for a price that was "too good to pass up." Yes, I am aware that Esoteric just announced a new K-01x will be released shortly. But considering the reputation, extreme quality and price level that the K-01 represents, I simply had no choice but to take advantage of the opportunity.

This offers me two new opportunities. Using the K-01 as a CD transport I can now offer opinions on other DAC's through the spdif input running from a well recognized top tier spinner. I do not have an spdif cable and welcome some suggestions for reasonably priced options. (Please don't suggest a $3k cable, cuz I ain't buying it. I'd prefer under $1k to be honest.)

The second opportunity is using the K-01 as a standalone DAC for my Mac Mini. I am actually bristling with curiosity to see how my beloved ODSE compares with a $20,400 retail world class recognized digital Titan. Hang on to your panty hose Steve, cuz I'm cranking up the competition. Lol.

My other option in that same price range, but not quite as good a deal (although I didn't negotiate further because the K-01 became available) was the DCS Puccini/u-clock combo. I was talked out of it by several friends and contributors of this very thread (off thread, of course). I wish I had the $$$ to bring in both and then sell one off.

Sadly, my email to Aesthetix about an audition of the Romulus Sig bounced back as undeliverable. Can anyone PM me their email address?

CTsooner and Audiolabyrynth - I admit, I have been warned. But I have also received PM and emails that the Ayon CD players can be stellar and magical (when not self Imholating).

I'm at the point where I'm uber ahoy with my current ODSE DAC and system. And I know Steve has some upgrades coming that can make it even better. Now with my K-01 I've got a spinner and a top tier DAC to boot.

I'm not honestly looking for more, or better equipment at this time. I need to get my gear into a better room, which will be a slow 6-9 month project that I will keep you updated on. I have to openly admit that I enjoy auditioning the gear and reporting it, it has become a separate part of the enjoyment of this hobby I have developed. I get why reviewers love what they do. I will continue to pursue new DAC's and CD sources and report on them as I can make it happen. Not necessarily to improve upon my own system (which I can't imagine won't happen as a byproduct along the way), but just to have fun and keep this thread going. If anyone can arrange an audition or hook me up with someone who can, please do.

This hobby is incredible. Every time I think I've squeezed as much enjoyment out of it as possible, it gives me something else.
@melbguy1 well I bought mine from that tube store and it was a huge debacle. No ayon cd2s for me ever again. It went bright and thin quick. The letters on the remote came off and then I got the most arrogant customer service I've ever had in my life. I wouldnt take an ayon product if the paid me to.
Keith, it serves you right buying a CD player from a Barbecue store! :D
Hi Ctsooner, I use to own a Brand new Ayon cd-2s digital player, I had it less than 90 days and the power board blew along with a couple of tubes, the player actually went up in smoke before my eyes!, I sent it back for warranty repair that covered 3 years, my response was that they blamed me and wanted $300.00 for the repair, took me four months of hell demanding a full refund that I eventually got, Not to be a pun here, however, I will never own or buy another Ayon anything!
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08-30-14: Calvinj
Resonessence mirus dac. Sounding good over here. Check it out.

I have "read" good things too. Made and manufactured in Canada like Exasound. Both seem like solid companies.
Matt, I read that and I my experience is polar opposite. So no real definitive learning based on this at all. So many variables to sort through that it becomes impossible to draw any universal conclusions. Have to try it yourself to ever know in your system...that is a fact.
I have not listened to one, however, my friend calvinj has this unit and likes it, It is the Resonessence Labs Mirus Dac, canadian made, check that out, won the most recent awards for best sound, and the designer is the creater of the ESS sabre chip!,May be worth looking into, considering the price of admission is under $6,000.00 for this top model they make, Happy listening.
To all interested tube-o-philes. Especially those that felt I should have tried an external USB converter and tube rolled the Lampy Big 6...

Please check out the "Taking the Lampizator Bug 6 to the next level" thread in this same forum. It is excellent and JaFox did everything with NOS tubes, upgrades/mods, and external USB converters that people wanted me to do. I'm SO glad he did all or this.
I have heard about the Antelope but never heard it.

It is supposed to be quite impressive, but I have never heard anything about its voicing. Warm? Analytical? etc….

Maybe I'll email them also. lol.
Has anyone heard the Antelope Zodiac Platinum DSD dac? Some are saying this is one of the best out there now.
08-28-14: Tbg
Agear, yes I did guess wrong it seems, but we will see in five years.

I have several comments. One is that I know you can get the old Tripoint Troys for a very good price, but I recently got a Troy Signature and will tell you that it is far superior, especially with the Troy SE grounding cables. I didn't say, however, that it wasn't more expensive.

Then there is the Tripoint Emperor which is outrageously expensive but to believe the AE show in Hong Kong reports just unbelievable.

The Signature was my goal. I have read all the verbiage about the Emperor. Crazy. I actually spent time with Miguel and the BMC boys at Axpona in Atlanta a few years back. We did an after hours demo, and it was impressive. Speakers were Lansche at the time.

With regard to your comment about the Lord willing and the creek don't rise, I'm soon to be 76 so I don't wait for anything.

I can see that! You are my Dad's age. He retired from the Biochemistry department at the University of Virginia about 7 years ago. He is no audiophile. Its birds, gardening and photography and streamed classical via a Sonos I bought him....
08-28-14: Mattnshilp
.... I want to work on a dedicated listening room - which will give me WAY bigger SQ improvements then changing my DAC.

I think that is wise. When my room was completed, I plopped a Bestbuy grade test system in there, and I was more taken by it versus my silly audiophile grade rig.

Congrats Matt on your spirit of experimentation here. I have been in that mode furiously for over two years and have lost my mojo a little due to fatigue. I did really want to hear your comparison of the tubed entities (ODSE, Lampi, Romulus), but oh well. Either way, you win. Congrats....
08-28-14: Phasecorrect
...there have been a lot fewer "quantum leap" products than the industry will care to admit...

true, true. particularly in the digital domain.
Agear, yes I did guess wrong it seems, but we will see in five years.

I have several comments. One is that I know you can get the old Tripoint Troys for a very good price, but I recently got a Troy Signature and will tell you that it is far superior, especially with the Troy SE grounding cables. I didn't say, however, that it wasn't more expensive.

Then there is the Tripoint Emperor which is outrageously expensive but to believe the AE show in Hong Kong reports just unbelievable.

I would also recommend that you listen to the BMC PureVox speakers.

With regard to your comment about the Lord willing and the creek don't rise, I'm soon to be 76 so I don't wait for anything.
Awsome!, Thanks Matt, I understand that the ODSE is it, no problem from me at all, just saying, we should all pitch in one way or the other to keep the shoot out rolling, maybe someone else out there can chime in on some comparison findings between two or more digital products, I have learned more than I can read about in magazines from here, and it's fun to interact with whats going on that you cannot do with a magazine!
UPDATE: (That was quick. Lol.)

Ok, so I shot out a bunch of emails to see if I can arrange some additional auditions. Emails were sent to companies that I received high volume PM's for DAC's & Transport/DAC's to include in the shoutout.

I have already heard back from two that are interested and checking into product availability.

I'll keep you posted.
Funny you ask, as I have been perseverating about that.

To be honest, I really want to hear the Romulus Sig. I will reach out to Aesthetix this week and see what they say.

I'm also intrigued by the next level Esoteric K-01x coming out soon. But it's price is extravagant compared to the other DAC's I've been hearing.

And although I have been repeatedly warned by some members on this thread, I am nonetheless intrigued by the Ayon CD5s and CD3sx, and would love to hear one.

But, I am thrilled with my ODSE and could happily live with it forever, it's that good. I'm trying to fight my pathologic need to constantly try something else that might be better. Anything that would beat the ODSE will do it by hairs, not buy leagues. I can't honestly imagine it getting much better (with my Mac mini source) then what the ODSE gives me, unless Steve betters his own product (upgrades the ODSE or maybe even a new, higher tier DAC)

The excess funds I had to buy some extra pieces of kit have now been redirected to a very expensive back yard project. And I want to work on a dedicated listening room - which will give me WAY bigger SQ improvements then changing my DAC.

So I guess the short answer is, yes I am done. Long live King ODSE!

If I have the opportunity to audition any other DAC's I will post. I am still aggressively interested in getting a Romulus in to hear. If I do, I will start as I usually do with my typical "UPDATE."

So keep checking the thread. Thanks to all!!!

Feel free to continue on here as the conversation seams to always weave in an interesting direction.
Matt, Are you going to officially conclude this shoot-out over?, Have you crowned the Empiracal audio ODSE the winner? or do you have some goodies coming down the turn pike, like The Romulas that I question, As to why it never made this dog fight, like I said, There is more than one place to get a Aeshetix pandora signature, Romulas signature, I bet the factory them selfs would indulge in such a shoot out here considering all the exsposure of views that you could tell Aesthetix of, cheers.
Audiophiles are highly insecure by nature...we contantly need validation from resources, publications, friends, etc...and the industry knows this..truth be told...there have been a lot fewer "quantum leap" products than the industry will care to admit...that being said...this is an exciting age...as the improvement of downloads suggests
Question was out of curiosity. You guys are raving about the Big7 and I am curious why the man that designed and builds them choses the Big6 over the Big7 for red book.
Agear, I never really ever thought that I was in a search, but in the early 1970s with my ARC electronics and Infinity Servostatic 1 speakers, I was very happy for over five years, until I learned of the 1As. Since then I have had 24 different speakers and many amps etc. I no longer would ever say I'm done with my system.

You are quite the restless soul Tbg. The question I posed to Matt was more allegorical in nature.

08-27-14: Tbg
My guess is that you will have nothing in your system other than your room in five years.

Your guess would be incorrect. Wifey wants to move in 2-3 years so I will have to build a new room. As for the equipment, the dac, power conditioner, a Tripoint Troy (pending), and the Moasaic cabling will most likely all be there. I am still deliberating on amplifiers. I do plan on moving up the food chain with Dale's speakers with the prospect of a larger room so the Illuminations may be gone. I also have my eye on the Trenner speakers from Austria for a second system fronted by the Auralic Aries and a Lampizator of some sort. This is all predicated on God granting me the time to do all this.
Tbg/Norm,

Nice review you wrote on the Zilplexes! Link here:

Zilplex Resonators Review Stereotimes

As far as I know, Franck Tchang has pioneered the acoustic resonators. Link here: Franck's Resonators

Have you auditioned both and what you think about how they compare?

I was introduced to Franck and his amazing resonators many years ago at Clement Perry's listening room. It was a miracle.

Now I have Platinum (front), Special Gold (rear), Silver (sides) and Pro Copper (low front).

Just curious!

Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi
Agear, I never really ever thought that I was in a search, but in the early 1970s with my ARC electronics and Infinity Servostatic 1 speakers, I was very happy for over five years, until I learned of the 1As. Since then I have had 24 different speakers and many amps etc. I no longer would ever say I'm done with my system.

I now am listening to only double DSD for digital and although I have an Exemplar eXpo Oppo 105 mod but very seldom use it. I am not going to bother with even universal players because I don't think anything but high definition downloads will be available in the future. Hang onto your cds. My guess is that you will have nothing in your system other than your room in five years.
Matt, I sat thru many demonstrations at CES where people hearing the demonstration expressed disbelief for what they heard. One guy sat thru another demonstration to be sure that no one changed anything when the Zilplexes were put into place. He didn't buy them, but I heard him tell a guy in the hall to give these things a listen.
08-26-14: Mattnshilp
I remember reading on another post that you felt the Big6 was the best of your bunch when it came to Red Book CD. In fact, I was going to pursue a Big7 until I read that. Do you feel that your Big7 is superior in regards to its USB input conversion and ability to unravel the zero's and one's of a Red Book data stream? The Big7 certainly is making a bigger buzz then the Big6 does.

Matt, how is this germane to your quest (which I thought was over)? What is the ODSE missing that keeps you up at night dreaming of other digital. My search is over.....:/
Wow, the great and powerful Lampizator has joined our ranks (no disrespect at all implied, I just couldn't pass up the opportunity with my slightly warped sense of humor). Now we have 3 engineer/designers on this thread. How cool is that!!! You are a most welcome addition to our little discussion.

I remember reading on another post that you felt the Big6 was the best of your bunch when it came to Red Book CD. In fact, I was going to pursue a Big7 until I read that. Do you feel that your Big7 is superior in regards to its USB input conversion and ability to unravel the zero's and one's of a Red Book data stream? The Big7 certainly is making a bigger buzz then the Big6 does.
Hi Lampizator,

Great to see you here. I see you mention a 'family member' of Zanden's TDA 1541 double-crown. What is your thinking on that chip and those that use it? Just curious.
Hi. Don't take my answer as biased because I am a manufacturer but first I am music lover and I get very emotional about ENGAGING sound. Like you I use red book and red book only. I don't care for anything else. My two advice are: for RB I would only use R2R dac chips and ZERO, I mean ZERO op-amps. These two advice will get you where you wanna be. So it could be as simple as TDA1543 one dollar dac chip with one FET transistor or something as radical as PCM1704 with triodes. Just my Polish 2c.
Digital to me is the hardest to get right versus any other component, but don't think analog is easy. You have the table, arm, cartridge to mate well with each other and then have to set up the cartridge which is no easy feat. You then need a great phono stage. Let me tell you analog aint easy, but the rewards can be great.
I think for me, this thread has shown me that digital is the most difficult part of my system to understand and then to get right. Like other components, I'll just figure out what I really want to spend and then make decisions based on what the dealers have and plug them into the systems and see what I like best and why. I just redid everything. It's not cheap for me, but it sounds great. Do I want it to sound better? Of course I do. I ended up getting a Music Hall DAC and a balance set of AQ Niagara cables to hook it up. Cabling made the world of difference and I figured that when I upgrade digital, I will keep the cables. I went with a Basis TT with MB Glider cart and a special Cloud 11 platform. It still sounds better to me than any of the top digital I've heard at the stores or in friends systems. I guess in time, I'll spend another 3k to upgrade storage, DAC or media server to make my life easier. I guess I'm still waiting for all this stuff to sort out and finally make it over the top to sound as good as the analog does. JMHO...I'm learning a lot here and thanks.
If there is one thing that I learn about all vibration, it is that mass helps a great deal. My present turntable weighs a hundred pounds and needs to be on a rack. It was a beast to get it there, as I was the only one around. At first I was somewhat disappointed with it until I realized that the Ikeda 407 tonearm was not very tightly mounted on the special mounting boards. So rigidity is also very important. But I suppose that with enough weight even rigidity might lose it importance to some degree.

I once had a Final Audio turntable which was solid copper with a 6 inch thick copper platter and substantial solid copper bearing. This assembly weighed 285 pounds. It just sat on the mounting board as did the column for the tone arm. It was thread driven by a substantial motor. There was no isolation at all. And it sounded fantastic when on my slab floor. It was nowhere near as good on a wooden shelf.
Hey, my Kuzma is only 140 pounds but be my guest beating it with any digital, cost no object. :-)

Paul,

Sure I understand. Yes, the monos sounded better when I've auditioned them at the Munich show. Better in terms of a cleaner top-end and overall more realistic and natural presentation.

Because of Matt's findings and many other people who are into NOS DACs, I have decided to give you guys an option for zero oversampling (no digital filters) so you get the same type of sound. :-)
To my ears, the top gets a tad blurry, but the mids shine. So maybe this little trade-off coloration will be good for some ears and systems. Shoot me off an email if you'd like to schedule DSD-S audition.

And specially for Guido, I am thinking about Zero, 2x, 4x and 8x selectable options with slow and sharp digital filter roll-off characteristics for CD resolution playback, but that will probably happen in a couple of months from now, right on time for a cool audition in the listening room. :-)

Anything else on the wish list? Just let me know. :-)

Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi
08-25-14: Phasecorrect
Fwiw...my brother in law was in the same dilemma...and spent a boat load on a premium dac ...suffice to say...it was a marginal improvement at best...but he at least got bragging rights out of it...haha

Phasecorrect, that's funny. What did he get and what did it replace? I too have experienced nominal changes in digital. I believe one of the reasons why this thread has so much traction is the population of philes in digital purgatory is pretty high and everyone is looking for an out. That being said, my Lampizator L7 being fed DSD (and RB for that matter) via an Auralic Aries is a quantum leap forward for moi....stunning.
The cost is really cheap, I mean it is more than my entire system!I suppose I am a guppie in the world of High-End audio, really, I would say that this turn table would be in the customer market of .99.999999% of a percent world wide, can you imagine tring to move this around in your listening room?, you could invite thieves inside of your home and say, if you can pick it up, it's yours, Ha, ha!
Fwiw...my brother in law was in the same dilemma...and spent a boat load on a premium dac ...suffice to say...it was a marginal improvement at best...but he at least got bragging rights out of it...haha
I'm very sorry all, but I just can't consider a turntable that weighs less then 1400 pounds! I mean, I must have standards!!!
Matt, see if you can borrow this 900 turntable for a shootout vs. your EA dac on select recordings.
Did you guys see the triangleArt $129,000.00,, 900 pound turntable that just got on the main sales screen of audiogon?, to many questions on this, one would be, why would anyone need a turntable of this pounds weight or cost?, not trying to change the topic here, really wanted all of you to check it out!
Keith, you should check details on the page that I have posted above. Seems there is only a partial upgrade path for original K-01 K-03 owners. I am not quite sure of the US MSRP of K-01X and K-03X... Probably K-01 hovering around $20K, but I am guessing.

G.
when does the New Esoteric spinners go on the market?, what kind of money are we talking here?, will there be availabile up-grades for the original K to the 01x and 03zx ?