I fear I take my dac to a jeweler for some mods and they switch to a less quality cap...er. I mean diamond. |
May I suggest an option sens-diamonds... Some users might prefer an understated look. G. |
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Steve, what is the function of the diamond in the volume knob?
G. |
Matt -the plan is to put either XMOS USB interface or Network Renderer Ethernet interface on the SX DAC. Still working on the XMOS prototype and almost ready to tape-out the network renderer module.
SX uses the same size chassis, but new panels and a new knob with a diamond in it.
Steve N.
Emmpirical Audio |
I have been consistently impressed with Empirical over the last many years. As new designs are discovered he offers mods at a nominal price. His most recent mod made the SPDIF converter obsolete with the odse. Matt, I agree that quality trumps price and break in time. I am sure the sx price will reflect those quality parts. |
Steve.
Burn in time doesn't bother me. I want the best sound possible. Please don't compromise on caps for burn in time. Use the best parts possible. |
@Mattnshilp
Have you played your PCM/red book converted to DSD on the PC/Mac by the player software?
I have been trying this out in a small way as a substitute for the Perfect Wave DSD, which impressed me to no end, and with the new firmware impressed me even more, this time in my own system.
I am thinking that one can have higher quality sound per $ if you do all the conversion math in the computer and exit to DAC a DSD stream via USB (or DLNA ethernet when it is really tried and tested adult tech) and forego a real output stage in the DAC leaving gain to the preamp thus making PS and gain electronics out of the cost equation and having S/PDIF as a convenience utility or not at all rather than being the main input. |
I have enjoyed reading your audio journey matt, very informative to say the least. |
12-14-14: Jwm
I sure would not spend past the 20K mark for a dac. As in one year there will be a new one at half the price and better. If you want to sell your old two year dac you will take a bath. Could you imagine spending 120k on the DCS stack and find something else better at 40k. Sorry with digital I'm not going the high expensive route. +1. Much like computers, the rate of change is high and thus large expenditures are plain foolish although guys playing that game have more money than they know what to do with. Furthermore, if Matt did a proper blinded shootout with multiple listeners and with some cheapo dacs in the rotation, the results would be surprising. Most people are scared to do that. If your go to dac is a $200 NOS chinese dac, other philes won't burn incense at your alter.... |
I sure would not spend past the 20K mark for a dac. As in one year there will be a new one at half the price and better. If you want to sell your old two year dac you will take a bath. Could you imagine spending 120k on the DCS stack and find something else better at 40k. Sorry with digital I'm not going the high expensive route. |
Steve- did you implement the XMOS into the ODSX ?
Panels and knobs? I thought you were using the same enclosure and form factor as the ODSE...
What was your solution regarding Ethernet vs usb input? |
Matt - have not heard the Trinity or even heard of it.
I have had the ODSX for many months now and I'm convinced that nothing out there beats it at any price. I'm in the process of trying Jupiter caps in place of Duelund. Duelunds take a long time to break in.
The production version of ODSX is coming along. Panels and knobs are in finishing process now.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
4orreal - yes you did. My bad. I love that, like my ODSE, it is designed to sound its best from its USB input and that it is a single box solution with the up sampling software and clock built in (like the MSB). I am surprised it doesn't have an external power supply like the MSB, but the designer actually went from a 3 box system with left and right power supply isolated and external to a single unit with built in PS. And the listening test I read about with it being compared to the DCS described is as more Musical. Color me intrigued.
As sources migrate over time from transport to server (which I think will be the trend) I am curious to see how that affects utilization of interconnect modality. According to the Trinity designer, USB is the best method to transfer asynchronous bytes. From what I understand, his transport is designed to best send signal via USB. I always thought I2S was the most direct path from transport to DAC. I have also read that many now think that Ethernet will be the best signal path for future digital.
Good things are coming my friends. |
Guys, I"m not trying to be a smartass at all, but how can any of us make a statement that something is of the best or sounds great if we haven't heard it? Just because something gets big press doesn't mean it sounds good and just because it it expensive or even costs more than another product doesn't mean it sounds better.
The one constant in this thread and the reason most are still interested is that Matt is actually listening to everything. Do I have Matt's ear? No, but the way he is sharing makes me think that I get a really good idea of what things can sound like IF they match my own system/room. It's a starting place and that's why some small companies need or love a thread like this as it helps them get their name out etc... It also keeps reminding me why I'm still a brick and mortar guy. I understand better why many of you love to just get stuff on the net and resell if you don't like it. When I was younger, I'd have been THAT guy possibly.
4orreal, this isn't against you at all. I know it seems that way, but please read closer to what my beef is and I think you'll understand. Again, it's my thing and not others. Thanks.
I will be doing my digital in a year or so as I want to wait a bit as things are just getting going. I wonder how dated these devices will get in two years from now??? That's a major reason some of us aren't 'on the bus' yet an are using a sub 1500k DAC and aren't even streaming yet etc... This thread continues to stay a classic and relevant because it's up to date and when things are upgrades, we hear about them right away. Thanks again Matt. Hope I haven't threadjacked... |
Oops. Forgot to add the Berkely super DAC lest someone berate me. It keeps falling off my radar because it doesn't have a USB input. And the current Mike Lavigne selection, Playback Designs. Or the really cool looking Antelope, which I have not heard but have read great things about. Or the Concert Fidelity tube DAC, which has its own cult following. So many to chose from.... We are lucky to have such wonderful choices. And in the right room, each can give their owner the magic we all so intensely seek. |
There are so many great DAC's these days. Some require more effort, some more $$$, some more room, some more cable. I could probably put a list together of the ten or so DAC's that's are keeping everyone excited. For example, the Phasure is supposed to be great, but requires the same tweaking and effort that a tube roller puts in to get that last bit of performance. I can tell you that even playing with the 3 upsampling settings and 3 filter settings on my k-01 was a timely process (of course, it was necessary and I found the best settings for me, but timely and tweaks nonetheless). The famed DCS stack has an impeccable reputation if your ok with 4 units taking up space and all of the expensive interconnects/power cords to feed them (upsampler/DAC/clock/transport) - I'm not; too costly and too much room occupied. Then, of course, there are the tubed wonders of the DAC world; Zanden, Ypsilon, Lampy, Wavelength, Aesthetix, etc - all different prices, all wonderful in the right system. I think that the Lampy 7, Romulus and Zanden are standing tall in their respective price points. Then we have MBS and Trinity which both intrigue me, as well as Alex's top tier M DAC which I hope to hear sooner or later. And of course, Steve is working on an uber version of my ODSE, the ODSX.
Yes, I am a card carrying member of the Taste Every Chocolate In The Box club. It's who I am; and why tube gear and solid state kit like the Phasure are not as intriguing to me. I'm learning so much as I progress. It's not just what's the best, because that's a silly concept; it's what's best in your system, with your ears and your room and your audio processing equipment in your brain.
That said, I do really want to hear the Allnic DAC and the Romulus SE and I would look forward to someone bringing over a Lampy 7 to listen to as well. I have read enough now to hear that there is a significant difference in sound between the 6 I heard so long ago and the current top tier 7. Although I will quite flatly say that I would prefer a solid state DAC in my rack unless a tubed variant blows me away. It's not tube replacement that bothers me (DAC's don't chew through tubes like amps and preamps), but the constant need to seek out the magic NOS tube to get the kit another step closer; it would eventually drive me to misery.
I'd like to hear that Light Harmonic DaVinci, Trinity DAC and the MSB Diamind DAC just to know what that level offers in comparison to what I currently own and have tasted.
I'm in the final stages of upgrading my system quite dramatically. I'll report more when it's finalized, although it's not really a surprise. Needless to say the system is taking a huge step towards a higher level of resolution, subtlety, finesse, dynamics, spacial definition and all around musical orgasmatronicon. |
Lol.
I actually have a relatively short list of DACs left (currently) to hear. But some of them are very expensive. I'll do it slowly. No Rush.
And I have a pretty good analog system. My Teres Audio table and Graham 2.2 arm are pretty darn good. The Denon cartridge is not the best, but it's pretty good. And I'm working on a phono stage upgrade. So the analog is there, do no fret.
The whole point of this wandering thread is Top Tier Red Book DAC. It's a lifelong goal. The rest of my system is metamorphosing into something quite miraculous as the upgrades, room build, and search progresses. The SW gets better and better, and the search is so much fun! I'm learning so much and meeting such nice people along the way. |
Mattnshilp I think you are on the quest to hear every dac on the planet, more power to you. If you continue there is no end to this task. I recommend to put your efforts into a good analog system. |
Its $52K, so….U can expect a lot for that.
I heard it with PSA Transport and Vivid Giya speakers.
It was very good, but the music was unfamiliar as were the speakers.
All this is a matter of taste, but the Trinity has a lot of cool tech inside. Analog oversampling, Lianotec, etc. |
Mattnshilp,
I mentioned the Trinity Dac on this thread several months back. I think it's one of the best out there although I have not heard it.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1398132150&openflup&1100&4#1100 |
Trinity DAC
Any thoughts?
It sounds like an Uber version of my ODSE.
Steve, have you heard a Trinity? |
And if your DAC supports USB thumbdrives, 1TB USB sticks are already available. See for example this hefty Kingston
device, currently priced at Amazon for $997:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00E65QM8O/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1418496148&sr=8-1
G. |
Sandisk has announced a 512GB full size SD/XC card in September 2014. List Price is a little steep at $799. This might be the largest SD/XC currently available. See:
http://www.theverge.com/2014/9/12/6139057/sandisks-512gb-sd-card-is-the-biggest-in-the-world
I suspect we might see 1TB cards in 12 to 18 months.... Meantime, 512GB in a solid state media player is nothing to sneeze about already. G. And this card targeting photographers and vidographers should be fast enough to minimize any jitter caused by data reads.
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Yup you don't end up worrying about the cables, transport or the cpu making any noise. It takes the cpu out of the equation after you store things on sdxc cards. |
Yes, the best thing about the Invicta is the built in SDXC TRANSPORT. This is the cleanest transport out there, really. I wish 1TB cards were out and were affordable. |
@mattnshilp. Yes that would be me I have the resonessence invicta dac. I use the sdxc card ps to listen to most of my music. I have someone upconvert my music to dsd using KORG audiogate and I use the sdxc cards that are 128gb and can hold about 30 albums in dsd. My friend Bob Spence recommended this option to me. I'm going to purchase the 256gb to get 60 albums on each. I prefer not to have my dac run through my computer. The sdxc cards allow me to do that. I love this dac and it will be with me for a long time. I heard the psaudio against it and it held its ground pretty good. I'm happy and won't be changing it. Great detail, weight, soundstage and imaging. Highly recommended!!! |
Anyone with experience with the Canadian Resonessence Labs Mirus DAC? |
One company that uses 'older' DAC chips and pulls off amazing sound is AMR. Their reference DAC is not only available at a killer price but also offers amazing results, very musical, detailed and pleasing! |
Hi Lloydc, Man!, I feel gullable at times, I fell for that,thanks for the realization of the truth, I take this thread serious, I bet they are laughing off their chairs, good one fellows. |
Beeswax - what you say is far from the real truth. The SQ of DACs has little to do with the generation of chips used. Async technology is a big improvement as far as reducing jitter, but the design and implementation are still much more important. Its really easy to use the latest and greatest chips and technology and achieve a really harsh and fatiguing sound. There rae dozens of examples of this out there. What is hard is to use older chips and achieve a really pleasing, analog sound, with no detail or frequencies masked.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I'm officially holding off on my next DAC audition (Allnic and Romulus) until my room is done. The guy who is providing some of my room treatments (Vicoustics) is also an Allnic dealer. I reached out to Joh about a January/Feb audition of the Romulus Sig; waiting to hear back from him.
Sheetrock goes up Sunday and next week. All electrical is done. Then spakle, molding, paint, carpet, treatments, furniture and stereo in. Realistically hoping for a mid to late January move in.
If any news, I'll update you on the Burmester situation. Keep your fingers crossed.
Has anyone heard the new Cary DAC? Is it a player? |
Audiolabyrinth, they are kidding. |
Kana813 and grannyring, pardon me, I tried to pull up the location that was provided of what the both of you are talking about with failure, please, I want to understand as to why the both of you are selling out? |
The DMC600SE is basically Cary's version of the Romulus Signature. No?
Its not a music server.... Its a dac with a Cd transport (previously known as a CD player)... |
Thanks for all the detail on the various options available with the K-01. I talked to dealer in Canada who is extremely experienced with Esoteric gear including the P-01/D-01, VU models of both, P-03/D-03 and as of late the P-02/D-02 and K-01/K-03. The dealer mentioned that the upgrade path is not finalized yet for K-01 to the X model and that the initial upgrade will be limited with a full upgrade from K-01 to X with all diffs accommodated might be in the $10K range.
Matt: Best of luck in your Burmester hunt/acquisition; let us know how it turns out. Send me an in-mail/PM to let me know what you are looking for on the K-01 as I may take this path though the P-02 and D-02 are still haunting me :-) |
More points of interest on the new Cary Audio DAC with on-board reclocker and separate independent solid state or vacuum tube analog output stages to choose.
So many new things to learn about DAC technology :-
http://www.caryaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/DMC-600-DMC-600SE-Features.pdf |
Here's the next "latest" on the market.
http://www.caryaudio.com/products/dmc-600se-digital-music-center/ |
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Kana and Grannyring - I have already spoken with cardas and they are upgrading my incoming iPhone Amp lightning connector to pure unobtainium coatings, MBL has replaced the speakers with omnidirectional full frequency response 310 pound behemoths and the 1800 watt amps are from Boulder. Of course, the iPhone is now completely immobile, but who really needs to go anywhere anyway?!? |
Agreed Beewax, although that may be the vaguest generalization I have agreed with in a while…
Yes, the best is the best, until something better comes along…
Einstein was the greatest proponent of that concept - he felt that his theories of relativity were simply the most accurate approximation of how the laws of physics work. He openly admitted that his theories were wrong, but that it would take someone smarter then him, and with better technology, to understand the next step of those theories and create a better and more accurate approximation. But until that happened, his were the best we had.
In fact, isn't it our very nature as humans (que the impassioned music) to constantly reinvent our successes and push the boundaries of yesterdays advances to make them tomorrows rung on a never ending ladder of advancements and technological achievements? Is it not our goal, neigh our responsibility, to ever strive for that top tier to enjoy it's wonders for but a moment as we rise again to climb the mountain of infinite altitude! For we, as audiophiles, have placed upon us the most passionate and unyielding drive to hear beyond hearing and step through the boundaries of science and art to realize the very core of our own musical reality and being.
Until the next best thing comes out, it's my goal to find the best there is right now. I'm happy I have undertaken this quest. I have learned tons along the way and look at all the new, wonderful, friends I made along the way!!
Amen!
Hallelujah! |
I believe audio DAC is nothing but electronic technology and technology improve daily. The absolute top tier DAC is the latest and newest DAC on the market such as the Asynchronous DACs. |
Matt,
We are actually in full agreement.
When I put up this list :-
"1. Cool, dry, lean, thin, fast -> FIR1/2
2. Warm, slow, boomy, laid-back -> SDLY 1/2
3. Balanced - DSD",
I meant that the settings to be used depends on the overall sound of a system or recording. So, if cool, dry, etc -> use FIR. If warm, slow, etc -> use SDLY. And in a well balanced system, the DSD setting is best.
Hope this clarifies.
As to your finding that the ODSE is better as a straight DAC, I predicted that in several posts back. :) What might improve your current SQ is the addition of a usb-spdif converter from the mac mini to the ODSE.
Cheers! J. |
12-03-14: Kana813
Matt,
I ordered an Amp Audio for my iPhone,so I no longer need an expensive hifi system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky9IIi5Qkoc#t=108 Very clever ad. So it enhances audio by tuning to your hearing, tastes and the environment around you? Can it really be tuned to the audiophile negative OCD nerd brain? |
I got one also and will be selling my system soon. |
Matt,
I ordered an Amp Audio for my iPhone,so I no longer need an expensive hifi system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky9IIi5Qkoc#t=108 |
Its all in the detail.
I found that the y2/4x setting (more 4x then y2) was more transparent and accurate then the DSD. You clearly give up accuracy for musicality going from 4x to DSD. There is a sense of tube warmth to the DSD/off setting that the Y2/4x doesn't offer me. Almost a tube vs solid state experience.
The y2/4x setting provides more accuracy, more high end extension (much more) and much better delineation of performers and instruments within space. Sound stage is about the same with both.
Jon2020 said that the S-dly settings are warm, slow, boomy and laid back. I find the DSD to be warm and more laid back. The S-dly settings are more cool and fast (as he described the FIR settings). Jon, can you describe the rest of your system? Im dying to see why we get so different results with the same settings. Are your settings well broken in? I didn't listen to the FIR settings, so I have no true opinion as they are not burned in….
Hope that helps…
Guido, the K-01 would freakin SING with your Aeris DAC!!!!! wink wink…. |
Hi Matt, can you tell us more detail about your preference of K-01 S-dly2/4X over DSD/off for classical music?
Saluti, Guido |
UPDATE:
Kana813 - you are the seller. Lol.
So what are you going to? And why the sale?
Zephyr - don't know what the differences are between K01 and the "x" variant. Newer, better algorithms, application of trickle down tech from their newest uber DAC & transport.... I don't know how that translates into audible improvements. Guido said that the X-01 to K-01 was a noticeable improvement. I know that the K-01 is partly upgradeable to an "x" but not completely (no, I have no idea what that means).
The K-01 is the best transport I have heard. I still choose my ODSE to play my Mac through, but I prefer the sound of the original CD spun through the k-01 and fed through the ODSE over running tunes from the Mac; it's a hair better, just a flea hair; albeit WAY less convenient.
I prefer the ODSE DAC over the K-01 with either CD or Mac as source. But it's a flavor thing. The K-01 is more technical and accurate while still retaining its musical power, but it's SO much more flexible with the adjustable settings. I could very very happily live with it forever and never look at another transport/DAC.
With that all said, I am putting it up for sale since I decided I still prefer my ODSE as a straight DAC, which will still be fed my Mac as my primary source. I need the $$$ since I have the opportunity to very possibly grab a Burmester 077 and 911mk3 for a great price. This would also mean my prized and absolutely fantastic Criterion pre-amp and Veritas amps (which sound absolutely amazing together, by the way) would also be for sale.
If anyone is interested in beginning talks on the K-01 (which is totally broken in), or my lovely Rowland Criterion or Merrill Audio Veritas amps then shoot me a PM.
I'm also going to touch base with my local dealer, John at Audio Connection, to see if I can borrow that Romulus Signature in the next few weeks for a day or so. I'm dying to hear it before I change anything!
Regarding the review/opinion: my listening session today reinforced my previous thoughts. I prefer the DSD/off setting for all music but classical. For classical I preferred Y2/4x.
I heard smaller differences between changing filters then changing sampling rates. I would say sampling rates were different types of ice cream (frozen yogurt, soft serve, hard ice cream) and filters were different favors of the same type; which makes sense if you think about it.
As I said I still prefer my ODSE as a DAC. CD source was ever so slightly preferable, but nothing remotely significant enough to give up the convenience of my Mac. I can get bigger differences with cable changes or room tunes. It was that subtle.
I'll keep everyone updated on my Burmester opportunity. |
Matt/Guido: Thank you both for all the data on your listening experiences with the K-01. If anyone has a chance to hear the new K-01x, please let me know. I'd like to know if it is worth waiting for or if the K-01 gets it 100% and the x is simply a newer approach to things.... |
